The many gods from which Jesus arises?

[The Pixie]

And this simply shows me that you didn't actually read the article, and that I should treat you like the Pixie I was previously warned about, who is entirely leprechaun-ish in your actions.
Demonstrating yourself entirely unreliable.

Then show the evidence.
I've already provided you with an academically sourced article that shows they were not.
But, hey. You are after all a leprechaun and therefore given to flights of fancy and delusion, seeking to delude others.

Here are some examples of virgin births from pagan religions. Some have alternative stories, but since when have religions worried about being consistent? None of them are much like Jesus. I am not claiming the details came from paganism - only the need for a miraculous birth.

Attis​

The daemon Agdistis is linked to both the birth and death of Attis. Agdistis had both female and male reproductive organs. The gods feared this and plotted his death. Tricked into swallowing a sleeping potion, the gods tied his male genitalia to his foot. He castrated himself when he woke and stood. His blood fell to earth fertilizing the ground. An almond tree grew where it fell. The daughter of the river god Sangarius, Nana, picked almonds from the tree and carried them at her bosom. The almonds disappeared and Nana became pregnant with Attis.

https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/gods/attis/

Alexander the Great​

Alexander was the son of King Philip II of Macedon and of Epirote princess Olympias. According to Plutarch (Alexander 3.1,3), Olympias was impregnated not by Philip, who was afraid of her and her affinity for sleeping in the company of snakes, but by Zeus. Plutarch (Alexander 2.2-3) relates that both Philip and Olympias dreamt of their son's future birth. Olympias dreamed of a loud burst of thunder and of lightning striking her womb. In Philip's dream, he sealed her womb with the seal of the lion.

Unique Facts About the Middle East: Alexander the Great

Unique Facts-Alexander the Great

www.sheppardsoftware.com

Romulus and Remus​

Romulus and Remus were twin brothers. Their mother, Rhea Silvia was the daughter of Numitor, king of Alba Longa, an ancient city of Latium. Before the twins are conceived, Rhea Silvia’s uncle Amulius takes power, kills Numitor’s male heirs and forces Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin. Vestal Virgins were charged with keeping a sacred fire that was never to be extinguished and were sworn to chastity.
However, Rhea Silvia conceives the twins. Most accounts claim their father was either the god Mars, or the demigod Hercules.

Origins of Rome: The Myth of Romulus and Remus

The citizens and scholars of Ancient Rome prided themselves on belonging to the greatest city in the world. Rome required a great foundation story,...

www.historyhit.com

Ra​

Another Egyptian god, Ra (the Sun), was said to have been born of a virgin mother, Net (or Neith), and to have had no father.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Virgin Birth Myth

www.hope-of-israel.org

Hephaestus​

Hesiod, however, claims that Hephaestus is solely Hera’s child and that she gave him birth by parthenogenesis to get back at her husband who had done the same with Athena.

⚒ Hephaestus :: Greek God of Blacksmiths and Fire

Hephaestus is the Greek god of blacksmiths, sculptors, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes; thus, he is symbolised with a hammer, an anvil and a pair of t...

www.greekmythology.com

Perseus​

Akrisios had locked up his daughter in an underground prison made of bronze after an oracle had declared that his future grandson would kill him. Of course, this was no barrier to Zeus who entered the cell as a shower of golden rain. Naturally, when the child was born, Akrisios was unwilling to believe Danae’s far-fetched story of the golden rain.

Perseus [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

lucianofsamosata.info

Horus​

After Osiris was brought back to the underworld, Isis now focused on revenge. She was impregnated by nature, which means Horus born of a virgin. Isis had the longest labor and went through many trials and tribulations in bringing Horus into this world safe and sound.

https://www.timelessmyths.com/mythology/when-was-horus-born/

 

[SteveB]

Sure, based on the fact that that ids the case for the vast majority of theists, whatever their religion, and the fact that you are unable to say why you think the Bible is true.

Well, isn't it nice to realize that since you don't actually want to know the truth while you're alive, and living, you'll get to find out when you die.
Won't that be exciting....

No I am not. You give me the evidence that the Bible is true, and we can see what I will do with it.

You already have been, by numerous other people on this forum and your standard practice is to discount, dismiss and disregard everything you want to, refusing to learn to do what Jesus said is necessary to actually know him and God.

Since you keep claiming that you're intelligent enough to think through it without any practical engagement, I'm thinking that you don't actually want to know the truth.
I.e., the truth is only knowable by hands on application. And since you refuse, you're explicitly saying that you don't actually want to know the truth.

But just quoting Bible verses that assume the Bible is true is never going to persuade it is true.

I quote the bible because I've learned over the course of 45+ years of learning, application and experience that it's Truth, epitomized.

No, I am just saying that of Christianity.

Pity you keep missing Jesus.
Well, further evidence that you don't actually want to know the truth.

How does that prove the virgin birth?

The virgin birth simply is. You'd actually have to travel to the past in order to see the event unfold in real time.
However, as that would require you to be able to see the seed of God mix with the egg of Mary, and you lack the necessary resources to make this possible, I'm quite sure that you could indeed see the whole thing and you'd still argue that it's not real.

Are you saying this is an all-or-nothing deal? Either it is all true, or none of it is?

Wow.... you're catching on.

If the prophets were never actually given the word to explain to us what YHVH was going to do, we'd never have been able to be prepared for it
Had God never impregnated Mary, with the seed of his Son, and it was just a regular human conception, the guy would have been just a normal person who had the normal human sin nature.
He required the nature of God to be able to overcome sin.
He required all the attributes to be what God describes for us in the Jewish bible.
He had to be God the Son in order to take on our sin and satisfy the righteousness and justice of the law of God.
God puts his stamp of approval, and acceptance of Jesus' death for sin by raising him from the dead.
As Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15-- no resurrection, and the whole thing is definitively proven to be a complete and total farce.

As it's stated regarding Jesus, in Luke 24, to the two men who he met on the road to Emmaus.... he taught them everything that is written in the law and prophets concerning himself....

Have you ever read or heard the poem about "for the want of a nail"?

https://www.citadel.edu/root/images/commandant/assistant-commandant-leadership/for-the-want-of-a-nail.pdf

In the case of Jesus,
For the want of a man to learn and speak, the word was lost. For the want of the word, the prophet was lost. For the want of the prophet hope was silent. For the silence, truth was lost. For the want of the truth, the Messiah wasn't recognized. For the lack of recognition of the Messiah, his message was lost. For the lack of the message, his voice was lost. For the lack of knowledge of his voice, eternity was lost.

I realize that you may have a problem with this idea, but ed very element of the bible, and the truth, regarding Jesus, if oneand element doesn't exist, the balance of them fall apart.

If Abraham hadn't been chosen to be the Friend of God, his descendants would never have been involved.
The key players, from Abraham through Jesus would each have been completely different people, with different mindsets, and values.

Something you should take the time to learn and to understand.

Why? Who decided that?

