"come to know Him"--and obeying the commandments

brotherofJared said:
What @Aaron32 failed to mention is that ALL the law and the prophets lead to those two commandments. All of them.
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Please don't speak for me.
No, I'm not saying that.
I'm saying focusing on loving God, and loving others as ourselves results in keeping the law and the prophets. Whatever we are doing contrary to loving God or loving others as ourselves, through the lens of the Old Testament law helps us identify what (false idol) we are loving more than God.
 
Janice Bower said:
Jesus came to save sinners. Paul was one of them. Jesus changed Paul's life.

There Is No One Righteous
(Psalm 14:1–7; Psalm 53:1–6; Isaiah 59:1–17)

9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,

not even one.

11There is no one who understands,

no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”c

13“Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit.”d

“The venom of vipers is on their lips.”e

14“Their mouths are full

of cursing and bitterness.”f

15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16ruin and misery lie in their wake

17and the way of peace they have not known.”g

18“There is no fear of God

before their eyes.”h

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20
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That is an OT quote under the Mosaic Law.

Here is the NT testimony:

1 John 3:7--King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do you explain that?

Janice Bower said:
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
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Again--that's a Mosaic Law reference.

Here is the NT testimony:

James 2:24---King James Version
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


《《OFF TOPIC. Take faith alone and James 2:24 to the APO board. Read the sticky at the top of the page--Moderator》》

Janice Bower said:

Unless God gives faith and salvation to a person he continues in sin. His works are as filthy rags.
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That mindset is cloaked in the Mosaic Law, as the law could save no one--here is the NT testimony:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
 
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Janice Bower said:
Jesus came to save sinners. Paul was one of them. Jesus changed Paul's life.

There Is No One Righteous
(Psalm 14:1–7; Psalm 53:1–6; Isaiah 59:1–17)

9 What then? Are we any better? Not at all. For we have already made the charge that Jews and Greeks alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous,

not even one.

11There is no one who understands,

no one who seeks God.

12All have turned away,

they have together become worthless;

there is no one who does good,

not even one.”c

13“Their throats are open graves;

their tongues practice deceit.”d

“The venom of vipers is on their lips.”e

14“Their mouths are full

of cursing and bitterness.”f

15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;

16ruin and misery lie in their wake

17and the way of peace they have not known.”g

18“There is no fear of God

before their eyes.”h

19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

That is an OT quote under the Mosaic Law.

Here is the NT testimony:

1 John 3:7--King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

How do you explain that?

Janice Bower said:
Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin.
Click to expand...

Again--that's a Mosaic Law reference.

Janice Bower said:
Romans 3

Unless God gives faith and salvation to a person he continues in sin. His works are as filthy rags.
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That mindset is cloaked in the Mosaic Law, as the law could save no one--here is the NT testimony:

Acts 10:34-35---King James Version
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

Anyone care to address this?
 
brotherofJared said:
No. Paul changed his life. Jesus gave him a reason to change it. In the end, it was up to Paul what he'd do. There is no free agency in the religions of our critics. God does everything, we're just along for the ride. It kind of creates a problem for "endure to the end". What have we to endure? God is doing all the work. It doesn't matter what we do.
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No, the Holy Spirit changed him. Before Jesus came to him outside Damascus, he was "dead in {his} trespasses and sins." He could no more choose himself to be a new creation in Christ Jesus, raised to new "life", than the dead people Jesus raised from the dead chose to have Him raise them up.

So far, I don't think you have dealt with what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2 and answered my questions about it. But just in case:

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
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So, WHO made us "alive" with Christ Jesus? (DO note that it is passive tense.) And WHY? Care to give me a straight answer to those questions?
 
Here is what "Obedience of faith" means:

Obedience to the Faith – Romans 1:5 – Grace Evangelical Society

faithalone.org faithalone.org

Jesus called people to believe in Him. Thus whenever anyone believes in Him, he is obeying Him. Saving faith is an act of obedience.

Assurance of salvation is linked to God’s promise to those who believe in Christ, not to ongoing obedience. The expression obedience to the faith does not refer to ongoing obedience to all that God has commanded. No one but the Lord Jesus has done that. If a person thought he had to obey all of God’s commands to go to heaven, then he would know he could never make it. He could never have assurance he was saved. In fact, he could be absolutely sure that he could never be saved!

We are all sinners who fall short of the glory of God (Rom 3:23). Only by God’s grace manifested in the death and resurrection of Christ can anyone be justified before God (Rom 4:1-8).

