The Immortal Soul

[Semmelweis Reflex]

The spirit of an unsaved person does not die at the same time the body dies, even though the spirit is mortal. It will eventually die at the second death at the lake of fire, but not before. Between the death of the body and the second death, that unsaved spirit is alive in the outer darkness in pitch black and no sound except their own wailing and gnashing teeth.

First off, it is the Old Testament that refers to a person as a soul. The New Testament is where the born again are triune - spirit, soul and body. Of the three the spirit and soul are the mind and conscience, otherwise known as the heart where the laws are written and become immortal while their body is still mortal awaiting the change to immortality.

Another thing. Adam was created immortal. When he willfully sinned, his spirit, soul and body all became mortal. It is only a born again person whose spirit and soul become immortal first, and their mortal body will become immortal at the resurrection when it is changed.

Although the sins of the OT saints were passed over so as long as they served God they were immortal and went to heaven with Jesus when He ascended 40 days after His resurrection.

You're going to need a lot of scriptural references to support all of that.

1. The spirit isn't alive. See pneuma.
2. The terms Old Testament and New Testament are misnomers based upon a Latin mistranslation for covenant. There is no Old and New Testament. There's only one.
3. Spirit is breath, wind, compelled mental inclination (i.e. mean spirited, low in spirit, broken spirit). Soul is life, life experiences, blood. What? No metaphysical/theological jargon for the plain ol' body? The body is one with the universe, man. We are all one. Part of a multiune.
4. Adam was created to live forever. Can the immortal die as he did? The Bible is full of warnings for the born again immortal. If they mess up they, like Adam, ain't immortal no more.
5. Saints? What is that?

 

[shnarkle]

What terms?

Sin and mortality.

The idea of a soul being a separate part of persons or animals isn't scriptural.

Strawman argument.

We all sin. We are all souls. We all die.

This only refers to those who are still carnal. It doesn't apply to the new creation.

Oh, brother. No it isn't.

Yes, it is.

When they say the souls were lost they mean their life ended.

No. They don't. They're referring to each individual person.

Soul and life are, depending upon context, somewhat interchangeable.

Agreed.

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth. Soul for soul, life for life, blood for blood are pretty much the same thing.

Not really. An eye for an eye refers to the value of an eye which varies.

The soul is in the blood

Regardless, the soul is not the blood itself.

Do you think that the soul, according to the Bible, is destructible? Not that it has to be but can it be?

Of course, the soul that sins shall die, but that's beside the fact that the soul that keeps God's law shall live. They are not mutually exclusive propositions.

Do the souls of the wicked suffer literal punishment in literal fiery torment,

No.

 

[shnarkle]

You're going to need a lot of scriptural references to support all of that.

1. The spirit isn't alive.

The spirit returns to God who gave it Ecclesiastes 12:7 Please point out where the bible states that those spirits return to God to die.

See pneuma.
2. The terms Old Testament and New Testament are misnomers based upon a Latin mistranslation for covenant. There is no Old and New Testament. There's only one.

False. The author of Hebrews usefully observes that only those who sinned under "the first testament" are redeemed. Hebrews 9:15

3. Spirit is breath, wind,

False. The Greek word for wind is 'anima'.

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

Where are the other several hundred passages that further develop the idea of the soul, and it's end?

These aren't the only passages that describe it.

In doing a word search, I get well over 700 instances of the word, nephesh, that describe the soul in various situations and conditions.

So, do you actually think that you have a valid position based solely on 2 verses?

Yes. If you can find two scriptures that support your proposition that's all you need. Those do. So, conversely, all you have to do is provide two that support yours. Curious that you haven't done that, have you? Isn't the Bible incredible. Pssst! [Looks around, then whispers] That's why the atheist criticism of cherry-picking should never apply.

Go do a comprehensive word search on soul, in the bible.

I have. Many, many times.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Isn't the Bible incredible.

I find it the most credible book on the planet.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

Except for the part about Heli?

You don't read very well, do you? What does the first sentence of the sixth paragraph of my new OP about Heli say?

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

Mod comment:

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[shnarkle]

I don't care

Obviously.

the Bible doesn't support the idea of the immortal soul of Greek philosophy later adopted by apostate Christianity.

I'm not referring to Greek philosophy or even Christianity of whatever brand you choose. More Strawman arguments.

Where do you guys get this from? Carnal?

Romans 8

The new creation isn't carnal.

The new creation isn't dead either.

The meek who inherit the earth aren't carnal?

What's your point?

Some translations will have soul where other translations have life.

And Christ points out that he IS THE LIFE.

Genesis 9:4: Only flesh with its soul - its blood - you must not eat.

Dietary laws were done away with remember?

Deuteronomy 12:23: Simply be firmly resolved not to eat the blood, because the blood is the soul and you must not eat the soul with the flesh.
Also see Leviticus 17:11, 14.

More dietary laws. Do you refrain from consuming pork and shellfish as well? Do you keep the Sabbath? Do you pay interest on loans?

In effect the soul is the blood in that it is in the blood.

The soul cannot be the blood and be in the blood simultaneously. You're conflating the contents with the container.

It represents life.

By definition, representations are NOT what they represent.

Sometimes translated life because life and soul are the same. It's just that the concept of the philosophical immortal soul confuses things.

Then don't bring it up anymore.

So, Jesus sinned, didn't keep God's law and so he died?

