The Value of Evangelism in Reform Theology

[JDS]

Another fallacious argument. The fact is that no human being knows who is saved or who will be saved. We do not know what is in the heart of man, only God knows. Some we might think are saved may not be and others we do not think are saved might be saved.

We do know who "can" be saved. We can know "how" a sinner is saved. These are two areas of disagreement and I think they are essential. A sinner is saved by the gospel. By that I mean he is saved by believing it after hearing it. God sends his preachers out to the world to proclaim the good news that Christ died for their sins and God has been propitiated on behalf of all men by his substitutionary death. The how of salvation is that God gives the gift of life, who is the Holy Spirit, righteousness, salvation and his eternal presence to any and all who hears, repents and believes the gospel of Christ and puts their full weight on him to deliver them.

Our job as christians is to share the gospel and let God do the saving. I will quote Paul and leave it at that !

Philippians 1:15-18
It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. 18 But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice,

"Sharing" the gospel will mean different things to you and me. You think that God has already marked for salvation those who are preached to and you have no conviction that the gospel has any power to save them if they are not elect. Your presentation will lack passion and maybe even love for that sinner. You will probably conclude that he may be, and possibly is, unsavable. You are willing to walk away with the attitude that neither you or God can do anything for him if his lostness is predetermined.

I do not believe that. The passage I would quote, which is in the context of getting a sinner to God, is this one;

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

What do we persuade them about?

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The reason the gospel is the power of God unto salvation is because it acts in the heart of a sinner in the same way a seed acts in the ground. It takes time for it to germinate. Paul understood this and spoke of it in his letters. He said he sowed and Apollos watered but God gave the increase. Peter says "being born again, not with corruptible seed but incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever." Luke said, "the seed is the word."

Most saints were not saved the first time they heard the gospel.

And BTW the debate between Israel and the Church is an in-house debate among brothers in Christ much like the Arminian/Calvinist debate is an in-house debate. Neither are salvific.

That might be true if God was only interested in saving us, but it is not. He is interested that his Son receives glory in our salvation. He does not get any glory from Calvinism and their weird unscriptural teachings about it. The cross is incidental to a transaction between God and a few sinners who are elect that has already been made long before he went to the cross. Your glory is in being one of those elect even though you can only point to your own works to prove it.

And you should be ashamed to compare a JW with any Arminian or Calvinist.

What if I compared you with mormons and said your doctrine is just like them and you have changed the meaning of Gods word in many places ?

hope this helps

If I have changed the meaning of words then point them out and I will rectify it.

 

[David1701]

We do know who "can" be saved. We can know "how" a sinner is saved. These are two areas of disagreement and I think they are essential. A sinner is saved by the gospel. By that I mean he is saved by believing it after hearing it. God sends his preachers out to the world to proclaim the good news that Christ died for their sins and God has been propitiated on behalf of all men by his substitutionary death. The how of salvation is that God gives the gift of life, who is the Holy Spirit, righteousness, salvation and his eternal presence to any and all who hears, repents and believes the gospel of Christ and puts their full weight on him to deliver them.



"Sharing" the gospel will mean different things to you and me. You think that God has already marked for salvation those who are preached to and you have no conviction that the gospel has any power to save them if they are not elect. Your presentation will lack passion and maybe even love for that sinner. You will probably conclude that he may be, and possibly is, unsavable. You are willing to walk away with the attitude that neither you or God can do anything for him if his lostness is predetermined.

I do not believe that. The passage I would quote, which is in the context of getting a sinner to God, is this one;

2 Cor 5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

What do we persuade them about?

14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

The reason the gospel is the power of God unto salvation is because it acts in the heart of a sinner in the same way a seed acts in the ground. It takes time for it to germinate. Paul understood this and spoke of it in his letters. He said he sowed and Apollos watered but God gave the increase. Peter says "being born again, not with corruptible seed but incorruptible, by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever." Luke said, "the seed is the word."

Most saints were not saved the first time they heard the gospel.



That might be true if God was only interested in saving us, but it is not. He is interested that his Son receives glory in our salvation. He does not get any glory from Calvinism and their weird unscriptural teachings about it. The cross is incidental to a transaction between God and a few sinners who are elect that has already been made long before he went to the cross. Your glory is in being one of those elect even though you can only point to your own works to prove it.



If I have changed the meaning of words then point them out and I will rectify it.

"Sharing" the gospel will mean different things to you and me. You think that God has already marked for salvation those who are preached to and you have no conviction that the gospel has any power to save them if they are not elect.

The gospel is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes; and the elect are the only ones who believe, by definition.