Obedience to the faith specifically refers to obeying the command to believe the Gospel. If you’ve done that, you can be sure that you’ve exercised the obedience of faith. And, since God desires that all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), whenever anyone trusts in Christ and is saved, God is pleased. That is why evangelism is something which is close to God’s heart.
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Believing the Gospel message is "obeying" Jesus. The "obedience of faith." Besides, the unregenerated would have no desire to obey God--unless and until they are made a new creation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life, great and free. Only then can they obey God and bring forth the fruit of the Spirit. And that too is all God's doing, as per Eph. 2:10.
 
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Bonnie said:
No, the Holy Spirit changed him. Before Jesus came to him outside Damascus, he was "dead in {his} trespasses and sins." He could no more choose himself to be a new creation in Christ Jesus, raised to new "life", than the dead people Jesus raised from the dead chose to have Him raise them up.
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So--are you referring to this Paul?

1 Corinthians 7:19---King James Version
19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Bonnie said:
So, WHO made us "alive" with Christ Jesus? (DO note that it is passive tense.) And WHY? Care to give me a straight answer to those questions?
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My question is--did those here become alive in Christ before, or after--this?

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 
Bonnie said:
Believing the Gospel message is "obeying" Jesus.
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So--is this a gospel message?

Acts 22:16---King James Version
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

[Bonnie said--The "obedience of faith." Besides, the unregenerated would have no desire to obey God---unless and until they are made a new creation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ for eternal life, great and free. Only then can they obey God and bring forth the fruit of the Spirit.[/quote]

Is this evidence of that?

Acts 5:31-32--King James Version
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

So--is one regenerated before they receive of His Spirit?
 
I was baptized after God told me to come from among the Mormons. I obeyed.

Here is proof that we are not our own workmanship:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Ephesians 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

We couldn't quicken ourselves. Non-believers are by nature children of wrath and fight against the word of God.

4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

If we could save ourselves, God would just say, "Do it!" But instead He makes it clear that we can't do it ourselves:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Only God can make these verses clear to those who are DEAD in sins. Unbelievers in the true God continue to reject His words.

Psam 1
1Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
 
dberrie2020 said:
Straw men constructions won't change the testimony of the scriptures:

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

The fact being--if that is true--then faith alone theology is false.

Exactly what one will find being taught in the LDS church.
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Mixing truth with hundreds of lies as LDS do is not the path God calls Christians to. Therefore we do not follow Joseph Smith.

John 10
24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.
 
Janice Bower said:
Mixing truth with hundreds of lies as LDS do is not the path God calls Christians to. Therefore we do not follow Joseph Smith.
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What do you consider "lies" about the posted scripture?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Janice Bower said:
John 10

24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30I and my Father are one.
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That won't help you either, as it has this format:

1) Sheep hear Him
2) They follow
3) They are given eternal life

I believe you claim one can't follow until AFTER they receive eternal life?
 
dberrie2020 said:
What do you consider "lies" about the posted scripture?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



That won't help you either, as it has this format:

1) Sheep hear Him
2) They follow
3) They are given eternal life

I believe you claim one can't follow until AFTER they receive eternal life?
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John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
 
Janice Bower said:
Here is proof that we are not our own workmanship:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Who has claimed otherwise? How are you relating that to obeying the commandments?

1 John 2:3-4---King James Version
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 
Magdalena said:
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.”
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John 3:16-21--King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

That connects belief and deeds as integral components to one another.
 
dberrie2020 said:
John 3:16-21--King James Version
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

That connects belief and deeds as integral components to one another.
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We’ve said all along that those who truly believe in Christ try to follow His example by the way they live. But we do it out of love and gratitude. Not to earn anything.

And there’s a huge difference between following what Christ said and obeying Mormon requirements for earning salvation and exaltation.
 
Magdalena said:
We’ve said all along that those who truly believe in Christ try to follow His example by the way they live.
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Again--that only connects belief and works, as integral components to one another.

Magdalena said:
But we do it out of love and gratitude. Not to earn anything.
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Regardless of why one claims they do it---it still connects belief and works as being integral. Why one does it is another factor.

Magdalena said:
And there’s a huge difference between following what Christ said and obeying Mormon requirements ....
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That claim has been made on a number of occasions here--and I have responded with the same request, IE--please list what is found in the Biblical NT--which isn't found in the LDS church--as far as salvational doctrines go?

So far--crickets.

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
 
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