What does the bible say?
It's in there!

Do you think sex between a loving married couple is sinful?

My opinion is immaterial on the matter.
It's YHVH's word that matters.
Sex outside of marriage is described as a sin. Homosexual practices are described as a corruption of the natural design.

So, sin is about selfishness and has absolutely nothing to do with love.
Not the love described in the bible.

And an all-powerful god could only do that through virgin birth?

?
It's the way he chose to do it.

I think however since you have such a humongous ego, you should advise him, and explain why your ideas are better than his.

He did after all put up a job notice about it. Granted, it was posted back in the 8th century BCE.

Isa 40:14 WEB Who did he take counsel with, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of justice, and taught him knowledge, and showed him the way of understanding?

Pity you missed it.

And an all-powerful god could only do that through virgin birth? Why is that?

Ask him for yourself.
He's previously invited you to come and have a sit down with him.
Jesus even invited you to come and have dinner with him.


Isa 41:1 WEB “Keep silent before me, islands, and let the peoples renew their strength. Let them come near, then let them speak. Let’s meet together for judgment.

Isa 41:21 WEB Produce your cause,” says Yahweh. “Bring out your strong reasons!” says the King of Jacob.

Rev 3:20 WEB Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with me.

He's just waiting for you to take him up on his offer.

So just like you then Steve.

Did I ever say I was anything but human?
Jesus said that he came to save sinners.

Except that when challenged I can justify my assumptions with reasons that do not themselves rely on those same assumptions.

Uh, no actually. You can't. You never have been able to. I understand that you want others to believe that you are and can, but nothing you have ever stated has been a validation of truth.

You should look at the evidence. If he makes a claim, does he back it up it with reason and evidence - like I did at the start of this OP?

??

I think @JAG Actually describes it rather well in his comments to @Hypatia_Alexandria yesterday.
It was quite interesting the manner in which they stated it.
Your "tribe" will do whatever they think will achieve silencing the truth which my "tribe" has learned, and been instructed to make known to all tribes, across the whole world.

Or does he just continue to assert that his own assumptions are true, and his only rationale for believing those assumptions are in turn based on those same assumptions? You know, like you do?

??
Case in point.
Thank you for illustrating @JAG 's point so eloquently.
You really do make it so easy....

Personally, from my perspective, you are clearly not interested in knowing any truth that doesn't agree with your beliefs.

Not sure what you are saying here Steve.

It's pretty straightforward. So, if you're actually not able to understand, then I'd say that you have a cognitive block preventing you from being able to see clearly.
And that my dear fellow human being is something that requires medical attention.

Your second sentence there is pretty much agreeing with me, that Jewish Christians needed Jesus to be a direct male-line descendant of David.

Actually, it's contained in the Jewish bible.

You know.... that part of the bible that christianity calls the old testament. And Jewish people call the Tanakh.

Pity you never actually read it.

 

[SteveB]

You are aware of how sex works, right?

??‍??
Apparently you're not.

If it was a virgin birth, Jesus was not a direct male-line descendant of David..

That would explain why you don't actually know what you're talking about.
Mary's ancestry goes back to David, through his son Nathan.

Actually the article only states that three specific gods did not have virgin births - Mithra, Dionysus and, Horus.

It is interesting that image at the top mentions five gods, but they only address whether those three had virgin births. They omit Attis, who did indeed have a virgin birth. Other examples that I informed you about are Alexander the Great, Romulus and Remus, Ra, Hephaestus and Perseus.

Then by all means, feel free to contact the author and explain the problem to them.

I'm sure they'll appreciate your input.

You missed my point - pagans needed their gods to have miraculous births, and virgin births are just one example of that.

Did i?
I figured that your point was quite clear.
Or, are you telling me that once you saw my response, you realized how inane your point was and needed to change it, so it would appear more erudite than it actually was?
I think it's actually you who needed the pagans to have miraculous births, so you can more easily dismiss the fact that the Son of God can be dismissed by you, from consideration as the only Savior YHVH has explicitly given the human race.
It's ok Pixie. I get it. You actually like your sin, and you're not willing to give it up.
Jesus said that there are some people who simply love their sin more than they love the truth, and as such, refuse to come to the light, so their lives can be shown to be lived in the light of God and his love.

You just need to know that in spite of your unbelief, Jesus is exactly whom the bible says he is. And the results of your unbelief will result simply in your exclusion from paradise upon your death.

So, you actually have the most powerful choice you could ever have...
Your response to Jesus gains you access to the throne room of the creator of the cosmos.
You decide.

Talk me through the reasoning here Steve. What have I not read in the article do you think?

It's pretty clear.
You want the pagan cultures to give you the excuses you want to dismiss Jesus Christ as merely another pagan-sourced, and influence myth.

Your ongoing attempts at making sure you achieve your goals of sending yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish are quite obvious.

What I did see was a header that listed five gods that people claim are like Jesus, and that the article was supposed to refute, and yet it only actually addressed three of them. Did YOU notice that Steve?

I see by your comment that those three aren't enough to satisfy you.
I think that is exactly why you need to build a time machine and travel back in time.
It's long been obvious to me that you will give every excuse you can concoct to make sure you spend your eternity in the lake of fire.
It's been equally obvious to me that you have no interest whatsoever in actually knowing the truth. Otherwise, you would have previously engaged Jesus for yourself.

It's like you lack the faculty to comprehend that there are many things in this life that require you to personally engage in, in order for you to know, firsthand.
Sex is one.
Breathing....
Eating is another
As is drinking fluids.
Having a bowel movement, otherwise known as taking a cra8.
Urinating is yet another.

Nobody will ever be able to do any of these things for you and you gain the benefit from doing so.
These are fundamentally required to be alive.

The same goes for knowing God and Jesus.

Nobody else will ever be able to force you to engage in relationship with them. It's a choice you need to make for yourself.

Everything necessary to do so is given in the bible.
The next step is yours and yours alone.

What do you want?
You've spent several years demonstrating that you have every excuse imaginable to exclude yourself from knowing God.

At what point do you give yourself permission to engage him on his terms?

You you did not.

You you.... you... you you....
Reminds me of a joke...

You provided an article that showed that Mithra, Dionysus and Horus did not have a virgin birth.

Well, there you have it! You're really wracking up the excuses.
Congratulations.
You keep giving me evidence that you don't actually want to know the truth.

There is nothing about Alexander the Great, Romulus and Remus, Ra, Hephaestus and Perseus in the article.

Then travel back in time and find out for yourself.
After all, you clearly have no intention whatsoever of taking anything anyone says about Jesus seriously.

I have a question for you...

Explain why we should not believe that you are simply a coward?

Offensive, I agree.

But I think it's been plenty long enough that you literally do have everything necessary to engage YHVH on his terms.

Hmm, it is almost as though you have no read the article yourself... Surely not!

