Is everthing written in the Book of Mormon archaelogically and historically accurate...

[Aaron32]

Paul R. Cheeseman gives a shadow of support to this minority view that the BoM is not supposed to be read as historical but spiritual and an attempt to qualify archeaological evidence to "support" or "sustain" the BoM. I don’t know if this will help or hurt your position but remembered this topic was broached earlier this year.

Is there anything that has been found among the archaeological evidences that would sustain or support the Book of Mormon?

Is there anything that has been found among the archaeological evidences that would sustain or support the Book of Mormon?

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

Most BYU professors attempting to document archeological proof of the BoM generally give that preface. I know some people enjoy the study, but to me it's all postulation on a secondary matter, so I don't give the topic much attention.

 

[dberrie2020]

This history cannot, repeat, cannot be proved. There has never been a shred of evidence, not counting the evidences that were co-opted to support Smiths narrative, presented.

I disagree. There is mounting evidence to support the Book of Mormon history:

EDITED--TOO MANY LINKS, PLUS, LINKS TO NON-OFFICIAL MORMON SITES NOT ALLOWED

You might want to read the article. There are also plenty of non-LDS articles which state similar things.

I have already posted the article about horses--and barley--which were thought to be non-existent during that time period--but now has evidence to support it.

Wow--how could Joseph Smith have known all that?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

How are you relating the KFD to the EC's statements? all of those were about our destiny. The KFD described God's nature and His relationship to us.

It's the theosis comparison of EO and LDS except Mormonism validates its theology that their God was once a man and so every faithful Mormon can also become a God. Do you deny that?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

I disagree. There is mounting evidence to support the Book of Mormon history:

EDITED

According to Parley P. Pratt, early critics dismissed the Book of Mormon, saying, "there were no antiquities in America, no ruined cities, buildings, monuments, inscriptions, mounds, or fortifications, to show the existence of such a people as the Book of Mormon described."

Based on this new evidence from the Maya lowlands, these grandiose descriptions are not so far-fetched after all. The details in this story support dozens of verses in the Book of Mormon that describe dense populations, sophisticated economies, road networks, large-scale agriculture, intensive land use, disaster-prone landscapes, and prevalent warfare. Even statements about "the whole face of the land" being covered by people and buildings may have been more than just hyperbole.

These new LiDAR images have revleaed 60,000 previously unknown structures, leading experts to new population estimates as high as 15–20 million for the lowland Maya during the Classic period. This means Maya civilization was much more dense, complex and advanced than previously thought. This is consistent with the situation described by Mormon: "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea" (Mormon 1:7). Early Book of Mormon authors made similar descriptions (Mosiah 27:6; Jarom 1:8)."

You might want to read the article. There are also plenty of non-LDS articles which state similar things.

I have already posted the article about horses--and barley--which were thought to be non-existent during that time period--but now has evidence to support it.

Wow--how could Joseph Smith have known all that?

The use of LiDAR to reveal past buildings, roads and populated areas in Central America does in no way validate Smith's claims in the BoM. It's no surprise that there existed a substantial civilization, pre-Columbian. What I find fascinating and yet, not surprising, is how Mormon's will latch onto any newly discovered archaeological finds, such as this most recent one, and claim "Wow--how could Joseph Smith known all that?". Much information is known of the Mayan, Aztec, Toltec and other pre-Columbian indigenous populations that inhabited North, Central and South America and not a shred point to Smith's claims in the BoM. I understand your desire to shoehorn this new information into your religious belief system as Smith's claims are dependent upon historical evidence, but the evidence weighs solidly against such claims.

 

[dberrie2020]

The use of LiDAR to reveal past buildings, roads and populated areas in Central America does in no way validate Smith's claims in the BoM.

Please allow me to point out something here:

No one knew the population base was anywhere near what the Book of Mormon writers claimed it to be. Not even close. That was one of the objections to the Book of Mormon history, IE--there was no way the population could have been that high. It was estimated there might have been 1 million max. The thought was held for over a century--until recently--when the LiDAR technology was employed. Even the archeologists are amazed. The estimate is now 15-20 million, and rising.

How did Joseph Smith know that--if it was him which constructed that history?

Yes, Lastday--that does validate that historical part of the Book of Mormon--to the dismay of the critics.

There are also additional discoveries of the LiDAR scope--which validates other Book of Mormon history, IE--that warfare was more widespread than previously thought--and structures containing advanced food and animals at an industrial level. The Book of Mormon similarly talks about the vast production of food and domestication of animals--and constant warfare.

