Year for a day?

Greetings again Formersda,
Having been a pastors kid I have sat through more Daniel and revelation seminars than I care to remember.
I found your overall comments interesting. I attended a number of the evenings on Daniel, but on one occasion when many were away they handed out a Trinity module instead of the next chapter of Daniel. One of the prominent verses in this was John 10:30 and there was a murmur of consent . I stated that I believed that Jesus is the Son of God, not God or part of the Trinity. That was the last class I attended in the series. I did take up the Prophetic Code correspondence course and completed this, and still have the copies. They tried to correct me whenever I answered differently to the standard SDA teaching.
I therefore look forward to the Jews coming to Jesus and watch expectantly to events in Jerusalem.
I suggest that we may be soon entering the time of trouble, if it has not started already. My understanding of what will happen may be different to many. I believe that Jesus will literally return and convert a significant remnant of natural Israel, and the nations will be subjected. I look to Isaiah 2:1-4 as depicting the initial outcome.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

We must examine each prophecy in its context, and some have symbolic details, and some literal. There are many that take some of the 3 1/2 years as literal, and some of these expositors have been and are very popular in the USA and I am interacting with a forum member by private discussion at the moment who has been taught a particular line, but essentially ignores Daniel 7 and the view that the Little Horn of the 4th Beast is RCC which used to be popular among Protestants, especially early after the Reformation, but not today as you seem to suggest. He also equates the Little Horn of the Goat Daniel 8 as being the same Little Horn of Daniel 7, but they are different, the first is mainly religious and the second mainly military. Again your Christian majority put this Little Horn back in time past history and only talk about Antiochus Epiphanes. Are Daniel 7 and 8 spoken about in your Church environment?

As far as dates are concerned I have been very interested in the 2300 days, as I attended a home study class on Daniel 8 in 1966 and the expositor stated he considered great things were about to happen. I have pencil notes in my Bible margin mentioning the two main Battles of Issus and Granicus, BC 334-333, 331 and then adding 2300 to this he mentioned 1966-1969. Only some years after did I consider that the Six Day War fulfilled a major part of the 2300, a major step in restoring the position of Israel in the Holy Land. I also strongly link this with Luke 21:24, the treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles for a long period of time, not 2300 days. I suggest that Jesus was alluding to and quoting Daniel 8:13-14 and this is contrary to the teaching by the Churches and the SDAs and JWs. I prefer my smaller fellowship.

If you are a Baptist, I would be interested what view you hold on the return of Jesus and what he will do when he returns. A local Baptist Church advertised that a speaker was going to address this, and I attended, and there was very much singing, and then a red haired speaker spoke about if you don't repent the Devil will get you and you will be tortured in hell for ever. By the end his face matched the colour of his hair. Two old ladies came forward, and the lady two along from me said "Not her again". Possibly the speaker did not know about the Kingdom of God upon the earth, and especially he may not know about the various time periods that are given, but you ask why don't the churches know about these time periods. What is taught in your environment, and what is your view?

Kind regards
Trevor
The way that I read Daniel 8 is that it is about Medo-Persia and Greece. The great horn was Alexander the Great, the four that grew out of it were his four generals (Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus, and Ptolemy). The little horn that grew up out of one of the horns was Antiochus Epiphanes, and the 2300 days are the period from 171 BC to 165 BC when he persecuted Israel, including suspending the daily sacrifices in the temple and even going so far as to sacrifice a pig there (the abomination of desolation).