That would explain your ongoing cowardice.
In your mind you want to make sure that you deal with all 56,543,568,876 variations of the possibilities that we might actually be mistaken, before you step into the heretofore unknown realm of truth.
Not realizing, or, actually refusing to read/understand the innumerable times we've explained to you that YHVH is quite capable of making sure that you know the truth.
Which is why it's see easy to recognize that you're in love with the very things that are destroying your humanity.

Well I am not the one pretending to have read the article...

And yet here you are accusing me of not reading it. Apparently to feel better about killing yourself.

 

[SteveB]

Here are some examples of virgin births from pagan religions. Some have alternative stories, but since when have religions worried about being consistent? None of them are much like Jesus. I am not claiming the details came from paganism - only the need for a miraculous birth.

Attis​

The daemon Agdistis is linked to both the birth and death of Attis. Agdistis had both female and male reproductive organs. The gods feared this and plotted his death. Tricked into swallowing a sleeping potion, the gods tied his male genitalia to his foot. He castrated himself when he woke and stood. His blood fell to earth fertilizing the ground. An almond tree grew where it fell. The daughter of the river god Sangarius, Nana, picked almonds from the tree and carried them at her bosom. The almonds disappeared and Nana became pregnant with Attis.

https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/gods/attis/

Alexander the Great​

Alexander was the son of King Philip II of Macedon and of Epirote princess Olympias. According to Plutarch (Alexander 3.1,3), Olympias was impregnated not by Philip, who was afraid of her and her affinity for sleeping in the company of snakes, but by Zeus. Plutarch (Alexander 2.2-3) relates that both Philip and Olympias dreamt of their son's future birth. Olympias dreamed of a loud burst of thunder and of lightning striking her womb. In Philip's dream, he sealed her womb with the seal of the lion.

Unique Facts About the Middle East: Alexander the Great

Unique Facts-Alexander the Great

www.sheppardsoftware.com

Romulus and Remus​

Romulus and Remus were twin brothers. Their mother, Rhea Silvia was the daughter of Numitor, king of Alba Longa, an ancient city of Latium. Before the twins are conceived, Rhea Silvia’s uncle Amulius takes power, kills Numitor’s male heirs and forces Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin. Vestal Virgins were charged with keeping a sacred fire that was never to be extinguished and were sworn to chastity.
However, Rhea Silvia conceives the twins. Most accounts claim their father was either the god Mars, or the demigod Hercules.

Origins of Rome: The Myth of Romulus and Remus

The citizens and scholars of Ancient Rome prided themselves on belonging to the greatest city in the world. Rome required a great foundation story,...

www.historyhit.com

Ra​

Another Egyptian god, Ra (the Sun), was said to have been born of a virgin mother, Net (or Neith), and to have had no father.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Virgin Birth Myth

www.hope-of-israel.org

Hephaestus​

Hesiod, however, claims that Hephaestus is solely Hera’s child and that she gave him birth by parthenogenesis to get back at her husband who had done the same with Athena.

⚒ Hephaestus :: Greek God of Blacksmiths and Fire

Hephaestus is the Greek god of blacksmiths, sculptors, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes; thus, he is symbolised with a hammer, an anvil and a pair of t...

www.greekmythology.com

Perseus​

Akrisios had locked up his daughter in an underground prison made of bronze after an oracle had declared that his future grandson would kill him. Of course, this was no barrier to Zeus who entered the cell as a shower of golden rain. Naturally, when the child was born, Akrisios was unwilling to believe Danae’s far-fetched story of the golden rain.

Perseus [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

lucianofsamosata.info

Horus​

After Osiris was brought back to the underworld, Isis now focused on revenge. She was impregnated by nature, which means Horus born of a virgin. Isis had the longest labor and went through many trials and tribulations in bringing Horus into this world safe and sound.

https://www.timelessmyths.com/mythology/when-was-horus-born/

In other words, you didn't actually read the article.

Virgin birth?

As for Horus, he also had no virgin birth. Isis had sex with Osiris after reassembling his body parts which were torn apart and scattered over Egypt. As egyptologist and professor at the university of Arizona Dr. Richard Wilkinson has written,

“Through her magic Isis revivified the sexual member of Osiris and became pregnant by him, eventually giving birth to their child, Horus.” (6)

Historian and professor Françoise Dunand writes,

“AFTER HAVING SEXUAL INTERCOURSE, IN THE FORM OF A BIRD, WITH THE DEAD GOD SHE RESTORED TO LIFE, SHE GAVE BIRTH TO A POSTHUMOUS SON, HORUS.” (7)

 

[Eightcrackers]

Here are some examples of virgin births from pagan religions. Some have alternative stories, but since when have religions worried about being consistent? None of them are much like Jesus. I am not claiming the details came from paganism - only the need for a miraculous birth.

Attis​

The daemon Agdistis is linked to both the birth and death of Attis. Agdistis had both female and male reproductive organs. The gods feared this and plotted his death. Tricked into swallowing a sleeping potion, the gods tied his male genitalia to his foot. He castrated himself when he woke and stood. His blood fell to earth fertilizing the ground. An almond tree grew where it fell. The daughter of the river god Sangarius, Nana, picked almonds from the tree and carried them at her bosom. The almonds disappeared and Nana became pregnant with Attis.

https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/gods/attis/

Alexander the Great​

Alexander was the son of King Philip II of Macedon and of Epirote princess Olympias. According to Plutarch (Alexander 3.1,3), Olympias was impregnated not by Philip, who was afraid of her and her affinity for sleeping in the company of snakes, but by Zeus. Plutarch (Alexander 2.2-3) relates that both Philip and Olympias dreamt of their son's future birth. Olympias dreamed of a loud burst of thunder and of lightning striking her womb. In Philip's dream, he sealed her womb with the seal of the lion.

Unique Facts About the Middle East: Alexander the Great

Unique Facts-Alexander the Great

www.sheppardsoftware.com

Romulus and Remus​

Romulus and Remus were twin brothers. Their mother, Rhea Silvia was the daughter of Numitor, king of Alba Longa, an ancient city of Latium. Before the twins are conceived, Rhea Silvia’s uncle Amulius takes power, kills Numitor’s male heirs and forces Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin. Vestal Virgins were charged with keeping a sacred fire that was never to be extinguished and were sworn to chastity.
However, Rhea Silvia conceives the twins. Most accounts claim their father was either the god Mars, or the demigod Hercules.

Origins of Rome: The Myth of Romulus and Remus

The citizens and scholars of Ancient Rome prided themselves on belonging to the greatest city in the world. Rome required a great foundation story,...

www.historyhit.com

Ra​

Another Egyptian god, Ra (the Sun), was said to have been born of a virgin mother, Net (or Neith), and to have had no father.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Virgin Birth Myth

www.hope-of-israel.org

Hephaestus​

Hesiod, however, claims that Hephaestus is solely Hera’s child and that she gave him birth by parthenogenesis to get back at her husband who had done the same with Athena.

