Rethinking the doctrine of "hell"

Stephen

Well-known member
Why to reject the doctrine of "Hell".

The stuff below is mine, but for more information, see the website: edit link violation

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It is difficult prove something doesn't exist when somebody imagines it is true. Such a proof is a form of proving a negative, however there are means of proving a negative. To do so, you typically show something isn't there when it should be present, I.e. absence of evidence is evidence of absence. For example, if you don't feel your car keys in your pocket, you have sufficiently proven the negative of the presence of your car keys in your pocket. Some people will however insist that this is insufficient evidence, but I would wonder how they function in life.

Similarly, the doctrine of "hell" is something people imagine is taught in the bible. It isn't. Like many things, it is taught by the churches, but it isn't taught in the bible.

First, notice that "hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe. Everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes the sun, moon, earth, etc... as objects, putting Hebrews thousands of years ahead of everybody else and when it spread to the gentiles, it advanced them as well. Genesis 1 describes the creation, including the heavens. Yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned. This is a serious omission if the doctrine of hell is a true doctrine.

Second, notice that "hell" is absent where it should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is condemned. Adam and Eve are promised a fruitful womb and painful childbirth, conflict between the sexes, work, and last but not least, the condemnation: "from dust you are and to dust you will return". They are not condemned to fiery torment, they are condemned with returning to the dust. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the truth is that you will die. The doctrine of hell teaches that you will live forever, it is the same lie the serpent told.

Third, notice that the condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. It does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment. In teaching of the salvation of man, the bible teaches that man is saved from death, not saved from eternal conscious torment.

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Regarding passages used to support such a monumental doctrine as a redefinition of death are thin. The primary passage is "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31 (Link). But look closely at the passage, this is a parable by Jesus, not a description of actual events. For example:
  • Heaven isn't mentioned in the passage. It speaks of "the bosom of Abraham". This place isn't defined in scripture,
  • Likewise, "hades" or "hell" place mentioned in the passage isn't described in scripture either.
  • These people are taken bodily. The rich man looks with his eyes, he wants a drop of water from a finger placed upon his tongue. These body parts rot away in the grave, they aren't carried away by angels.
  • There is a gulf between Abraham and the rich man, yet the rich man wants Lazarus to come visit him.
  • The rich man speaks and has a conversation with Abraham. Not with angels, or whatever else. He speaks to Abraham.
  • Abraham is dead and has not received his reward (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Abraham isn't in Abraham's bosom.

And of course, compare the introduction of the parable to the previous parable,

Luke 16:1 “There was a rich man whose
Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who

Other than declaring it a parable, he couldn't make it any more obvious that this is a parable.

It can be argued that Jesus did not call it a parable, however only 11 of his 26+ parables in Luke are actually called parables. What the story in Luke 16 is actually about is in verses 14-15 Jesus attacks the Pharisees and materialism, and this materialism is why they killed him. He tells a parable specifically directed to the Pharisees, and for them to understand. Examine the characters and the story:
  • a Rich Man (High Priest Caiphas)
  • his Father (Annas) (High priest when Jesus was a child)
  • the sons of the Father (Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, Ananus) (also high priests)
  • who all were wealthy
  • were well studied in Moses and the Prophets.
  • And his promise to these men was that though one would rise from the dead, they would not repent.
The prediction of the parable actually happened. Lazarus rose from the dead and they all the more wanted to kill him (John 12:9-11) rather than repent. Jesus rose from the dead and they did not repent.

This parable was given to the Pharisees, not to somebody who has never heard of the God of Israel and his son. This parable isn't for the unknowing, this parable is for those well steeped in the bible. If this is a teaching for all mankind and the lost who have never heard of Jesus Christ, it is very much in the wrong place. It should have been in Genesis.

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In conclusion, the doctrine of "hell" is Pagan claptrap and should be discarded as a doctrine. The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious torment), and the gift of God is eternal life.

God's gift is not eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell, God's gift is eternal life (period).
 
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... The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious torment), and the gift of God is eternal life.

God's gift is not eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell, God's gift is eternal life (period).
Where do you propose the everlasting punishment takes place, where their torment rises forever and forever?

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
 
Where do you propose the everlasting punishment takes place, where their torment rises forever and forever?

Matt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As I read the passage,
  • The everlasting punishment is death. They will return to dust and that is their eternal fate.
  • The righteous go to life eternal. This is the gift of God. And note it doesn't say eternal life in heaven.
I'm not sure what you are envisioning the passage to say.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

The thing that is eternal here is the smoke of their torment, not the persons. Smoke persists long after the fire.
 
So the smoke has no rest day or night?

As it is translated, the object that has no rest day or night is "they", which would be an identification of the persons who worship the beast.


I doubt those who worship the beast were given the gift of eternal life. What think you?
 
As it is translated, the object that has no rest day or night is "they", which would be an identification of the persons who worship the beast.


I doubt those who worship the beast were given the gift of eternal life. What think you?

It says they have no rest. Is death a rest?
 
It says they have no rest. Is death a rest?

No. Death is death. Why would you think that death is a rest? Death does not refresh you.

I'll repeat my question, do you think those that worship the beast are given the gift of eternal life?
 
Rev 6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
 
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They are given everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Notice the contrast,

One group is raised and judged positively to everlasting life.

One group is raised and judged negatively and they don't have everlasting life, meaning they will die again. What is eternal is the contempt for them.
 