Rome is not mentioned in Daniel 8, but Medo-Persia and Greece specifically are. The horns of the goat mentioned in the chapter refer to specific rulers (Alexander, the four generals, and Antiochus Epiphanes). Rome was an empire, not a person. If it were mentioned in the chapter, it should have been represented by a beast, not a horn. And Rome did not arise from one of the four horns either. Not only that, but Adventism has that horn morphing from an empire to a church. It makes no sense.
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
The way that I read Daniel 8 is that it is about Medo-Persia and Greece. The great horn was Alexander the Great, the four that grew out of it were his four generals (Cassander, Lysimachus, Seleucus, and Ptolemy).
Yes, I agree with you here so far.
The little horn that grew up out of one of the horns was Antiochus Epiphanes, and the 2300 days are the period from 171 BC to 165 BC when he persecuted Israel, including suspending the daily sacrifices in the temple and even going so far as to sacrifice a pig there (the abomination of desolation).
Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled some of the detail in a typical way, but I consider that the little horn of the goat was the Roman power, especially as it developed in the East.
Rome was an empire, not a person. If it were mentioned in the chapter, it should have been represented by a beast, not a horn. And Rome did not arise from one of the four horns either.
The Eastern portion of the Roman Empire grew out of Pergamon. Attalos III of Pergamon bequeathed his kingdom to the Romans in BC 133. It became the Roman province of Asia in BC 129. By various means, Rome expanded from this in the East.
Daniel 8:9–12 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Antiochus was one of the four horns, not a separate small horn, and I have to check, but I have heard that he did not expand to the east, but Rome certainly did from its start in Pergamon. I consider that the prince of the host here is Jesus, and speaks of his crucifixion. The daily sacrifice was taken away and the Temple destroyed in AD 70. What damage did Antiochus do to the sanctuary apart from desecrating it?

I believe that Jesus alludes to the following in the Mount of Olives discourse
Daniel 8:13–14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Matthew 24:15–16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Not only that, but Adventism has that horn morphing from an empire to a church. It makes no sense.
I do not agree with the SDAs. I am a Christadelphian.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

Yes, I agree with you here so far.

Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled some of the detail in a typical way, but I consider that the little horn of the goat was the Roman power, especially as it developed in the East.

The Eastern portion of the Roman Empire grew out of Pergamon. Attalos III of Pergamon bequeathed his kingdom to the Romans in BC 133. It became the Roman province of Asia in BC 129. By various means, Rome expanded from this in the East.
Rome had been around for almost 400 years by 133 BC. It had already fought the 1st and 2nd Punic Wars. By 140 BC, it already had expanded to the north, into the southern part of Hispania, Carthage, and most of Greece. Pergamon allied itself with Rome to protect itself from the Macedonians and, later, the Seleucids. Rome did not arise out of Pergamon.
Daniel 8:9–12 (KJV): 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. 10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. 12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Antiochus was one of the four horns, not a separate small horn, and I have to check, but I have heard that he did not expand to the east, but Rome certainly did from its start in Pergamon. I consider that the prince of the host here is Jesus, and speaks of his crucifixion. The daily sacrifice was taken away and the Temple destroyed in AD 70. What damage did Antiochus do to the sanctuary apart from desecrating it?
What did Antiochus IV Epiphanes do? He tried to stamp out Judaism. From the Jewish Encyclopedia:

As long as he was occupied with preparations for his expedition against Egypt, Antiochus had no time for Palestine; but when the Romans compelled him to forego his plans of conquest, his rage at the unexpected impediment was wreaked upon the innocent Jews. An officer, Apollonius, was sent through the country with an armed troop, commissioned to slay and destroy. He first entered Jerusalem amicably; then suddenly turning upon the defenseless city, he murdered, plundered, and burnt through its length and breadth. The men were butchered, women and children sold into slavery, and in order to give permanence to the work of desolation, the walls and numerous houses were torn down. The old City of David was fortified anew by the Syrians, and made into a very strong fortress completely dominating the city. Having thus made Jerusalem a Greek colony, the king's attention was next turned to the destruction of the national religion. A royal decree proclaimed the abolition of the Jewish mode of worship; Sabbaths and festivals were not to be observed; circumcision was not to be performed; the sacred books were to be surrendered and the Jews were compelled to offer sacrifices to the idols that had been erected. The officers charged with carrying out these commands did so with great rigor; a veritable inquisition was established with monthly sessions for investigation. The possession of a sacred book or the performance of the rite of circumcision was punished with death. On Kislew (Nov.-Dec.) 25, 168, the "abomination of desolation" (
V01p635001.jpg
, Dan. xi. 31, xii. 11) was set up on the altar of burnt offering in the Temple, and the Jews required to make obeisance to it. This was probably the Olympian Zeus, or Baal Shamem.See Abomination of Desolation.
I believe that Jesus alludes to the following in the Mount of Olives discourse
Daniel 8:13–14 (KJV): 13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? 14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
What do you believe was the event that marked the conclusion of the 2300 days? What do you believe to be it's starting date?
Matthew 24:15–16 (KJV): 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand. ) 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Luke 21:20–24 (KJV): 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.