⚒ Hephaestus :: Greek God of Blacksmiths and Fire

Hephaestus is the Greek god of blacksmiths, sculptors, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes; thus, he is symbolised with a hammer, an anvil and a pair of t...

www.greekmythology.com

Perseus​

Akrisios had locked up his daughter in an underground prison made of bronze after an oracle had declared that his future grandson would kill him. Of course, this was no barrier to Zeus who entered the cell as a shower of golden rain. Naturally, when the child was born, Akrisios was unwilling to believe Danae’s far-fetched story of the golden rain.

Perseus [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

lucianofsamosata.info

Horus​

After Osiris was brought back to the underworld, Isis now focused on revenge. She was impregnated by nature, which means Horus born of a virgin. Isis had the longest labor and went through many trials and tribulations in bringing Horus into this world safe and sound.

https://www.timelessmyths.com/mythology/when-was-horus-born/

Krishna was the one that really caught my skeptic's eye...

 

[SteveB]

What are you blathering about here, Steve?

Apparently something that you lack the necessary mental resources to understand.
I thought you had a PhD in some science or something. Why was that so easy, but this is beyond your abilities?


It's becoming increasingly curious that you have such difficulties with following discussion when it doesn't suite you, and also challenges your ideas.

The entire collection of virgin birth myths, resurrection myths, and death for sin myths are concoctions developed a good 200-400 years AFTER Jesus' birth, death and resurrection occurred.

Are you actively trying to twist what I say, or is this just bad reading ability on your part Steve?

It's a simple question.
Are you not able or willing to answer?
You're the one who used two you's.

The story is that Jesus was conceived and died on 25th March. But in different years. This is not rocket science, and frankly is not something you should get worked up about; it is not like the Bible says it was 25th of December Jesus was born on.

The bible doesn't actually give a date.
It gives a series of points, from which we are able to derive a date.
There are two possibilities.
There's a group who has chosen December and another which has chosen March.
Ironically, a much smaller number of people think it's actually in September.

I personally think it's immaterial. You have chosen to make it a hill you die on, and go to hell over.
Seems pretty asinine to me, but it is your eternity.

I celebrate December 25th because it's the day civilization has decided to do. It was decided centuries before I was born and it's not something I'm going to fret myself with. YHVH says that he has far more important matters for me to attend to than fritzing out over the day his Son was born.

Right, so why are you getting all upset when I tell you how Christians settled on 25th of December?

Nope.
You're the one who keeps talking about it as though you actually want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire unless you have a definitive answer.

Sounds pretty stupid to me.

What is your point Steve? Do you think I am wrong? If so, have the honesty to make that clear.

Regarding the death, and resurrection of Jesus, absolutely!
You are wrong.
Unless you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ you will perish.

And again: What is your point Steve? Do you think I am wrong? If so, have the honesty to make that clear.

Regarding the death, and resurrection of Jesus, absolutely!
You are wrong.
Unless you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus Christ you will perish.

And if the virgin birth is true, Jesus is not a direct male-line descendant of David, and cannot therefore be the messiah.

Apparently not according to you.
Sure is a good thing that YHVH disagrees with your beliefs.
And since his terms are not up for negotiation, I'd say that you have a problem that you have to deal with.

Who's going to win in your life?
You?
YHVH?
Where you spend your eternity is on the line.
Are your opinions and beliefs worth so much, is your ego so fragile that you will not give them up, and trust yourself to the God who created you in his own likeness and image?

So Steve, which is it to be? Virgin birth or messiahship?

Sounds like you are afraid to find out for yourself and need others to tell you what you're allowed to think.

 

[The Pixie]

Well, isn't it nice to realize that since you don't actually want to know the truth while you're alive, and living, you'll get to find out when you die.
Won't that be exciting....

More threats of hell. What a sad position to be in in the argument when your opening gambit is: believe what I say, or you will get tortured for eternity. It is a shame you have no evidence to present, no reasoning to offer, no hope of refuting my position. Just bravado and threats.

Like a playground bully who has been outwitted once again.

You already have been, by numerous other people on this forum and your standard practice is to discount, dismiss and disregard everything you want to, refusing to learn to do what Jesus said is necessary to actually know him and God.

No I have not. Every time I ask for a reason to believe the Bible is try I get either evasion of Bibles that assume it is true. This post is so far a great example of the former.

Since you keep claiming that you're intelligent enough to think through it without any practical engagement, I'm thinking that you don't actually want to know the truth.
I.e., the truth is only knowable by hands on application. And since you refuse, you're explicitly saying that you don't actually want to know the truth.

See here again, all you have is evasion. Do you even remember what your OP was, Steve?

I quote the bible because I've learned over the course of 45+ years of learning, application and experience that it's Truth, epitomized.

But you cannot say why you think it is true, can you?

The virgin birth simply is. You'd actually have to travel to the past in order to see the event unfold in real time.

Thanks for providing the best argument Christianity has for the virgin birth. It "simply is".

It is great that that works for you. You clearly have no need for reason or evidence; just faith.

Are you saying this is an all-or-nothing deal? Either it is all true, or none of it is?

Wow.... you're catching on.

So if the firmament does not exist, we can conclude the whole Bible is wrong. And by the way Steve, the firmament does not exist.

Of course at this point your reading of the Bible will become selective.

Why? Who decided that?

What does the bible say?
It's in there!

So you should be able to tell me. You are the one who thinks it is true, not me.

I would guess it was God who decided Mary had to be a virgin. He is supposedly all-powerful, so he could have chosen Jesus to be the product of a normal conception, and yet still free of sin - after all the Bible is clear that God can wash away sin from anyone. But he chose otherwise.

Do you think sex between a loving married couple is sinful?

My opinion is immaterial on the matter.

Really? Does Christianity not allow you to have opinions on moral issues? Why can you not answer the question?

Do you think sex between a loving married couple is sinful?

It's YHVH's word that matters.
Sex outside of marriage is described as a sin. Homosexual practices are described as a corruption of the natural design.

So, sin is about selfishness and has absolutely nothing to do with love.
Not the love described in the bible.

I asked about sex between a loving married couple, so you chose to talk about anything else. Is evasion just habitual for you Steve?

God could have chosen for Jesus to be the product of sex between a loving married couple, an act even Christians accept as not sinful as far as I know. There was no need for a virgin birth. It was just something the gentiles wanted because the pagan religions had that sort of thing.

It's the way he chose to do it.

Right... Back in post #33 you were telling that Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin. Now it was just what God happened to choose.

I think I see why you feel the need to evade so much.

It's pretty straightforward. So, if you're actually not able to understand, then I'd say that you have a cognitive block preventing you from being able to see clearly.
And that my dear fellow human being is something that requires medical attention.

You could not just explain what you meant?

I guess when you get into the habit of evasion, you just have to evade everything.

Your second sentence there is pretty much agreeing with me, that Jewish Christians needed Jesus to be a direct male-line descendant of David.

Actually, it's contained in the Jewish bible.

You know.... that part of the bible that christianity calls the old testament. And Jewish people call the Tanakh.

