Fatalism is divine meticulous determinism for calvinists

Reformedguy said:
It does not say He did it by force or they were unwilling.
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It doesn't have to. You already admitted gunpoint is force. A person might be suddenly willing to flee or reconcile but still be unwilling to lose a fight to the death or just unwilling to die.
 
Kampioen said:
It doesn't have to. You already admitted gunpoint is force. A person might be suddenly willing to flee or reconcile but still be unwilling to lose a fight to the death or just unwilling to die.
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The thing about agreeing with you that gun Point forces somebody, is that you take it and run with it as if it were an admission you are right about your original claim...
 
ReverendRV said:
The thing about agreeing with you that gun Point forces somebody, is that you take it and run with it as if it were an admission you are right about your original claim...
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My assumption is that you believe it is not force (in context) because God predetermined both the "force" and the unwillingness to die such that being predetermined in both instances, force on God's part is not necessary and it all pans out to unconditional exhaustive predetemination in any conceivable way.

So technically if predetemination we're so, the Arminian wouldn't know the difference unless predetermined to think so, even beyond all seeming odds.

Am I correct?
 
Kampioen said:
My assumption is that you believe it is not force (in context) because God predetermined both the "force" and the unwillingness to die such that being predetermined in both instances, force on God's part is not necessary and it all pans out to unconditional exhaustive predetemination in any conceivable way.

So technically if predetemination we're so, the Arminian wouldn't know the difference unless predetermined to think so, even beyond all seeming odds.

Am I correct?
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No...

A husband is no more predetermined by his wife, than a wife is predetermined by her husband. God is Not predetermined by Man through Force, and Man is not predetermined by God through Force. These Agents make determinations for their better halves, but no one is forced against their Will...

The husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of a man. Determination does not take away from the wife or the man, because the wife and the man have a head. If your wife is forced because you are her head, then you are forced because God is your head. You are not forced...

And neither am I...
 
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ReverendRV said:
No...

A husband is no more predetermined by his wife, than a wife is predetermined by her husband. God is Not predetermined by Man through Force, and Man is not predetermined by God through Force. These Agents make determinations for their better halves, but no one is forced against their Will...

The husband is the head of his wife, and God is the head of a man. Determination does not take away from the wife or the man, because the wife and the man have a head. If your wife is forced because you are her head, then you are forced because God is your head. You are not forced...
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But their thoughts and actions are unconditionally exhaustively predetermined, so that they don't have to be forced, correct?

I'm not trying to be adversarial. Not this time anyway. At least I don't think I am.
 
Kampioen said:
But their thoughts and actions are unconditionally exhaustively predetermined, so that they don't have to be forced, correct?

I'm not trying to be adversarial. Not this time anyway. At least I don't think I am.
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Thanks for saying there can be a way that Spouses and Christians can be Predetermined without Force...
 
Rockson said:
Matthew 21:12 Jesus drove out the money changers. He was pretty emotional there.

John 11:35 Jesus wept at Lazarus's death

Luke 19:41 Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

Mark 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit...he was greived....again sounds like emotions

“And when He had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, He said unto the man, Stretch forth your hand.” Mk 3:5

I think you see a lot of emotionalism above.
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And I’ll add more deism too…
 
Rockson said:
Matthew 21:12 Jesus drove out the money changers. He was pretty emotional there.

John 11:35 Jesus wept at Lazarus's death

Luke 19:41 Jesus wept over Jerusalem.

Mark 8:12, And he sighed deeply in his spirit...he was greived....again sounds like emotions

“And when He had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, He said unto the man, Stretch forth your hand.” Mk 3:5

I think you see a lot of emotionalism above.
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That would be difficult to argue against those being examples of emotions from Jesus .
 
Reformedguy said:
Funny you bring up children trying to play the self righteous morality card. Tell us what God sent Amalek to do in 1 Samuel 15:3?
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Is that what I'm doing? OK now let's look at this. Should be known first by your saying this you actually do yes YES believe it was God's desire to see every and any atrocities done that has happened to human beings. Really Calvinist's should hold their head in shame in saying this but let's carry on. You asked about 1 Sam 15:3 as your defense. You say because God had the Amalekite children killed well that's the equivalent for you of the most indecent, gross impure atrocities, gross things unspeakable things done to children. Like rape, like locking them up in a room for years subjecting them to who knows what treatment. In your judgment one thing is the same as the other? It seems that's what you're wanting to say.

It most certainly is not! And you should know better to even suggest it! God had certain tribe cultures in the Promised Land totally exterminated for their sins were exceedingly great and they'd be a thorn in the flesh to Israel in all future days. Their children undoubtedly would have become offended and a future day and would have risen up against Israel then too, thus they were exterminated. This would have been fast and quick by the sword and I believe we can be fully confident all such children made heaven their home not past any age of accountably. There was no indication at ever that they were treated in a impure manner (you get what I mean by that right?) no indication they were locked up into rooms, famished, and exposed to all horrors imaginable. This is what I'm trying to tell you if you'll allow yourself to be reached with these words.

EVERYTHING that happens HAS NOT been ordained of God! So you actually want to hold that God has a spiritual and mental state that just longs and wants to see the most devilish acts imaginable put-upon poor innocents??!!!! Again, what did Jesus say, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt 18:5,6

So if you're going to compare the Amalekite issue to actual Horrors of Horrors of things unspeakable you most certainly have gone down a wrong path. Self-righteous you say? I hardly think so. Reformedguy how about just accept your position is extreme.
 
Kampioen said:
Perhaps you say they were predetermined so no force is involved. Is this the case?