I do not agree with the SDAs. I am a Christadelphian.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Rome had been around for almost 400 years by 133 BC. It had already fought the 1st and 2nd Punic Wars. By 140 BC, it already had expanded to the north, into the southern part of Hispania, Carthage, and most of Greece. Pergamon allied itself with Rome to protect itself from the Macedonians and, later, the Seleucids. Rome did not arise out of Pergamon.
As I stated the Roman power used Pergamon as its base to gradually expand in the East. The Roman power did not use a major force or invasion to conquer the east from Rome itself, but used a gradual process. Thus this eastern little horn arose out of one of the four Grecian horns.
What do you believe was the event that marked the conclusion of the 2300 days? What do you believe to be it's starting date?
The Six-Day War was the conclusion of the 2300 years of treading down by the Gentiles. The starting date was when Alexander depicted by the Goat, made its major thrust against Persia depicted by the Ram in BC 334-333, at the Battle of Issus. This victory and the follow-up battles is the major focus and activity of the vision.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

As I stated the Roman power used Pergamon as its base to gradually expand in the East. The Roman power did not use a major force or invasion to conquer the east from Rome itself, but used a gradual process. Thus this eastern little horn arose out of one of the four Grecian horns.
No. Rome had already acquired the Greek Peninsula with it's defeat of Corinth and the Acheaen League in 144 BC. Macedon became a Roman province at this time. Rome had already existed for almost 400 years. It did not arise from one of the four Grecian horns. It acquired most of Greece through military conquest. This is like claiming that Rome rose out of the southern horn because the Ptolemaic Kingdom had allied itself heavily with Rome in order to protect itself from the Macedonians and the Seleucids. Rome is not the little horn in Daniel 8.
The Six-Day War was the conclusion of the 2300 years of treading down by the Gentiles. The starting date was when Alexander depicted by the Goat, made its major thrust against Persia depicted by the Ram in BC 334-333, at the Battle of Issus. This victory and the follow-up battles is the major focus and activity of the vision.

Kind regards
Trevor
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed. Daniel 8:14 KJV

Please explain how the sanctuary was cleansed or restored in 1967. The Temple has not been rebuilt, no services have been performed, and the Temple Mount remains under control of the Muslims to this day.
 
Last edited:
Greetings again Common Tater,
No. Rome had already acquired the Greek Peninsula with it's defeat of Corinth and the Acheaen League in 144 BC. Macedon became a Roman province at this time.
I am not familiar with all of the Roman history, but the above was further west than Pergamon.
Rome had already existed for almost 400 years. It did not arise from one of the four Grecian horns. ... Rome is not the little horn in Daniel 8.
I am not saying that Rome arose out of Pergamon, but that Pergamon was the area from which the Roman power arose in this area and from this gradually expanded, towards the East and towards the South. This is the growth of a military power out of one of the four Grecian regions.
Please explain how the sanctuary was cleansed or restored in 1967. The Temple has not been rebuilt, no services have been performed, and the Temple Mount remains under control of the Muslims to this day.
Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed and the children of Israel were scattered or taken captive in AD 70. After this there was a long period of down treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The term "trodden down" is a military term, and the Six Day War reversed this military effect, the captivity of Jerusalem was overcome:
Joel 3:1 (KJV): For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
The captivity of Judah speaks about 1948 and Jerusalem 1967. These were major steps, major milestones towards the ultimate cleansing of Jerusalem when Jesus returns and sits upon the Temple / Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

I am not familiar with all of the Roman history, but the above was further west than Pergamon.

I am not saying that Rome arose out of Pergamon, but that Pergamon was the area from which the Roman power arose in this area and from this gradually expanded, towards the East and towards the South. This is the growth of a military power out of one of the four Grecian regions.
No. Egypt was already heavily dependent upon Rome by 133 BC. In 168 BC, Antiochus Epiphanes IV attempted to conquer Egypt. Before he got to Alexandria, he was met by Roman envoy Gaius Popillus Laenas who told him to withdraw or consider himself at war with Rome. A humiliated Antiochus left with his tail between his legs. 168 BC is earlier than 133 BC.

Lets look at Daniel 8:9:
Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. Daniel 8:9 ESV

Your argument about Pergoman being further east is rather a red herring. All it says is toward the east, and last I checked a map, the Greek Peninsula is east of Rome. By the way, Rome also grew to the west and to the north and there is no mention of this as regards the little horn in Daniel 8.