I know it is Steve, that is why I said it.

Did you not actually read my post? Hmm, is that why you evade everything question I ask? You are too scared I might be right to actually read my posts properly, and have no idea what I am asking. That would explain a lot... As I look back at your post, I see nothing you have presented that relates to the OP; just you increasingly insulting threats of eternal torture by your loving God.

 

[The Pixie]

??‍??
Apparently you're not.

Why?

That would explain why you don't actually know what you're talking about.
Mary's ancestry goes back to David, through his son Nathan.

Right, because a genealogy in Luke that does not include Mary says so!

23 Now Jesus himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry. He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph,​

the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat,​

the son of Levi, the son of Melki,​

the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph,​

It is great how you are so keen to spout Bible verses and assume me the Bible is true, right until you want to spin some other fantasy. Then you just ignore it!

Then by all means, feel free to contact the author and explain the problem to them.

I'm sure they'll appreciate your input.

I take it you realise the position presented in the article you said I should read cannot be defended. Or cannot be bothered to read it.

Did i?
I figured that your point was quite clear.

You misunderstood it, so obviously not.

Or, are you telling me that once you saw my response, you realized how inane your point was and needed to change it, so it would appear more erudite than it actually was?

No, I am telling you you misunderstood it. In your arrogance, you cannot accept that possibility it would seem.

I think it's actually you who needed the pagans to have miraculous births, so you can more easily dismiss the fact that the Son of God can be dismissed by you, from consideration as the only Savior YHVH has explicitly given the human race.

Plenty of them did, Steve, as I showed in a later post.

It's ok Pixie. I get it. You actually like your sin, and you're not willing to give it up.

What has that to do with the debate? Oh right, you are losing so need to fallback to your bully-boy tactics with threatening me with eternal torture at the hands of your "loving" god.

It's pretty clear.
You want the pagan cultures to give you the excuses you want to dismiss Jesus Christ as merely another pagan-sourced, and influence myth.

It is not a question of what I want. The fact is that several claims of virgin births pre-date Jesus, and you have no argument to present otherwise.

Your ongoing attempts at making sure you achieve your goals of sending yourself to an eternity of misery and agony and anguish are quite obvious.

And there it is.

Heaven forbid you could go a day without gloating about "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish" your "loving" god will inflict on me. It is not like you have a leg to stand on in the argument, so what else have you got?

I see by your comment that those three aren't enough to satisfy you.

The article starts by showing five gods with parallels to Jesus, then goes on to address just three of them. Even by the standard of the article, three is not enough to satisfy.

I think that is exactly why you need to build a time machine and travel back in time.

Again, Steve, time machines do not exist. They are just made up.

I have a question for you...

Explain why we should not believe that you are simply a coward?

Offensive, I agree.

But I think it's been plenty long enough that you literally do have everything necessary to engage YHVH on his terms.

I was going to ask why you think what you do takes courage. But then I realised perhaps you are right. I really could not go on-line every day and make post after post of arguments that are so obviously flawed like you do. I have to admit it takes a certain bravery to continue to appear as though you think time travel is real. I seriously could not do that.

That would explain your ongoing cowardice.

You say that, and yet I am the one risking "an eternity of misery and agony and anguish". You, on the other hand, are willing to turn a blind eye to God's on-going atrocity of torturing billions to ensure you avoid that. Which of those is cowardice, Steve?

And yet here you are accusing me of not reading it. Apparently to feel better about killing yourself.

The fact that this is your second post that carefully avoids addressing the issues in the article makes me feel even more confident saying you did not read the article.

 

[CrowCross]

How so?

You never made it.

 

[SteveB]

More threats of hell.

Nope.
Simple matter of fact.
Your ongoing whining about it definitely raises the question of whether or not you are acquainted with the concept of warnings about dangerous or life-threatening circumstances in Britain.

So, since you clearly don't grasp the nature of warnings.... I did some digging...
Apparently the British government actually does warn people about the weather.

Weather warnings guide

A guide to the National Severe Weather Warning Service

www.metoffice.gov.uk

Looks like they warn you about terrorism and national emergencies too.

Terrorism and national emergencies

Find out about terrorist threat levels, national measures against terrorism and how to report suspect activity

www.gov.uk

And it looks like the British government is kind enough to warn you about the traffic along the roads, and highways.

Travel alerts - National Highways

The highest priority incidents and closures for the motorway and trunk road network in England.

nationalhighways.co.uk

So.... clearly you are at the very least acquainted with the concept of warnings.

Which then raises the question of your beliefs....

I.e., as long as you don't believe something is true, it can't be true, nor would it apply to you.

A couple weeks ago, Florida was nailed by a rather unique hurricane. It's known as Ian.
I didn't think it was unique at all. It made its way through the Caribbean, up around the western edge of Cuba and across the gulf of Mexico and landed in southwest Florida, along a town known as Fort Myers. My wife has been utterly intrigued by the destruction wrought by Ian. According to several sources, the storm had features that morphed.
It was a category 4 hurricane, but only by 2-3 mph. It acted more like a category 5 hurricane. Island homes, and bridges destroyed, coastal communities literally flattened. Boats stacked, and parked in people's yards, on homes, across bays, tossed about like matchsticks.
One mobile home community literally had all its mobile homes picked up, and moved what appeared to be a half mile away, and shoved into a pile, in a mismatched manner.

Shrimper boats all piled on top of each other.
Bars, restaurants, hotels, restaurants.... literally wiped off the map, as though they never existed.

Apparently, you have fellows who are just like you.
They too didn't believe the warnings. Some perished. Others lost absolutely everything.
Oh, I'm sure their stuff exists somewhere between their original location and up the coast in south Carolina.

I'm waiting to hear a news report that some divers find a car lot in the bay.

You can indeed continue to argue that I'm threatening you. I'm sure that the people who got killed by the hurricane would feel the same way.

But, they're dead now and they no longer have a voice. I'm quite confident that if they did..... they'd be begging you to pay attention and quit whining about it.

What a sad position to be in in the argument when your opening gambit is: believe what I say, or you will get tortured for eternity.

Tell that to the people who are dying every day. Let me know what they're saying about it.

I for one would love to hear what they have to say.

It is a shame you have no evidence to present, no reasoning to offer, no hope of refuting my position. Just bravado and threats.

Nope.
I have the dead bodies laying in their graves, crematoriums, at the bottom of the oceans, up in trees, crushed under collapsed buildings, etc....
Hundreds of millions, upwards of billions...

I think you should talk with them about it.

I know I'd like to.

Like a playground bully who has been outwitted once again.

Yeah.... I'm thinking that the British government is exactly that for posting all those warnings about dangers associated with living....

No I have not. Every time I ask for a reason to believe the Bible is try I get either evasion of Bibles that assume it is true. This post is so far a great example of the former.

Well, as @JAG said yesterday, you keep rejecting what you're given because you don't want to know the truth.