Why to reject the doctrine of "Hell".

The stuff below is mine, but for more information, see the website: edit link violation

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is difficult prove something doesn't exist when somebody imagines it is true. Such a proof is a form of proving a negative, however there are means of proving a negative. To do so, you typically show something isn't there when it should be present, I.e. absence of evidence is evidence of absence. For example, if you don't feel your car keys in your pocket, you have sufficiently proven the negative of the presence of your car keys in your pocket. Some people will however insist that this is insufficient evidence, but I would wonder how they function in life.

Similarly, the doctrine of "hell" is something people imagine is taught in the bible. It isn't. Like many things, it is taught by the churches, but it isn't taught in the bible.

First, notice that "hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe. Everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes the sun, moon, earth, etc... as objects, putting Hebrews thousands of years ahead of everybody else and when it spread to the gentiles, it advanced them as well. Genesis 1 describes the creation, including the heavens. Yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned. This is a serious omission if the doctrine of hell is a true doctrine.

Second, notice that "hell" is absent where it should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is condemned. Adam and Eve are promised a fruitful womb and painful childbirth, conflict between the sexes, work, and last but not least, the condemnation: "from dust you are and to dust you will return". They are not condemned to fiery torment, they are condemned with returning to the dust. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the truth is that you will die. The doctrine of hell teaches that you will live forever, it is the same lie the serpent told.

Third, notice that the condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. It does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment. In teaching of the salvation of man, the bible teaches that man is saved from death, not saved from eternal conscious torment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding passages used to support such a monumental doctrine as a redefinition of death are thin. The primary passage is "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31 (Link). But look closely at the passage, this is a parable by Jesus, not a description of actual events. For example:
  • Heaven isn't mentioned in the passage. It speaks of "the bosom of Abraham". This place isn't defined in scripture,
  • Likewise, "hades" or "hell" place mentioned in the passage isn't described in scripture either.
  • These people are taken bodily. The rich man looks with his eyes, he wants a drop of water from a finger placed upon his tongue. These body parts rot away in the grave, they aren't carried away by angels.
  • There is a gulf between Abraham and the rich man, yet the rich man wants Lazarus to come visit him.
  • The rich man speaks and has a conversation with Abraham. Not with angels, or whatever else. He speaks to Abraham.
  • Abraham is dead and has not received his reward (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Abraham isn't in Abraham's bosom.

And of course, compare the introduction of the parable to the previous parable,

Luke 16:1 “There was a rich man whose
Luke 16:19 “There was a rich man who

Other than declaring it a parable, he couldn't make it any more obvious that this is a parable.

It can be argued that Jesus did not call it a parable, however only 11 of his 26+ parables in Luke are actually called parables. What the story in Luke 16 is actually about is in verses 14-15 Jesus attacks the Pharisees and materialism, and this materialism is why they killed him. He tells a parable specifically directed to the Pharisees, and for them to understand. Examine the characters and the story:
  • a Rich Man (High Priest Caiphas)
  • his Father (Annas) (High priest when Jesus was a child)
  • the sons of the Father (Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, Ananus) (also high priests)
  • who all were wealthy
  • were well studied in Moses and the Prophets.
  • And his promise to these men was that though one would rise from the dead, they would not repent.
The prediction of the parable actually happened. Lazarus rose from the dead and they all the more wanted to kill him (John 12:9-11) rather than repent. Jesus rose from the dead and they did not repent.

This parable was given to the Pharisees, not to somebody who has never heard of the God of Israel and his son. This parable isn't for the unknowing, this parable is for those well steeped in the bible. If this is a teaching for all mankind and the lost who have never heard of Jesus Christ, it is very much in the wrong place. It should have been in Genesis.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion, the doctrine of "hell" is Pagan claptrap and should be discarded as a doctrine. The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious torment), and the gift of God is eternal life.

God's gift is not eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell, God's gift is eternal life (period).
What book or web page do you get your talking points from?

If you want to feel at home and accepted? Go to a Jehovah Witness web page.
 
What book or web page do you get your talking points from?

I'm sorry you were unable to read and comprehend the second sentence.

If you want to feel at home and accepted? Go to a Jehovah Witness web page.

I have no idea what this is about and am unable to derive the logical construct that led to it. I have given no indication that I am a JW or that I wish to feel at home or accepted.
 
I'm sorry you were unable to read and comprehend the second sentence.



I have no idea what this is about and am unable to derive the logical construct that led to it. I have given no indication that I am a JW or that I wish to feel at home or accepted.

Are you SDA?
 
Rev 6:9-11
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should REST yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Do you not think that you are at the wrong end of the bible to if you wish to establish a doctrine? The rest of the bible teaches you how to understand Revelation, not the other way around.

But let's actually read the passage and see if we can interpret it literally.

9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Are we to believe that under the golden altar or incense God has imprisoned those who had been slain because of the word of God, and was telling them to stay there and rest while the rest of their brethren were murdered? Are you claiming that these should get tired?

Or would it be more valid to say that this passage is symbolic, and what is happening is that the living group saints are praying during a period of time of persecution where they watch their brethren die. Praying is what you do at the golden altar of incense, God is answering their prayers telling them that they would come out of the persecution refreshed and stronger, and he will answer their prayers and avenge them, which is what he does at the beginning of chapter 8.

 
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