Jerusalem and its Temple were destroyed and the children of Israel were scattered or taken captive in AD 70. After this there was a long period of down treading of Jerusalem by the Gentiles.
Luke 21:24 (KJV): And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
The term "trodden down" is a military term, and the Six Day War reversed this military effect, the captivity of Jerusalem was overcome:
Joel 3:1 (KJV): For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
The captivity of Judah speaks about 1948 and Jerusalem 1967. These were major steps, major milestones towards the ultimate cleansing of Jerusalem when Jesus returns and sits upon the Temple / Throne of David in Jerusalem Isaiah 2:1-4.

Kind regards
Trevor
Please address the verse that I mentioned.

And he said to me, “For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state.”
Daniel 8:14 ESV

"Trodden down" may be a military term and it may be mentione in Luke 21 and Joel 3, but I am asking about Daniel 8:14. It says that the Sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state. Nothing of the sort happened in 1967. The verse does not say that major steps will occur towards the ultimate cleansing of Jerusalem at the end of 2300 days, it says that at the end of 2300 days the sanctuary will be restored. There is no Temple on the Temple Mount, no services have been renewed, and, as I said, the Muslims remain in control of the Mount The Dome of the Rock occupies the space where the Temple stood. The Dome of the Rock ain't the Temple.
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Lets look at Daniel 8:9:
Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. Daniel 8:9 ESV
Your argument about Pergoman being further east is rather a red herring. All it says is toward the east, and last I checked a map, the Greek Peninsula is east of Rome. By the way, Rome also grew to the west and to the north and there is no mention of this as regards the little horn in Daniel 8.
I was suggesting that the Roman events concerning Corinth were to the west of Pergamon. From the position or territory of Pergamon the Romans gradually expanded to the east, to the south, to the Holy Land. Perhaps I could find a historical reference to this if required.
"Trodden down" may be a military term and it may be mentione in Luke 21 and Joel 3, but I am asking about Daniel 8:14. It says that the Sanctuary will be restored to its rightful state.
I believe that the 2300 has a number of starting and finishing dates, and the one that corresponds strongly with the most prominent aspect of the vision, the slaying of the Ram by the Goat is 1967. The suddenness, ferocity and the persistence of the Goat remarkably is reflected by the Six Day war, and even the initial attack and success by the Israeli Air Force on Egypt and the tanks in Sinai, leaving the unexpected opportunity for a Sinai Battalion to be redirected to recapture Jerusalem and then the West Bank. I have a personal understanding of a very real fulfilment of the "Failed" or "Great Disappointment" of William Miller's 1843 date, and this view is not the SDA "happening in heaven". I also anticipate when the Temple is restored that this may correspond with some Grecian event in Jerusalem, possibly a religious subjugation. God is very patient, but can move swiftly when required. The Jeremiah 70 years had two starting dates and two fulfilments. 1967 is a great milestone marking the outworking of God's purpose in the M.E.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

I was suggesting that the Roman events concerning Corinth were to the west of Pergamon. From the position or territory of Pergamon the Romans gradually expanded to the east, to the south, to the Holy Land. Perhaps I could find a historical reference to this if required.
Here's a historical reference of interest. In 200 BC, Pergamum appealed to Rome for help in protecting itself from the Macedonians and the Seleucids. Rome sent an army east and ultimately defeated Antiochus III at the Battle of Magnesia in 189 BC. This resulted in the Treaty of Apamea, where Antiochus had to pay a huge tribute to Rome, as well as give up all of his holdings in Europe and Asia Minor west of the Taurus Mountains. Rome gave the land west of the Taurus Mountains to Pergamon. Look it up. Look at the size of the Kingdom of Pergamon around 200 BC compared to after the Treaty. Pergamon wasn't much more than a vassal state of Rome's at that point. Rome did not arise out of a Grecian horn. Rome is not the little horn of Daniel 8.
I believe that the 2300 has a number of starting and finishing dates, and the one that corresponds strongly with the most prominent aspect of the vision, the slaying of the Ram by the Goat is 1967. The suddenness, ferocity and the persistence of the Goat remarkably is reflected by the Six Day war, and even the initial attack and success by the Israeli Air Force on Egypt and the tanks in Sinai, leaving the unexpected opportunity for a Sinai Battalion to be redirected to recapture Jerusalem and then the West Bank. I have a personal understanding of a very real fulfilment of the "Failed" or "Great Disappointment" of William Miller's 1843 date, and this view is not the SDA "happening in heaven". I also anticipate when the Temple is restored that this may correspond with some Grecian event in Jerusalem, possibly a religious subjugation. God is very patient, but can move swiftly when required. The Jeremiah 70 years had two starting dates and two fulfilments. 1967 is a great milestone marking the outworking of God's purpose in the M.E.