 

[JDS]

I thought what I stated was pretty clear

There are doctrines which are essential and there are doctrine which are not i.e. Salvation is not dependant upon
them

Eschatology is a non essential and the church has never had a unified view of eschatology

The gospel is an essential. Salvation through faith in Jesus Christ

As is a correct view of the nature of God, Christ, his resurrection etc

Russelites I believe compromise a number of essentials so no i would not

On the other hand I affirm Calvinists as Christians

and it cannot be stated I am biased in their favor

Calvinism does not teach that Jesus Christ will not save sinners, it teaches that he cannot save most sinners because God had not previously elected them to be saved. Their doctrine has substituted the cross for pre-time election of God as the foundation for Christianity. This is an essential doctrine of the faith. They will admit that one who is not elect can not be a Christian. What they will not admit is that the cross is equal with all the parts of the faith after election, but not above any of them. I reject that as heresy.

Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

 

[TomFL]

Calvinism does not teach that Jesus Christ will not save sinners, it teaches that he cannot save most sinners because God had not previously elected them to be saved. Their doctrine has substituted the cross for pre-time election of God as the foundation for Christianity. This is an essential doctrine of the faith. They will admit that one who is not elect can not be a Christian. What they will not admit is that the cross is equal with all the parts of the faith after election, but not above any of them. I reject that as heresy.

Ga 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

1 Cor 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Eph 2:
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

I gave you my view. I disagree with certain Calvinist doctrines. I do not believe they are contrary to the essentials mentioned previously. I firmly believe they are Christian - a part of the body of Christ

If you want to argue the point further I would suggest you do so with a Calvinist

 

[TibiasDad]

We should follow the biblical pattern for evangelism, which does not include saying that God loves every person, nor that Jesus died for every person.

What we can tell people is that Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to save sinners (i.e. that is the type of person for whom the Lord died) and that everyone who repents and believes in Jesus Christ will saved.

Since John 3:16 is in the Bible, and "world" means all mankind, then we can, and should be preaching it! Paul told the Athenians that God is not very far from any one (meaning there was no individual Athenian that God didn't want to reach out for and find him), and so by extension there is no individual that God is very far from, he is very close to any one of us! (Acts 17:27)


Doug

 

[TomFL]

We should follow the biblical pattern for evangelism, which does not include saying that God loves every person, nor that Jesus died for every person.

What we can tell people is that Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to save sinners (i.e. that is the type of person for whom the Lord died) and that everyone who repents and believes in Jesus Christ will saved.

Really ?

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

 

[brightfame52]

We should follow the biblical pattern for evangelism, which does not include saying that God loves every person, nor that Jesus died for every person.

What we can tell people is that Jesus shed his blood and died on the cross to save sinners (i.e. that is the type of person for whom the Lord died) and that everyone who repents and believes in Jesus Christ will saved.

Does one need to be saved in order to hear repent and believe?

 

[brightfame52]

Really ?

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

That's talking about the Sheep, that is whose sins Christ died for according to the scriptures

 

[TomFL]

That's talking about the Sheep, that is whose sins Christ died for according to the scriptures

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage

 

[brightfame52]

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage

He preached more than that. He explained the scriptures He preached.

 

[TomFL]

He preached more than that. He explained the scriptures He preached.

You are dodging the point

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage

 

[brightfame52]

You are dodging the point

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage

Christ died for his Sheep according to scripture

 

[TomFL]

Christ died for his Sheep according to scripture

Christ died for all according to scripture

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage and it is absurd to imagine in his entire audience there was not those who would never believe

 

[brightfame52]

Christ died for all according to scripture

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage and it is absurd to imagine in his entire audience there was not those who would never believe

Those are about the Sheep!

 

[brightfame52]

Dp

 

[TomFL]

Those are about the Sheep!

Surprise surprise You ignore the evidence once again

Christ died for all according to scripture

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage and it is absurd to imagine in his entire audience there was not those who would never believe

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[brightfame52]

Surprise surprise You ignore the evidence once again

Christ died for all according to scripture

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

That is what Paul had preached to the unconverted according to his own words

1 Cor. 15:1–3 —KJV
Ҧ Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;”

sheep do not appear in the passage and it is absurd to imagine in his entire audience there was not those who would never believe

Reply
Report

Who did Christ state specifically He died for here Jn 10:15

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And all people are not His Sheep ! This speaks to limited atonement

 

[TomFL]

Who did Christ state specifically He died for here Jn 10:15

As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

And all people are not His Sheep ! This speaks to limited atonement

Your problem is that verse does not say he layed down his life for the sheep only

Paul stated Christ gave himself for him

would you conclude that he died for Paul only

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

 

[brightfame52]

Your problem is that verse does not say he layed down his life for the sheep only

Paul stated Christ gave himself for him

would you conclude that he died for Paul only

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

It tells us who He Christ specifically died for, so to go beyond what Christ stated is mere speculation !

 

[TomFL]

It tells us who He Christ specifically died for, so to go beyond what Christ stated is mere speculation !

As does Heb 2:9 see below

Your problem is that verse does not say he layed down his life for the sheep only

Paul stated Christ gave himself for him

would you conclude that he died for Paul only

Heb. 2:9 —KJV
“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”