See here again, all you have is evasion. Do you even remember what your OP was, Steve?

?
Do you?
Thread 'The many gods from which Jesus arises?' https://forums.carm.org/threads/the-many-gods-from-which-jesus-arises.11924/

Let me guess.... you're recognizing that you are like the dog on a leash and you have come to the realization that you're tired of running around in circles, trying to catch your tail?

But you cannot say why you think it is true, can you?

I already have. Repeatedly.
I see you're running around in circles again.
Are you growing weary yet?

Thanks for providing the best argument Christianity has for the virgin birth. It "simply is".

It's not my you can't think beyond your assumptions and preconceptions.
You're doing this to yourself.

I, and others have been explaining it to you, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over......again...

You're like a dog chasing its tail in circles...

It is great that that works for you.

Pity you're afraid of the truth.
It's so much more interesting than you are willing to consider.

You clearly have no need for reason or evidence; just faith.

???‍
Well, as @JAG Noted yesterday, your "tribe" will do whatever they feel will achieve silencing the "tribe" of those whom they loathe, and oppose.

So if the firmament does not exist, we can conclude the whole Bible is wrong. And by the way Steve, the firmament does not exist.

Well, it may not exist for you, but I see it just fine.
I'm actually enjoying its benefits right now too!
I have a great atmosphere, I can breathe, the firmament is a gloriously beautiful blue.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that you aren't.
Or is this another one of those assumptions that you actually know what you're talking about?

Of course at this point your reading of the Bible will become selective.

Nope.
I'm presently reading through the entire bible. I'm reading each book 6 times. I'm on #4 for the book of Joshua. I've been reading the bible front to back and over again for a long long long time now.

It's actually been really cool. I'm seeing things that I had never seen growing up. That of course would be because I never read it growing up. Turns out that my family didn't think it was important to teach me.

Once I finish Joshua, I'll move to Judges. Read that 6 times. Then after Judges, I'll read Ruth 6 times. Then 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, and on through the bible.... where I'll end up at Revelation again.
You see, I actually enjoy learning what God said he'd do for those who believe him.

So you should be able to tell me. You are the one who thinks it is true, not me.

Yep. I've repeatedly got that part.
Pity.... you are missing out on so much!

I would guess it was God who decided Mary had to be a virgin.

Well, I guarantee it wasn't me!
That's one of those things that is beyond my pay grade.
I would have thought it beyond yours too, but apparently you think that you should have had a say in the matter.

In the 5th chapter of Romans, and 1 Corinthians 15, we read that Jesus is the second man, and last Adam.

To be able to do this, he had to have all the same conditions as Adam. This means that he needed to be without sin.
The only way to do this, and still be human, is to be able to have a human parent and God as a parent.

Enter the virgin birth.
I never would have thought about it on those terms, but God did. He even said it in the garden of eden.

The seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent and the serpent would bruise the heel of her seed....

The only problem is.... women don't have seed. They have eggs. The man on the other hand does have the seed....
So, the Male DNA could only come from God, because sin passes through the male human DNA.

He is supposedly all-powerful, so he could have chosen Jesus to be the product of a normal conception, and yet still free of sin - after all the Bible is clear that God can wash away sin from anyone. But he chose otherwise.

All powerful doesn't mean that he uses his power according to your terms, and conditions.
This is something you should stop and consider.
Incorporate it into your noggin.
He has his own terms and conditions he operates from, and upon.

 

[SteveB]

Really? Does Christianity not allow you to have opinions on moral issues?

It's not a matter of can I...
It's a matter of --I'm a follower of Jesus. He's showing me the truth regarding life, and the various aspects of truth.
In this case, you're about 30 years too late to get MY opinions on what you define as morality.
YHVH's view on morality is that it's an issue of the heart. As sin kills the human heart, God removes the old stony heart of flesh and gives us a new heart of flesh and a new spirit.
Jesus said that if a man looks at a woman with sexual desire, he's already committed adultery with her.
He said also that if you're angry with your brother without a cause, you have already murdered him.


So, God's idea of morality is infinitely superior to ours.

I've found over the years that I like his better than mine. It's saved me a lot of heartache and pain. Definitely better than the grave or prison.

Why can you not answer the question?

I just did.

I asked about sex between a loving married couple,

No. You left out married.

so you chose to talk about anything else. Is evasion just habitual for you Steve?

?
Sounds like you again recognized the untenability of your comment and needed to change it up to have the appearance of propriety.

Marriage is the proper framework within which sex is honorable, and to be wholly enjoyed by husband and wife.
Something to be wholly celebrated.

God could have chosen for Jesus to be the product of sex between a loving married couple, an act even Christians accept as not sinful as far as I know.

He didn't.
You apparently aren't reading very well.

I explained before that the sin nature passes through the human male DNA.
The act of sex inside marriage isn't sinful at all.
It's the sin of Adam, that brings death to the entire human race is passed along to the children.
God said that he was going to do it differently.
The virgin birth is how.
It was initially stated in Genesis 3, and then clarified in Isaiah 7.

Why are you so bothered by this?
You previously established that it doesn't make sense to you. But now you're clearly trying to figure out how to remove God's power from the situation.

God chose to do it this way to give his son the same conditions as Adam.
A living soul, a connection with God, and the power to choose life, while experiencing the same thing as Adam, with regards to his ego.

1Co 15:45 WEB So also it is written, “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Rom 5:12 WEB Therefore, as sin entered into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death passed to all men because all sinned.

Rom 5:14-21 WEB 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come. 15 But the free gift isn’t like the trespass. For if by the trespass of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16 The gift is not as through one who sinned; for the judgment came by one to condemnation, but the free gift followed many trespasses to justification. 17 For if by the trespass of the one, death reigned through the one; so much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one, Jesus Christ. 18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous. 20 The law came in that the trespass might abound; but where sin abounded, grace abounded more exceedingly, 21 that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

There was no need for a virgin birth.

No.

You don't want there to be any need for the virgin birth.

It's yet another attempt to make this all vanish and be null and void.

This is YHVH's program. Not yours.

When you become YHVH, you can set the terms. And since none of the people who have sought the position have ever succeeded, I wouldn't recommend holding your breath.

It was just something the gentiles wanted because the pagan religions had that sort of thing.

???
Actually, the gentiles were utterly clueless about it until the Jewish people made known their scriptures through the 72 Hebrew scholars who translated it into Greek in the mid 3rd century BCE.
It's a Greek copy of the Hebrew bible. Known as the septuagint.
You're more than welcome to do your own research on it.
I wouldn't want to keep you from learning the truth.

www.britannica.com/topic/Septuagint

Right... Back in post #33 you were telling that Jesus HAD to be born of a virgin. Now it was just what God happened to choose.

That is exactly what the bible says. Actually, YHVH himself said it.
So, you're just going to have to live with the awareness that you are not YHVH, and as such, you get to change what you don't like.
Don't worry though.
People have had ~2700~3500 years to get figure out how to change it, but the curious thing is.... they've never actually succeeded.
So.... yeah.... you're more than welcome to blame this whole virgin birth thing on pagans.... it's actually an originally Jewish concept.