It's no surprise that there existed a substantial civilization, pre-Columbian. What I find fascinating and yet, not surprising, is how Mormon's will latch onto any newly discovered archaeological finds,

Why shouldn't they? These are major discoveries which support Book of Mormon history--contrary to your postulations.

such as this most recent one, and claim "Wow--how could Joseph Smith known all that?".

And--I ask again--how could Joseph Smith have a knowledge of all that? Wow--double wow. In 1830--next to nothing was know about that area.

Much information is known of the Mayan, Aztec, Toltec and other pre-Columbian indigenous populations that inhabited North, Central and South America

You are being gullible and presumptous--there was nothing of the sort known in 1830.

and not a shred point to Smith's claims in the BoM.

That's nothing but denial--and you are welcome to it.

I understand your desire to shoehorn this new information into your religious belief system as Smith's claims are dependent upon historical evidence, but the evidence weighs solidly against such claims.

Why are truths which validate the Book of Mormon history considered as--"evidence weighs solidly against such claims."? I know the truth hurts sometimes--but that isn't reason to conflate your prejudice against the science which validates Book of Mormon history.

 

[Yitoz]

Are you aware of the recent Lidar discoveries ?

EDITED

One of the objections to Book of Mormon claims was the population base. The critics have maintained there were probably no more than 1 million people in that area, contrary to the claims of Book of Mormon writers.

Now--with the new technology:

"These new LiDAR images have revealed 60,000 previously unknown structures, leading experts to new population estimates as high as 15–20 million for the lowland Maya during the Classic period. This means Maya civilization was much more dense, complex and advanced than previously thought. This is consistent with the situation described by Mormon: "The whole face of the land had become covered with buildings, and the people were as numerous almost, as it were the sand of the sea" (Mormon 1:7). Early Book of Mormon authors made similar descriptions (Mosiah 27:6; Jarom 1:8)."

You might want to read the article. I would give the secular rendition for it, but this is from BOM Central. Those outside the church have given similar descriptions. I have already posted the horse article here--which the critics have had a field day with, denying horses existed during that time. Now, they may want to reconsider, considering the new evidence.

Also---the infrastructure is overwhelming--another point of critical doubt, but now confirmed.

Like you have posted, the lidar discoveries are of Mayan origin and only adequately describe those civilizations. To claim that any of these findings validate Joseph's book of myth is an argument out of silence. You still have not presented tangible evidence for mormon claims. This is just as spurious as the NHM claims posted on this thread in the past. There are also other 'new' find in central and south america that show that those cultures aligned their buildings with solstices and the position of the sun and moon during certain time of the year. None of these recently found cities show any relationship to what would have been expected from a Hebrew culture that came from the levant. Y'all are in the same dilemma that you have been in for decades in that you offer questionable and spurious 'findings' sans any tangible archaeological evidence. It's all happy talk for the gullible in the wards/stakes.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Please allow me to point out something here:

No one knew the population base was anywhere near what the Book of Mormon writers claimed it to be. Not even close. That was one of the objections to the Book of Mormon history, IE--there was no way the population could have been that high. It was estimated there might have been 1 million max. The thought was held for over a century--until recently--when the LiDAR technology was employed. Even the archeologists are amazed. The estimate is now 15-20 million, and rising.

Estimations are based on best provided evidences. Now, the estimation has risen because of the new LiDAR findings. No surprise.

How did Joseph Smith know that--if it was him which constructed that history?

Not sure where you were going with that but clearly Smith had a very fertile imagination. I remember reading somewhere where Smith would entertain his family with fanciful stories created from his imagination, so...

Yes, Lastday--that does validate that historical part of the Book of Mormon--to the dismay of the critics.

So you say. The majority of professional archaeologists disagree, vehemently, with Mormon claims.

There are also additional discoveries of the LiDAR scope--which validates other Book of Mormon history, IE--that warfare was more widespread than previously thought--and structures containing advanced food and animals at an industrial level. The Book of Mormon similarly talks about the vast production of food and domestication of animals--and constant warfare.

Unsurprisingly to support the estimated millions it would make logical sense there was some sort of supporting system to sustain them. And, equally, as they exhausted their resources their civilizations disappeared. Still not proof of what Smith wrote.

Why shouldn't they? These are major discoveries which support Book of Mormon history--contrary to your postulations.

I already stated I understand why.

And--I ask again--how could Joseph Smith have a knowledge of all that? Wow--double wow. In 1830--next to nothing was know about that area.

Not confirmation. Just postulation and a very vivid imagination from a period where many were speculating on where native Indians came from.

You are being gullible and presumptous--there was nothing of the sort known in 1830.

No. Realistic.

That's nothing but denial--and you are welcome to it.