Kind regards
Trevor
Israel is not the Goat. Daniel 8 identifies the Ram and the Goat in no uncertain terms.

“The ram which you saw with the two horns represents the kings of Media and Persia. Daniel 8:20 NASB
“The shaggy goat represents the kingdom of Greece, and the large horn that is between his eyes is the first king. “The broken horn and the four horns that arose in its place represent four kingdoms which will arise from his nation, although not with his power. Daniel 8:21-22 NASB

The Ram and the Goat were not involved in 1967. Medo-Persia ceased to exist as an empire around 331 BC when it was conquered by Alexander the Great (the large horn between the eyes of the shaggy goat). The Six Day War was between Israel and Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, and Syria. Modern day Persia, that is, Iran, was not even involved.
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Rome did not arise out of a Grecian horn. Rome is not the little horn of Daniel 8.
I have not sorted out all that the following writer states, but I will extract sufficient to show that this expositor considers that the concept of the little horn of Roman power in the east arises out of the Grecian horn:
Robert Wodrow in the book The Past History and Future Destiny of Israel: as Unfolded in Daniel 8 and Succeeding Chapters, 1844
Page 39: In this exceedingly gradual manner did the Roman power, first known in that part of the world, in 225 B. C., insinuate itself, almost insensibly, into the affairs of Macedon and Greece; and coming to be regarded as a party in every transaction, whether of war or peace, assuming to itself the character of arbiter of differences, sometimes defending the weak against the strong, and at others, sowing discord among those who were united together —appearing, for the most part, under the specious, guise of the friend of liberty, yet in reality carrying on, all along, either by force or fraud, its own ambitious designs—did this power at length openly grasp the sovereignty of these countries, which for many years it had held in virtual possession, and first in Macedon, next in Greece (lying to the south), erect the insignia of republican dominion.
The little horn having made its appearance as a dominant power, waxed great towards the south. Before following its course of aggrandizement, which was next toward the East, I would make another quotation still from Ferguson, confirmatory of the view's which have been given of Roman policy. “ The enmity and the friendship of the Romans being equally fatal, these (namely, Achaia and Sparta), and every other state or republic of Greece, from this time forth ceased to be numbered among nations, having fallen a prey to a power, whose force nothing could equal but the ability and the cunning with which it was exerted.

Page 41: The ensigns of republican supremacy having, as we have seen, been erected first in Macedon, the primitive or fundamental kingdom of the preceding empire, then in Achaia, lying to the south, were next unfurled in Asia Minor. The little horn waxed great toward the East. Attalus, king of Pergamus, having died in 133 B. C., the Roman people, by his will, were constituted his heirs. A son of one of the former kings disputed the succession, and a war ensued, in which the Romans were successful. In consequence of this, “Lydia, Caria, the Hellespont, Phrygia, in a word, all that composed the kingdom of Attains, was reduced into a province of the Roman empire, under the common name of Asia.” This, then, was the first step in the increase of Roman power eastward.
Israel is not the Goat. Daniel 8 identifies the Ram and the Goat in no uncertain terms.
The Ram and the Goat were not involved in 1967.
I never claimed that Israel was the Goat, as this was the Greeks. I suggested that the military down treading of Jerusalem by the Greco-Roman powers was reversed in AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