I'm certainly unwilling to be forced off a cliff to die. Do you? Am I wrong?
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I am unwilling to be forced off a cliff to die, you are not wrong...

Well, you're not wrong about that. What you are wrong about is that Calvinists are teaching that God forces anyone off a cliff to die. We have our own Agency...
 
ReverendRV said:
I am unwilling to be forced off a cliff to die, you are not wrong...

Well, you're not wrong about that. What you are wrong about is that Calvinists are teaching that God forces anyone off a cliff to die. We have our own Agency...
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But God does intentionally predetermine, supposedly according to you, that someone will push someone off a cliff, and that someone will unwilling die. Correct?

If I deceived someone into accidently push someone off a cliff, then I didn't push him, just like God didn't push him. Correct? But God would be me responsible. Correct?
 
Rockson said:
Is that what I'm doing? OK now let's look at this. Should be known first by your saying this you actually do yes YES believe it was God's desire to see every and any atrocities done that has happened to human beings. Really Calvinist's should hold their head in shame in saying this but let's carry on. You asked about 1 Sam 15:3 as your defense. You say because God had the Amalekite children killed well that's the equivalent for you of the most indecent, gross impure atrocities, gross things unspeakable things done to children. Like rape, like locking them up in a room for years subjecting them to who knows what treatment. In your judgment one thing is the same as the other? It seems that's what you're wanting to say.

It most certainly is not! And you should know better to even suggest it! God had certain tribe cultures in the Promised Land totally exterminated for their sins were exceedingly great and they'd be a thorn in the flesh to Israel in all future days. Their children undoubtedly would have become offended and a future day and would have risen up against Israel then too, thus they were exterminated. This would have been fast and quick by the sword and I believe we can be fully confident all such children made heaven their home not past any age of accountably. There was no indication at ever that they were treated in a impure manner (you get what I mean by that right?) no indication they were locked up into rooms, famished, and exposed to all horrors imaginable. This is what I'm trying to tell you if you'll allow yourself to be reached with these words.

EVERYTHING that happens HAS NOT been ordained of God! So you actually want to hold that God has a spiritual and mental state that just longs and wants to see the most devilish acts imaginable put-upon poor innocents??!!!! Again, what did Jesus say, “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea." Matt 18:5,6

So if you're going to compare the Amalekite issue to actual Horrors of Horrors of things unspeakable you most certainly have gone down a wrong path. Self-righteous you say? I hardly think so. Reformedguy how about just accept your position is extreme.
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I did not say anything about defense. LOL, you did not answer my question. What did God send Amalek to do in 1 Samuel 15??

Rockson, how answering a question. Did God send Amalek to kill women and children? The answer should be yes. Now go back and read your post.
 
Rockson said:
So there you go again. So there's nothing in your consciousness which says it is wrong and would be wrong .... Remember ... you claim God ordains everything




Your confession claims he ordains everything. That's an action word. And that's an action you claim God wanted before they were born. And you claim God changes their whole mental state of things without his creation having any say in the matter. You'll always deny it of course but you have a robot theology. I'm satisfied to know that by far the majority of people would look at your beliefs that way. I just consider it a real shame you folk would consider the character of God is the way you think. So absolutely foreign to Jesus and the Father that Jesus came to reveal. There's a place in me that can imagine you're sincere. You think you're showing much humility to God as in EVERYTHING IS GOD. It sadly is none the less I feel a real misapplication of the word. I would hope at least some day some of you or others would choose to come out of it. Perhaps not but hope is always good. God Bless and PEACE.
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anything not of faith ... is Sin? if WE know in part, God knows in Whole. we see through a glass darkly .... God Doesn t.

we're not perfect yet, but God is? just imagine how all this can affect one's beliefs, teachings .... somewhere along the line becoming -- dogma ... much gotten from -- others -- who are going through /were going through the same dilemmas of understanding (knowing - partly, seeing - dimly / not full of light).

but what saves (can save one) from all this ... eventually (I believe, it seems logical) .... is to become / stay as a Child. able to learn new things -- level upon level and / or here a little, there a little ... we can grow -- and be corrected -- if any are not right / or incomplete / lopsided beliefs. the Bible even warns / tells us that if we do not become -- as a Child, we will never enter the Kingdom..

nor will any liars. let not many of you be teachers, the Bible tells us also. what we teach others, if wrong, and it ends up hurting them -- we reap what we sow. in that / such an instance -- over and over again teaching wrong or not as helpful things to others -- i.e. things that might depress a person (Calvinism) or keep them from growth, from going on to learn more -- from God / Spirit, or things that might cause a person to stagnate in growth or to never really work out their Salvation really, or to never even get near to entering the Kingdom (you must become as a Child, no liars in heaven, take my yoke upon you -- Jesus, ect., ect.) -- better it were that we sought more and continue to seek, than to lead / help lead to errors that stay around for years (dogma) with the person, and can / could -- in reality possibly drag them down -- for years to come.

better to point the Way. " but grow in grace and knowledge" ... "the just shall live by faith" (not by dogma, not by Calvinism, or any ism) ... "the body has many members" Romans 12:4 (not one, or of one kind) ... "narrow is the gate that leads" ... " if you love me keep my commandments" ... ect., and ect.

"…3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you." each has a measure of faith -- not all the same! what does that tell us about dogmas / doctrines / teachings of Men / Women -- of years past and today? a measure ... and to think soberly (as a child? not thinking we are all knowing -- like God ... yet -- or have -- the full measure of faith -- yet .... unless we actually, in reality, with full knowledge and light from God / Spirit actually, in reality, with full knowledge and wisdom and much help from the Spirit -- overflowing -- do / were to).
 
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