What is the salvific effect of the Cross?

1Thess521 said:
Suffering caused by whom?
Suffering at the hands of....?
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The consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve was that suffering and death now entered into the created sphere; in other words--human beings are now subject to the limitations of human flesh as a result of their sin--and personal sins. This was because in sinning Adam and Eve lost their friendship with God--and all the benefits that went along with that friendship--freedom from the limitations of human flesh.

Through the Incarnation, God the Son took on human flesh--and brought God to human suffering and death--that is, God brought divine power to those things---and they now become redemptive.

In short, Jesus didn't suffer and die so we don't have to suffer and die, Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death is linked with the power of God.

Again, I know---what you are looking for me to do is throw up my hands and go "Gee, I don't know! I guess the Last Supper really is nothing more than a symbol" but that isn't going to happen. It does not matter how many questions you ask, or in how many different ways you ask the same question.

So---go ahead--keep asking questions! Keep asking the same question in different ways. My answer is not going to change.

A CIRCLE HAS NO BEGINNING!
 
romishpopishorganist said:
The consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve was that suffering and death now entered into the created sphere; in other words--human beings are now subject to the limitations of human flesh as a result of their sin--and personal sins. This was because in sinning Adam and Eve lost their friendship with God--and all the benefits that went along with that friendship--freedom from the limitations of human flesh.

Through the Incarnation, God the Son took on human flesh--and brought God to human suffering and death--that is, God brought divine power to those things---and they now become redemptive.

In short, Jesus didn't suffer and die so we don't have to suffer and die, Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death is linked with the power of God.
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you seem confused
Suffering caused by whom? A: God the Father
Suffering at the hands of....? A: God the Father

The believer is saved, not simply because of what men did to Christ on the Cross, but because of what God did to Him – He crushed Him under the full force of His wrath against us!
romishpopishorganist said:
And I thought Protestants knew the Scripture. I am rather surprised to see you ask a question like this.

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22. Read it. The Psalm begins "My God, my God why hast thou forsaken me."

But that cry also comes becasue Jesus is feeling the full effects of our sinful human condition. By assuming the consequences of our sin, namely suffering and death, Jesus is uttering the prayer of all of us--when we face suffering. Even a person of deepest Faith questions God when they face suffering and death. Suffering and death is enough to challenge the Faith of even the most ardent Christian.
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Others died a more more painful death than Christ:
Jesus was sweating blood and had to be comforted by an angel: in contrast to other believers who were burned at the stake while praising God and singing hymns.
Something else was going on.

"In the first centuries of the early church, thousands of Christians died on crosses.
It is said that Nero crucified them upside down, covered them with tar, and set them aflame to provide streetlights for the city of Rome. Throughout the ages since then, a countless stream of Christians have been led off to the most unspeakable tortures, and yet it is the testimony of friend and foe alike that many of them went to their death with great boldness even singing hymns.
Thousands of Christians crucified upside down, covered with tar, and set aflame and singing hymns!

Are we to believe that the followers of the Messiah met such cruel physical death with boldness and joy;
while the Messiah Himself, Captain of their Salvation , the King of Kings, the Lord of the Armies in heaven, cowered in a garden, fearing the same torture, sweating blood , and needed to be comforted by an angel?"

Did the Christ fear whips and thorns, crosses and spears, or was something else going on?

"It is sometimes thought and even preached that the Father looked down from heaven and witnessed the suffering that was heaped upon His Son by the hands of men, and that He counted such affliction as payment for our sins.

This is heresy of the worst kind. Christ satisfied divine justice not by merely enduring the affliction of men, but by enduring the wrath of God.
It takes more than crosses, nails, crowns of thorns, and lances to pay for sin."
-Paul Washer
Again
The believer is saved, not simply because of what men did to Christ on the Cross, but because of what God did to Him – He crushed Him under the full force of His wrath against us!
 
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romishpopishorganist said:
The consequences of the sin of Adam and Eve was that suffering and death now entered into the created sphere; in other words--human beings are now subject to the limitations of human flesh as a result of their sin--and personal sins. This was because in sinning Adam and Eve lost their friendship with God--and all the benefits that went along with that friendship--freedom from the limitations of human flesh.

Through the Incarnation, God the Son took on human flesh--and brought God to human suffering and death--that is, God brought divine power to those things---and they now become redemptive.

In short, Jesus didn't suffer and die so we don't have to suffer and die, Jesus suffered and died so that our suffering and death is linked with the power of God.

Again, I know---what you are looking for me to do is throw up my hands and go "Gee, I don't know! I guess the Last Supper really is nothing more than a symbol" but that isn't going to happen. It does not matter how many questions you ask, or in how many different ways you ask the same question.

So---go ahead--keep asking questions! Keep asking the same question in different ways. My answer is not going to change.