Smith was a brilliant man. Obviously. Given he, even in death, has been able to create a narrative that is attractive to so many, such as yourself.

Why are truths which validate the Book of Mormon history considered as--"evidence weighs solidly against such claims."? I know the truth hurts sometimes--but that isn't reason to conflate your prejudice against the science which validates Book of Mormon history.

I am not prejudiced, and I am fully aware of the truth. I am combating a false religion, a cult, that has attempted to destroy Christ's church. Nothing personal against you.

 

[dberrie2020]

Estimations are based on best provided evidences. Now, the estimation has risen because of the new LiDAR findings. No surprise.

Of course it's because of the scientific evidence provided. That's the evidence which supports the historical portion of the Book of Mormon.

Not sure where you were going with that but clearly Smith had a very fertile imagination.

The evidence provided through scientific means confirms it was more than an imagination--it is a reality, as to the evidence provided by LiDAR, and the matching history in the Book of Mormon.

One can only suggest it's imaginary if there is no evidence to support it. That evidence is now established--and it supports the historical portions of the Book of Mormon in a number of substantial areas--which was doubted for over a century and a half.

So you say. The majority of professional archaeologists disagree, vehemently, with Mormon claims.

They disagreed with Book of Mormon claims in the very area they are now finding evidence for. Historical evidence takes a long time to uncover--and very little work has been done in that area of archeology in most areas of Mesoamerica.

I suppose we need to thank the high tech men and women who provided the means to discover that--we might not have ever known that, otherwise.

Unsurprisingly to support the estimated millions it would make logical sense there was some sort of supporting system to sustain them. And, equally, as they exhausted their resources their civilizations disappeared. Still not proof of what Smith wrote.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon about exhausting their resources and disappearing--but you are downplaying things which have heretofore been major sticking points and areas of disagreement. That's usually what happens when discoveries happen that violate the commonly held beliefs.

The Book of Mormon writers are now vindicated, in those areas. How do you suppose they knew that?

I already stated I understand why.

Not confirmation. Just postulation and a very vivid imagination from a period where many were speculating on where native Indians came from.

There was nothing in the LiDAR report about where Indians came from. But what they did discover--coupled with the Book of Mormon history well. Again--the Book of Mormon writers got it right, and the reason being--they were there. They witnessed it. They knew. Now we know.

No. Realistic.

Smith was a brilliant man. Obviously. Given he, even in death, has been able to create a narrative that is attractive to so many, such as yourself.

Brillance does not make a seer. Only God can empower a man to do that. It isn't only an "attractive" narrative--we now know some historical parts which were disputed for over a century--are true.

The question being, IMO--if that is true--what else about the Book of Mormon is true? If the critics were wrong on those accounts--what else are they wrong about?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Of course it's because of the scientific evidence provided. That's the evidence which supports the historical portion of the Book of Mormon.

The scientific evidence discovered contains not one reference, inference, hieroglyph, pottery, name or any other claim found in Smiths BoM. This may be something that escapes you.

The evidence provided through scientific means confirms it was more than an imagination--it is a reality, as to the evidence provided by LiDAR, and the matching history in the Book of Mormon.

Smith is not the first author to write an imaginative tale

One can only suggest it's imaginary if there is no evidence to support it. That evidence is now established--and it supports the historical portions of the Book of Mormon in a number of substantial areas--which was doubted for over a century and a half.

it's not established. That's a pipe dream. Show me one piece of empirical evidence that relates any physical evidence related to the specific. peoples (lamanites, neophytes, jaradites or mulekites) Smith named innthe BoM. Even just one name on a hieroglyph or piece of hide, or scribed on a piece of pottery....I'll wait.

They disagreed with Book of Mormon claims in the very area they are now finding evidence for. Historical evidence takes a long time to uncover--and very little work has been done in that area of archeology in most areas of Mesoamerica.

You keep stating that these newest discoveries are empirical evidences. These are not.

I suppose we need to thank the high tech men and women who provided the means to discover that--we might not have ever known that, otherwise.

As technology advances we are going to see other discoveries, world wide, and yet not one will be evidence of the historicity of the BoM.

There is nothing in the Book of Mormon about exhausting their resources and disappearing--

That's because it's not in the BoM. The meso-American civilizations exhausted their resources and these civilizations disintegrated, now brought to light by LiDAR.

but you are downplaying things which have heretofore been major sticking points and areas of disagreement. That's usually what happens when discoveries happen that violate the commonly held beliefs.

I'm not downplaying, I'm literally calling your suppositions wrong. Period.

The Book of Mormon writers are now vindicated, in those areas. How do you suppose they knew that?