So, I'd say that you're reaching for things that aren't true.

I think I see why you feel the need to evade so much.

Well, considering that the truth has been repeatedly explained to you yet you continue to claim assumptions, ignore explanations, and continue to argue assumptions, I'm thinking that it's exactly what I've stated.... and @JAG stated yesterday afternoon.
Your beliefs are driving you to figure out any means you can concoct to dismiss Jesus.

You'll find that there's only one valid reason to dismiss Jesus...

Just one....

You want nothing to do with him.

All the other attempts at reasons have been proven false, throughout the past 1990 years.

And make no mistake here..... many people have tried. They've worked assiduously at finding the best possible solution to dismiss Jesus...

There's only one.... and ironically....

Jesus himself gave it to us....

You could not just explain what you meant?

I did. Apparently you don't want to consider it.
It's a pretty simple description.

I guess when you get into the habit of evasion, you just have to evade everything.

Well, considering that you have spent your entire life working to avoid Jesus, I'm thinking that it's you who have been evading.

I've only been around here for just under a decade.

You've had an entire life to come to Jesus and yet you have refused.

That's not my fault. You and you alone bear that one, yourself.

I know it is Steve, that is why I said it.

Do you?
because you seem pretty stuck on the term- Jewish CHRISTIANS.

Christians didn't write the Tanakh. Jewish people did.

Did you not actually read my post?

Well, looking at my comment above, I'd say that.... yep! I read it. Lock, stock and barrel.
It's why you were given a post which had to be split into 2 parts. It turned out to be too long.... 14,700+ characters.

Turns out this one is over 18,600, which of course means that it has to be split into 2 posts.

If you prefer, I can stop reading them, and just comment on the parts that I find the most hilarious.

As much as I'll regret it, I'm quite skilled at sarcastic witticisms and can just do those....

You let me know and I'll think about it.

Hmm, is that why you evade everything question I ask?

Considering that you have spent an entire lifetime dismissing Jesus, I find myself thinking that you're just being disingenuous.
Otherwise you would have already turned to YHVH from your sin and placed your trust in Jesus Christ.
Quite frankly, I think if you actually ready posts, you will find that I did in fact answer your questions, but you don't like the idea that your biases, preconceptions and interest in avoiding Jesus are greater than your interest in knowing the truth.

You are too scared I might be right to actually read my posts properly, and have no idea what I am asking.

Nope.
I'm taking your posts at face value.
It's why you're getting so much attention and time from me.
I'm not getting paid for anything. I don't get so many pennies per letter, with bonuses for surpassing certain amounts of words.

So, you're getting the truth. Regardless of whether you like it or not.

 

[SteveB]

That would explain a lot... As I look back at your post, I see nothing you have presented that relates to the OP; just you increasingly insulting threats of eternal torture by your loving God.

I'm seeing only excuses for why you should be able to dismiss Jesus.

You are carrying on that God isn't allowed to follow his own terms and conditions, based on how he created humans.

You're further dismissing the resurrection of Jesus, because you apparently think that you have a right to define what YHVH has explicitly stated he would do.

It's pretty basic complaining.

Apparently, the forum software has decided that if you get within 200 characters of the 10,000 character limit, it won't let you post....

??‍

 

[Lucian]

You never made it.

Sure I did.

 

[Lucian]

Here are some examples of virgin births from pagan religions. Some have alternative stories, but since when have religions worried about being consistent? None of them are much like Jesus. I am not claiming the details came from paganism - only the need for a miraculous birth.

Attis​

The daemon Agdistis is linked to both the birth and death of Attis. Agdistis had both female and male reproductive organs. The gods feared this and plotted his death. Tricked into swallowing a sleeping potion, the gods tied his male genitalia to his foot. He castrated himself when he woke and stood. His blood fell to earth fertilizing the ground. An almond tree grew where it fell. The daughter of the river god Sangarius, Nana, picked almonds from the tree and carried them at her bosom. The almonds disappeared and Nana became pregnant with Attis.

https://greekgodsandgoddesses.net/gods/attis/

Alexander the Great​

Alexander was the son of King Philip II of Macedon and of Epirote princess Olympias. According to Plutarch (Alexander 3.1,3), Olympias was impregnated not by Philip, who was afraid of her and her affinity for sleeping in the company of snakes, but by Zeus. Plutarch (Alexander 2.2-3) relates that both Philip and Olympias dreamt of their son's future birth. Olympias dreamed of a loud burst of thunder and of lightning striking her womb. In Philip's dream, he sealed her womb with the seal of the lion.

Unique Facts About the Middle East: Alexander the Great

Unique Facts-Alexander the Great

www.sheppardsoftware.com

Romulus and Remus​

Romulus and Remus were twin brothers. Their mother, Rhea Silvia was the daughter of Numitor, king of Alba Longa, an ancient city of Latium. Before the twins are conceived, Rhea Silvia’s uncle Amulius takes power, kills Numitor’s male heirs and forces Rhea Silvia to become a Vestal Virgin. Vestal Virgins were charged with keeping a sacred fire that was never to be extinguished and were sworn to chastity.
However, Rhea Silvia conceives the twins. Most accounts claim their father was either the god Mars, or the demigod Hercules.

Origins of Rome: The Myth of Romulus and Remus

The citizens and scholars of Ancient Rome prided themselves on belonging to the greatest city in the world. Rome required a great foundation story,...

www.historyhit.com

Ra​

Another Egyptian god, Ra (the Sun), was said to have been born of a virgin mother, Net (or Neith), and to have had no father.

The Ancient Beginnings of the Virgin Birth Myth

www.hope-of-israel.org

Hephaestus​

Hesiod, however, claims that Hephaestus is solely Hera’s child and that she gave him birth by parthenogenesis to get back at her husband who had done the same with Athena.

⚒ Hephaestus :: Greek God of Blacksmiths and Fire

Hephaestus is the Greek god of blacksmiths, sculptors, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes; thus, he is symbolised with a hammer, an anvil and a pair of t...

www.greekmythology.com

Perseus​

Akrisios had locked up his daughter in an underground prison made of bronze after an oracle had declared that his future grandson would kill him. Of course, this was no barrier to Zeus who entered the cell as a shower of golden rain. Naturally, when the child was born, Akrisios was unwilling to believe Danae’s far-fetched story of the golden rain.

Perseus [The Lucian of Samosata Project]

lucianofsamosata.info

Horus​

After Osiris was brought back to the underworld, Isis now focused on revenge. She was impregnated by nature, which means Horus born of a virgin. Isis had the longest labor and went through many trials and tribulations in bringing Horus into this world safe and sound.

https://www.timelessmyths.com/mythology/when-was-horus-born/

These aren't quite all examples of virgin births.

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

Well, further evidence that you don't actually want to know the truth.