A CIRCLE HAS NO BEGINNING!
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Rubbish a circle has a beginning. If you draw a circle it has a starting point, the finish is back at the start.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Our redemption cannot be reduced to one event in the earthly life of Christ.
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BLASPHEMY!!!!!!

Jesus BLOOD SACRIFICE is the ONE EVENT that accomplishes redemption. it's the definitive SIN OFFERING toat takes the place of the temporary templeburnt offering process the REMOVED NOTHING - only covered it.

The Last supper" that's so central to Roman Catholic ceremonial tradition accomplished EXACTLY NOTHING. It was the ACTUAL CRUCIFIXION of Jesus that accomplished everything, and cleanses us from all SIN. as Luke points out, what Jesus did at John 20:22 (ministering the indwelling spirit) was what opened up the scriptures (Luke 24:45) for the disciples, so that FINALLY they could understand what God's purpose, and plan was all about.
 
1Thess521 said:
wow! "The Cross meant nothing without the Last Supper,"
God -Incarnate, the Lamb of God, offering Himself up as a substitutionary sacrifice on our behalf means nothing the Last Supper.

what disgraceful. heretical statements
"the Cross meant nothing without the Last Supper,"
and
"Yes, and his death was in effect at the last supper."
@dingoling.

To the Carm-posting Catholic: the Cross is meaningless (or secondary to the Last Supper)

"But it seems that Paul and the early Church itself put more emphasis on the Lords Supper than on the Cross in that case"
-@Stella1000

The Cross is were Jesus died: where proptiation was made: where the NC went into effect: and where sins were paid
WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED!!!
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In the Eucharist we proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

It is very sad that nCCs don't discern the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist and consider it symbolic.

How can the blood of covenant be symbolic?
 
dingoling. said:
In the Eucharist we proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

It is very sad that nCCs don't discern the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist and consider it symbolic.

How can the blood of covenant be symbolic?
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Q: why would you stop when He returns?

Hint: it is the verse right before what you referenced
"Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”


A: you stop when He returns BECAUSE you stop the "remembrance of me<Christ> .” when He is here..
It is a remembrance of Christ who is not physically with us

Thank you for that
 
dingoling. said:
In the Eucharist we proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes.

It is very sad that nCCs don't discern the body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist and consider it symbolic.

How can the blood of covenant be symbolic?
Click to expand...
It is not sad at all, it is great that non RCs stand up to the false teachings of the RCC and celebrate the communion as it is meant to be celebrated. It is symbolic, NOT one RC has answered any of the questions raised about their false teachings of it being literal. They just avoid the issue. NOT one RC can prove that Jesus told His disciples and His believers to break the commandment about consuming flesh and blood.

We have, however, seen a lot of flawed logic when trying to make Jesus' words at the last supper literal.

The actual blood of Jesus is not symbolic no one has never said it was. That is another false claim being posted. The wine as blood is symbolic.
 
1Thess521 said:
Q: why would you stop when He returns?

Hint: it is the verse right before what you referenced
"Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”


A: you stop when He returns BECAUSE you stop the "remembrance of me<Christ> .” when He is here..
It is a remembrance of Christ who is not physically with us

Thank you for that
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It is his body and blood; it is not symbolic.
 
1Thess521 said:
then please respond with a clear answer

Did Paul and the early Church itself put more emphasis on the Lords Supper than on the Cross ?
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Here is the original post where you quoted me...but failed to link to.

...............................................................................................................
1Thess521 said:
By moving propitiation, the new covenant going into effect, and sins being paid, from the Cross to the Last Supper you diminish the Cross.
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But it seems that Paul and the early Church itself put more emphasis on the Lords Supper than on the Cross in that case.

1 Corinthians 11 27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be answerable for the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Examine yourselves, and only then eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For all who eat and drink without discerning the body eat and drink judgment against themselves.

Why would such a memorial have lasted 2000 years if not for the fact of Christs sacrifice being it's very core?

..............................................................................................................

Over and over we have told you we understand and believe the Pascal sacrifice to be a 'package' (for want of a better word), just as recorded in the NT. And not just through Jesus words but through the Jewish seder which He had always observed His whole life.

Exodus 12... A lamb was to be sacrificed on the 10th of the month. On the night of the 14th of the month, it's blood was to be painted over the door posts and lintels of each house so Gods wrath would not be visited upon them. They were to consume the lamb on that same night and it would be a remembrance observed as a perpetual ordinance.

When Jesus took the bread and the cup and blessed them saying "Do this in remembrance of Me"... He was commanding a continuation of this remembrance in an unbloody way by virtue of Him being the Lamb sacrificed once and for all time, to be the perpetual ordinance.
 