These fictional characters related a fictional account of a fictional history written by Joseph Smith.

There was nothing in the LiDAR report about where Indians came from.

Um...there wouldn't be. That's ethnology and DnA.

But what they did discover--coupled with the Book of Mormon history well. Again--the Book of Mormon writers got it right, and the reason being--they were there. They witnessed it. They knew. Now we know.

So you say, over and over, and yet that doesn't make it true.

Brillance does not make a seer. Only God can empower a man to do that. It isn't only an "attractive" narrative--we now know some historical parts which were disputed for over a century--are true.

Name one. I'm curious.

The question being, IMO--if that is true--what else about the Book of Mormon is true? If the critics were wrong on those accounts--what else are they wrong about?

See, again, you keep repeating this as if it's a proven fact. Still not true.

 

[dberrie2020]

The scientific evidence discovered contains not one reference, inference, hieroglyph, pottery, name or any other claim found in Smiths BoM. This may be something that escapes you.

LOL!!! I'm not sure that's how archeology works. One finds one discovery at a time--until the layers are peeled back.

What has been established is the population base, structures, and a number of particulars which conflate with Book of Mormon history.

Please don't minimize the importance of those discoveries. It's huge. If it's not significant to you--it is for the LDS and archeology.

Smith is not the first author to write an imaginative tale

According to the data uncovered by LiDAR--not as imaginative as once thought. With the new evidence, I believe it deserves a closer look.

it's not established. That's a pipe dream. Show me one piece of empirical evidence that relates any physical evidence related to the specific. peoples (lamanites, neophytes, jaradites or mulekites) Smith named innthe BoM. Even just one name on a hieroglyph or piece of hide, or scribed on a piece of pottery....I'll wait.

I think you should wait--as what has been found--supports Book of Mormon claims and history.

You keep stating that these newest discoveries are empirical evidences. These are not.

What has been discovered is empirical evidence---it is based on evidence and observation. What isn't empirical--is making claims which can't be verified--such as--this evidence really has nothing to do with Book of Mormon history.

As technology advances we are going to see other discoveries, world wide, and yet not one will be evidence of the historicity of the BoM.

Large populations and structures is compatible with Book of Mormon claims--especially seeing that's the area claimed as Book of Mormon history.

That's because it's not in the BoM. The meso-American civilizations exhausted their resources and these civilizations disintegrated, now brought to light by LiDAR.

That has not been firmly established, as of yet. You are anxious to establish things which are not yet proven--and yet, readily chunk what has been established--out the window. Not very objective, IMO--and showing the hem of prejudice.

I'm not downplaying, I'm literally calling your suppositions wrong. Period.

What do you feel is wrong about the LiDAR discoveries?

These fictional characters related a fictional account of a fictional history written by Joseph Smith.

That's just a prejudice--that has not been established, as to the archeology of Mesoamerica and Book of Mormon claims.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

LOL!!! I'm not sure that's how archeology works. One finds one discovery at a time--until the layers are peeled back.

What has been established is the population base, structures, and a number of particulars which conflate with Book of Mormon history.

Please don't minimize the importance of those discoveries. It's huge. If it's not significant to you--it is for the LDS and archeology.



According to the data uncovered by LiDAR--not as imaginative as once thought. With the new evidence, I believe it deserves a closer look.



I think you should wait--as what has been found--supports Book of Mormon claims and history.



What has been discovered is empirical evidence---it is based on evidence and observation. What isn't empirical--is making claims which can't be verified--such as--this evidence really has nothing to do with Book of Mormon history.



Large populations and structures is compatible with Book of Mormon claims--especially seeing that's the area claimed as Book of Mormon history.



That has not been firmly established, as of yet. You are anxious to establish things which are not yet proven--and yet, readily chunk what has been established--out the window. Not very objective, IMO--and showing the hem of prejudice.



What do you feel is wrong about the LiDAR discoveries?



That's just a prejudice--that has not been established, as to the archeology of Mesoamerica and Book of Mormon claims.

And up until this discovery nothing of the mesoAmerican cultures has been known (all the Mayan, Incan, Toltec, etc.) and that is why it has been silent regarding Smiths claims until now so ignore past discoveries because now these further revealed ruins of a past already discovered peoples "proves" the BoM. Ridiculous.

 

[Aaron32]

And up until this discovery nothing of the mesoAmerican cultures has been known (all the Mayan, Incan, Toltec, etc.) and that is why it has been silent regarding Smiths claims until now so ignore past discoveries because now these further revealed ruins of a past already discovered peoples "proves" the BoM. Ridiculous.