What you mean is your belief.

The virgin birth simply is.

No it isn't, it is a mistranslation.

Although it would have resonated with its Hellenistic audience with its echoes of Leda and the swan, Danaë and the shower of gold, and Europa and the bull.

 

[Lucian]

No it isn't, it is a mistranslation.

How so?

Although it would have resonated with its Hellenistic audience with its echoes of Leda and the swan, Danaë and the shower of gold, and Europa and the bull.

Would it? An audience that might endorse Christianity is close to adopting a religion that is fundamentally dissimilar to what would have been available to most 'Hellenistic' audiences of the time, and that stressed this fact. In that circumstance, I'm not sure that the resonance would have amounted to much, or been welcome even if it had.

 

[Hypatia_Alexandria]

How so?

Would it? An audience that might endorse Christianity is close to adopting a religion that is fundamentally dissimilar to what would have been available to most 'Hellenistic' audiences of the time, and that stressed this fact. In that circumstance, I'm not sure that the resonance would have amounted to much, or been welcome even if it had.

We would have to consider what specific Christian belief was being promulgated. After all early members of this cult [as it was regarded] held various different ideas and often had their own scriptures believed to have been written by various apostles/disciples.

Nor was there one over-arching Christian orthodoxy in the late first century CE. The religion was entirely fluid.

 

[The Pixie]

Nope.
Simple matter of fact.

It is your opinion. But regardless of that, it does not make your argument any more convincing.

Remember the OP? We were discussing the pagan influences on early Christianity. Whether God will torture me for eternity or not does not impact that argument at all. It is irrelevant. So I will just skip over it all.

I already have. Repeatedly.
I see you're running around in circles again.
Are you growing weary yet?

Yes, Steve, debating with you is indeed like running in circles, and yest I am growng weary of it. I hope you will understand, therefore, if I just skip much of your ranting.

Thanks for providing the best argument Christianity has for the virgin birth. It "simply is".

It's not my you can't think beyond your assumptions and preconceptions.
You're doing this to yourself.

But it is your fault that you are unable to say why you think the virgin birth is true beyond saying it "simply is".

I, and others have been explaining it to you, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over......again...

No you have not. You have threaten me with a eternity of torture at the hands of your "loving" God. You have insulted me. But the only reason you have given to believe the virgin birth is true is saying it "simply is".

So if the firmament does not exist, we can conclude the whole Bible is wrong. And by the way Steve, the firmament does not exist.

Well, it may not exist for you, but I see it just fine.
I'm actually enjoying its benefits right now too!
I have a great atmosphere, I can breathe, the firmament is a gloriously beautiful blue.

The firmament is a solid structure that keeps the Waters Above from falling down on us; holes are opened in it when it rains - or so the Bible tells us anyway.

I think that that is wrong. You assure me it is all-or-nothing with the Bible, so therefore it must all be wrong.

Of course at this point your reading of the Bible will become selective.

Nope.
I'm presently reading through the entire bible. I'm reading each book 6 times. I'm on #4 for the book of Joshua. I've been reading the bible front to back and over again for a long long long time now.

And yet here you are pretending that firmament just means the sky. Selective reading.

No. You left out married.

No I did not. I said, in post #38.

"Do you think sex between a loving married couple is sinful?"​

Now are you able to swallow your pride and admit you made a mistake?

Remember that anyone can click on that link and verify for themselves that I did not leave out "married", that you are wrong here. And yet somehow I doubt you have it in you to admit you were wrong to an atheist.

?
Sounds like you again recognized the untenability of your comment and needed to change it up to have the appearance of propriety.

Marriage is the proper framework within which sex is honorable, and to be wholly enjoyed by husband and wife.
Something to be wholly celebrated.

It only sounds like that because you failed to read it properly.

Now, are you able to admit you got it wrong?

God could have chosen for Jesus to be the product of sex between a loving married couple, an act even Christians accept as not sinful as far as I know.

He didn't.
You apparently aren't reading very well.

I did not say he did, I said he could have.

Hmm, looks like you are not reading so well. Can you admit to be wrong on this one too, Steve?

I explained before that the sin nature passes through the human male DNA.
The act of sex inside marriage isn't sinful at all.
It's the sin of Adam, that brings death to the entire human race is passed along to the children.
God said that he was going to do it differently.
The virgin birth is how.
It was initially stated in Genesis 3, and then clarified in Isaiah 7.

Are you saying your all-powerful god was therefore forced to use a virgin birth?

Is he not so all-powerful?

Why are you so bothered by this?
You previously established that it doesn't make sense to you. But now you're clearly trying to figure out how to remove God's power from the situation.

It is strange you say I am trying to remove God's power, when you seem to be saying God was forced by something beyond his control to use a virgin birth.

God chose to do it this way to give his son the same conditions as Adam.

Adam was not born of a virgin birth, Steve.

You don't want there to be any need for the virgin birth.

Do you think there was a need for a virgin birth? Who was forcing God to do it that way?

Why was Jesus not just creatred like Adam was?

This is YHVH's program. Not yours.

It is not YHVH's program, it is nonsense invented by men thousands of years ago. Think it through; both Luke and Matthew claim Jesus was a direct male-line descendant of David, and hence qualified to be the messiah AND that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth and so had no father!

It was just something the gentiles wanted because the pagan religions had that sort of thing.

Actually, the gentiles were utterly clueless about it until the Jewish people made known their scriptures through the 72 Hebrew scholars who translated it into Greek in the mid 3rd century BCE.
It's a Greek copy of the Hebrew bible. Known as the septuagint.
You're more than welcome to do your own research on it.
I wouldn't want to keep you from learning the truth.

You are a bit confused with your times there, Steve. The gentile Christians were from about AD 50 onwards, maybe a little earlier. That is well after the LXX!

Do you?

Yes, Steve, that is why I said.

because you seem pretty stuck on the term- Jewish CHRISTIANS.
Christians didn't write the Tanakh. Jewish people did.

There were lots of Jews - the vast majority in fact - who did not write the Tanakh, so the fact that it was not Jewish Christiand who wrote the Tanakh seems a bizarre point to make.

You are aware that the very first Christians - the disciples - were Jewish, right?

I'm seeing only excuses for why you should be able to dismiss Jesus.

And I am only seeing excuses for why I should think the Bible is true.

You're further dismissing the resurrection of Jesus, because you apparently think that you have a right to define what YHVH has explicitly stated he would do.

I dismiss it because the evidence points to it not happening.

As you say, this is an all-or-nothing deal. Either the Bible is right all the way though, or it is just plain wrong. Your religion says Jesus was the direct male-line descendant of David AND that he was the product of a virgin birth. It must be wrong about one of those two. And if it wrong one of those two, then the whole thing is just plain wrong. Thanks for helping me see that.

 

[CrowCross]

Sure I did.

What-ever.

NEXT

 

[Lucian]

What-ever.

You aren't willing to defend what you say. Okay.