Stella1000 said:
Why would such a memorial have lasted 2000 years if not for the fact of Christs sacrifice being it's very core?
Click to expand...
from the same paragraph
1 Corinthians 11:25
"Do this..in remembrance of me"
It has lasted 2000 years as a memorial service because of Who it is that we are remembering and what He did for us.
That's why
We are remembering what Christ did on the Cross: not what He did at the Last Supper.
That's why
We preach Christ crucified!
That's why
not Christ the wine pourer
That's why
 
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Bob Carabbio said:
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!

Jesus BLOOD SACRIFICE is the ONE EVENT that accomplishes redemption. it's the definitive SIN OFFERING toat takes the place of the temporary templeburnt offering process the REMOVED NOTHING - only covered it.
Click to expand...
Why, then, was anything else in the life of Christ necessary? I mean heck--he could have been killed as an infant if all he had to do was shed blood.
 
1Thess521 said:
you seem confused
Suffering caused by whom? A: God the Father
Suffering at the hands of....? A: God the Father

The believer is saved, not simply because of what men did to Christ on the Cross, but because of what God did to Him – He crushed Him under the full force of His wrath against us!

Others died a more more painful death than Christ:
Jesus was sweating blood and had to be comforted by an angel: in contrast to other believers who were burned at the stake while praising God and singing hymns.
Something else was going on.

"In the first centuries of the early church, thousands of Christians died on crosses.
It is said that Nero crucified them upside down, covered them with tar, and set them aflame to provide streetlights for the city of Rome. Throughout the ages since then, a countless stream of Christians have been led off to the most unspeakable tortures, and yet it is the testimony of friend and foe alike that many of them went to their death with great boldness even singing hymns.
Thousands of Christians crucified upside down, covered with tar, and set aflame and singing hymns!

Are we to believe that the followers of the Messiah met such cruel physical death with boldness and joy;
while the Messiah Himself, Captain of their Salvation , the King of Kings, the Lord of the Armies in heaven, cowered in a garden, fearing the same torture, sweating blood , and needed to be comforted by an angel?"

Did the Christ fear whips and thorns, crosses and spears, or was something else going on?

"It is sometimes thought and even preached that the Father looked down from heaven and witnessed the suffering that was heaped upon His Son by the hands of men, and that He counted such affliction as payment for our sins.

This is heresy of the worst kind. Christ satisfied divine justice not by merely enduring the affliction of men, but by enduring the wrath of God.
It takes more than crosses, nails, crowns of thorns, and lances to pay for sin."
-Paul Washer
Again
The believer is saved, not simply because of what men did to Christ on the Cross, but because of what God did to Him – He crushed Him under the full force of His wrath against us!
Click to expand...
Who said anything about cowering in fear in a garden?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Why, then, was anything else in the life of Christ necessary? I mean heck--he could have been killed as an infant if all he had to do was shed blood.
Click to expand...
Really then He would never have done the teaching and the prophecies would not have been fulfilled. He had to die as a sacrifice and people had to know He was the promised Messah. \ Really Rcs constantly show their lack of depth of understanding of the importance of the cross and what it means when trying, in desperation, to defend their false doctrines.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
AMEN!

Tell that to your Protestant cohorts. That was what I was attempting to explain. They insist on taking a non-linear "thing" (for lack of a better word) and making it linear. A circle has no beginning. Redemption is not linear. It may have components that are linear, but it cannot be reduced to events, days, and times--which seems to be what your cohorts on this site are attempting to do in their attempts to explain away the Last Supper as a symbol.

Our redemption cannot be reduced to one event in the earthly life of Christ. It is the entirety of the earthly life of Christ, and, in fact, WHO and WHAT CHrist IS that is redemptive. Christ did not start sacrificing himself and end sacrificing himself, Christ IS (present tense) THE sacrifice. Sacrifice is the essence of God the Son. In other words----when I say Christ IS the sacrifice, I am not describing what Christ did, I am naming Christ. It is what and who God the Son IS.

Think of it like this:

God attempts to translate who and what Christ IS in the eternity of heaven into our physical reality so we can see and understand it. In earthly, physical flesh, the life of Christ---especially as revealed on the Cross--is what the life of God the Son looks like when stripped of heavenly realities and projected into our reality. The Resurrection reveals what the sacrifice looks like when transformed and perfected with heavenly realities--when glorified and when stripped of earthly limitations. Christ is the eternal sacrifice. The resurrection allows God the Son to continuously offer Himself before the throne of the Father without the limitations of earthly flesh--that is---Christ no longer suffers and dies--but LIVES to make intercession before us. Christ is the LIVING sacrifice.
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Hebrews 10:12 ESV — But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Jesus is no longer providing sacrifices for us. He intercedes for us, but only ONE sacrifice!

Hebrews 10:12 ESV — But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,
 
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