Non Sequitur. If you have some sort of argument, you'd like to present pointing out how you came to that conclusion, be my guest.

Why not?

Because death is thrown into the lake of fire LAST. If death were thrown into the lake of fire before anyone else, then they would not be able to be consumed in the lake of fire. They would never die. They would suffer for eternity.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

...... the Bible doesn't support the idea of the immortal soul ......

So maybe you picture God at the end of time making this announcement:

"OK, all ye creatures made in My image. It's been fun. But it's all over now. All ye souls in heaven and those of thee upon earth who participated in the millennial kingdom or who are burning in the lake of fire or experiencing outer darkness, say goodbye to one another. All ye guys in Abraham's bosom. Clear out of there. Thee too Abe, and take thy bosom with thee. We're closing up shop. I'm gonna go back to my pre-creation state as the lonely God. I haven't decided yet as to whether there will be a Creation II, but I sure don't want the agony of another crucifixion.

"And ye angels and cherubim and seraphim: Ye guys don't have souls, so I may let thee keep on living. But all ye mankind folks, those with Greek or pagan souls, ye'all will be annihilated on the count of three. Sorry, no immortality for thee. I forgot to specifically state it in my Book. "

 

[Furion]

Don't associate me with the OP's beliefs. I just find it funny you two seem to be saying the same things, but you say no. I think I know the problem. You or the OP believes the spirit dies when the body dies. Whoever believes that is wrong. The live spirit leaves the dead body and if it is saved it goes to the Father awaiting the resurrection of the body. If the body of an unsaved person dies, their spirit is still alive and goes to the outer darkness, not to hell. Both the saved and unsaved spirits go back to their bodies when they are raised from the dead. There is debate if all the saved are raised in the first resurrection, but Revelation says only martyrs will reign with Christ for the 1000 years. Then comes the second resurrection when the unsaved live spirits from the outer darkness rejoin with their raised body and stand before the throne of God to be judged. It could be that the nominal Christians who never were martyred are raised in the second resurrection also and God checks all names to see if they are written in the Book of Life or not. If not they are thrown into the lake of fire which is called the "second" death, and that is when their mortal spirit can finally die. And of course, if their name IS written in the Book of Life they join their brethren in heaven.

Ahem. I've told you what I believe.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

This is the resurrection of the dead, it comes with a body, just like the resurrection to life comes with a body.

Soul annihilation is what the OP proposes. If you believe in that, then say so.

 

[SteveB]

edit

Ok.
I have two bible passages that support a specific course of action.

Mat 27:5 WEB ........ Then he went away and hanged himself.

Luk 10:37 WEB ........” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

Do you actually think that it's a good idea to pull two disparate passages and build a doctrine from them?

If so, you should follow Judas' example.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ahem. I've told you what I believe.

John 5:29
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

This is the resurrection of the dead, it comes with a body, just like the resurrection to life comes with a body.

Soul annihilation is what the OP proposes. If you believe in that, then say so.

I don't know what you believe outside we have a body. And I can't relate to anything in the OP. I didn't even finish reading it because there wasn't anything truthful to learn. And sorry but you don't know much nor want to learn anything so I'll just go to another post and say good bye to you both.

 

[SteveB]

You can't possibly be that stupid.

I'm not. But it's pretty clear that you have built a false teaching around two passages, when the bible gives over 700 passages that describe the nature of the soul.
You've further demonstrated that you have selected pagan, and apostate sources in building your false beliefs.

Edit per mod.

 

[Whatsisface]

edit

You are relatively new here, right?

 

[Semmelweis Reflex]

edit

Just two, STVB, that's all you need. Two verses that say the soul can't be destroyed or killed. You can't do it. Do you know how I know that you can't do it? Because I have provided two that says it can. So it can. It is possible, that through some mistranslation, interpolation, or misinterpretation you could find two that appear to support that the soul can't die or be destroyed and then we can investigate the anomaly, but, I mean, do you want to go through the 700? Let's not. At least not until you test me - just two, STVB.

 

[SteveB]

edit

Mar 9:43-48 WEB 43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having your two hands to go into Gehenna, into the unquenchable fire, 44 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 45 If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame, rather than having your two feet to be cast into Gehenna, into the fire that will never be quenched— 46 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’ 47 If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out. It is better for you to enter into God’s Kingdom with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into the Gehenna of fire, 48 ‘where their worm doesn’t die, and the fire is not quenched.’




Mat 25:41 WEB Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;

Rev 14:9-11 WEB 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a great voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is prepared unmixed in the cup of his anger. He will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.

Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[Whatsisface]

Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

It's hell for you then.

 

[SteveB]

It's hell for you then.

Rather curious thing about this.

Do you really think that by pointing out what you believe to be my sin, you are innocent?

It's written that God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

Are you really ready to spend your eternity in the lake of fire to win an argument against him?

 

[Whatsisface]

Rather curious thing about this.

No you're not.

Do you really think that by pointing out what you believe to be my sin, you are innocent?

Try to think, it's not what I believe to be your sin, it's what you believe is your sin.

It's written that God saves to the uttermost ALL who come to him through Jesus Christ.

It's also written … Rev 21:8 WEB But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.”

Looks like another Biblical contradiction then, or you're going to hell.

<Usual ridiculous question snipped>

 

[e v e 21]

the soul is nephesh, a living being…
and means body and soul
as the original being man had in eden

not this current fleshbody.