You're just a skeptic, taking the default view of criticism unless it's proven beyond the shadow down of a doubt. Just as atheists are skeptical of the Bible. No evidence whatsoever will change your priori assumption that the Book of Mormon is false. You must prove it false to be false, else it's a plausibility. But, as I've said, there's not enough evidence to declare confirmation either way.

 

[Magdalena]

It’s Mormons who are claiming the book is true, so it’s up to them to prove it. Not the job of everyone else to prove it’s wrong.

 

[dberrie2020]

And up until this discovery nothing of the mesoAmerican cultures has been known (all the Mayan, Incan, Toltec, etc.) and that is why it has been silent regarding Smiths claims until now....

But the critics weren't silent--they rejected the idea the population base was as large as the Book of Mormon claimed--and was one of the reasons the Book of Mormon was thought to contain false History--as to that point. The size of the population claimed in the Book of Mormon was confirmed by LiDAR.

The sceptics were very vocal about the population claim for quite a number of years following the publishing of the Book of Mormon.

Again--please don't mitigate that point--it's huge. Much larger than the critics may want to admit.

so ignore past discoveries

What "past discoveries"?

because now these further revealed ruins of a past already discovered peoples "proves" the BoM. Ridiculous.

No one has claimed this "proves the BoM"--that is an exaggeration. One does not need to exaggerate to find the truths associated with the LiDAR discoveries, or to see how they correlate to some of the history claimed in the Book of Mormon--which history has been criticized for some time now by the critics. It's a known fact now, as to the LiDAR revelations.

Lastdays--I know this doesn't fit your perspective--but prejudice was never the source of truth. Truth stands independent of all spheres which surround it--including your prejudices.

 

[Aaron32]

It’s Mormons who are claiming the book is true, so it’s up to them to prove it. Not the job of everyone else to prove it’s wrong.

Actually, it's God claiming the book is true. It gives instructions how to receive that witness particularly in Alma 32, and Moroni 10. If you didn't receive the answer as I have, blame God, not me.
Everyone rejects the truth at their own peril. I can invite a skeptic to understand the Law of Gravity, and the skeptic might be skeptical about my claims, always finding a reason to question. But if the skeptic jumps off a cliff, they will be facing the consequences of their action, not me.

 

[dberrie2020]

It’s Mormons who are claiming the book is true, so it’s up to them to prove it. Not the job of everyone else to prove it’s wrong.

It could easily be said to be a double standard--that the LDS have to prove the BOM true--but the critics are free to make the claim it's false--with impunity.

 

[Magdalena]

It could easily be said to be a double standard--that the LDS have to prove the BOM true--but the critics are free to make the claim it's false--with impunity.

No one is preventing you from proving it true. If you just want to argue that we shouldn’t be able to present facts as well, that’s not reasonable. That’s not discussion. Don’t expect to not be challenged.

 

[dberrie2020]

No one is preventing you from proving it true.

If one would read the posts above--proof is given for certain points found within the Book of Mormon. Care to engage that?

If you just want to argue that we shouldn’t be able to present facts as well, that’s not reasonable.

Cite, please. I haven't argued any such point. My perspective is--if the LDS need to provide proof for their points--then the critics should also.

When you state the Book of Mormon is false--what is your proof?

 

[Magdalena]

If one would read the posts above--proof is given for certain points found within the Book of Mormon. Care to engage that?



Cite, please. I haven't argued any such point. My perspective is--if the LDS need to provide proof for their points--then the critics should also.

When you state the Book of Mormon is false--what is your proof?

You turn a blind eye to all the responses to your arguments, and all the evidence that’s been presented here for years. And you just continue to spam the board with the same obsessive statements over and over. Then you claim that no one ever answers you. And you’ve stated that you’re just here for your own entertainment.

 

[Bonnie]

You turn a blind eye to all the responses to your arguments, and all the evidence that’s been presented here for years. And you just continue to spam the board with the same obsessive statements over and over. Then you claim that no one ever answers you. And you’ve stated that you’re just here for your own entertainment.

Ah, you remember that, eh? I archived some of that from the last boards.

Lidar discoveries have been discussed on here before, right when these boards first came back up:

  - Lidar

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/news/2018/02/maya-laser-lidar-guatemala-pacunam/ Has anyone read the above article as of yet? The reason I post it---one of the claims found in the Book of Mormon is a wide population base, and--if the Central America area was one of the areas of population...

forums.carm.org

It was also discussed a board or two before this one, by another Mormon, who somehow thought that Lidar proved the BoM true. All Lidar has done is show that the Mayan civilization was larger and more populous than previously supposed.

But thank you for validating what I have written in my signature, nos. 1-5, under the Mormon debate tactics.