I have not sorted out all that the following writer states, but I will extract sufficient to show that this expositor considers that the concept of the little horn of Roman power in the east arises out of the Grecian horn:
Robert Wodrow in the book The Past History and Future Destiny of Israel: as Unfolded in Daniel 8 and Succeeding Chapters, 1844
Page 39: In this exceedingly gradual manner did the Roman power, first known in that part of the world, in 225 B. C., insinuate itself, almost insensibly, into the affairs of Macedon and Greece; and coming to be regarded as a party in every transaction, whether of war or peace, assuming to itself the character of arbiter of differences, sometimes defending the weak against the strong, and at others, sowing discord among those who were united together —appearing, for the most part, under the specious, guise of the friend of liberty, yet in reality carrying on, all along, either by force or fraud, its own ambitious designs—did this power at length openly grasp the sovereignty of these countries, which for many years it had held in virtual possession, and first in Macedon, next in Greece (lying to the south), erect the insignia of republican dominion.
The little horn having made its appearance as a dominant power, waxed great towards the south. Before following its course of aggrandizement, which was next toward the East, I would make another quotation still from Ferguson, confirmatory of the view's which have been given of Roman policy. “ The enmity and the friendship of the Romans being equally fatal, these (namely, Achaia and Sparta), and every other state or republic of Greece, from this time forth ceased to be numbered among nations, having fallen a prey to a power, whose force nothing could equal but the ability and the cunning with which it was exerted.

Page 41: The ensigns of republican supremacy having, as we have seen, been erected first in Macedon, the primitive or fundamental kingdom of the preceding empire, then in Achaia, lying to the south, were next unfurled in Asia Minor. The little horn waxed great toward the East. Attalus, king of Pergamus, having died in 133 B. C., the Roman people, by his will, were constituted his heirs. A son of one of the former kings disputed the succession, and a war ensued, in which the Romans were successful. In consequence of this, “Lydia, Caria, the Hellespont, Phrygia, in a word, all that composed the kingdom of Attains, was reduced into a province of the Roman empire, under the common name of Asia.” This, then, was the first step in the increase of Roman power eastward.

I never claimed that Israel was the Goat, as this was the Greeks. I suggested that the military down treading of Jerusalem by the Greco-Roman powers was reversed in AD 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor
Attalus was willing back to Rome a big chunk of land it had already given them in 189 BC, thanks to the Treaty of Apamea. 133 BC was not the first step in Roman power eastward.

Here is another problem. Calling that little horn Rome and then having it morph into Roman Catholicism makes no sense if the Adventist approach to interpreting Daniel 7 is used. The little horn, which supposedly represents the Papacy, arises out of the great beast in Daniel 7. For that matter, how can Rome be the little horn in Daniel 8 when it is represented by a beast even more powerful than the three that represent Babylon, Medo-Persia and Greece in Daniel 7? If you believe that the little horn in chapter 8 simply represents Rome and not the RCC as well, then you have to account for the fact that the last vestige of the Roman Empire (the eastern half) came to an end around 1453 AD, 514 years before the Six Day War. And you still have the fundamental problem that the sanctuary was not restored in 1967.

I am sorry, but your history and the Bible simply are not matching up to each other.
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Here is another problem. Calling that little horn Rome and then having it morph into Roman Catholicism makes no sense if the Adventist approach to interpreting Daniel 7 is used. The little horn, which supposedly represents the Papacy, arises out of the great beast in Daniel 7.
I am not a SDA. I consider that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy, and is associated with the Roman Empire in the West and is mainly a religious power, except for when they possessed the Papal States. I consider that the little horn of Daniel 8 is the Roman Empire in the East and is mainly a military power, "treading down". I anticipate that Russia will assume this role at the time of the end Daniel 11:40-45, Ezekiel 38:1-2.
If you believe that the little horn in chapter 8 simply represents Rome and not the RCC as well, then you have to account for the fact that the last vestige of the Roman Empire (the eastern half) came to an end around 1453 AD, 514 years before the Six Day War.
I consider that Russia will resume this role Daniel 11:40-45 again.
And you still have the fundamental problem that the sanctuary was not restored in 1967.
I have given my view on this, no problem. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the Sanctuary restored. 1967 was the reversal of the military treading down, a part fulfillment of Luke 21:24.
I am sorry, but your history and the Bible simply are not matching up to each other.
I have not fully assessed your view as yet, but I am happy with what I have presented.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

I am not a SDA. I consider that the little horn of Daniel 7 is the Papacy, and is associated with the Roman Empire in the West and is mainly a religious power, except for when they possessed the Papal States. I consider that the little horn of Daniel 8 is the Roman Empire in the East and is mainly a military power, "treading down". I anticipate that Russia will assume this role at the time of the end Daniel 11:40-45, Ezekiel 38:1-2.
Again, Rome did not arise in the east. The Republic came into existence around 500 BC and had already begun its conquest of Greek territory long before 133 BC. Pergamum's territory was greatly increased with the Seleucid lands west of the Taurus Mountains that Rome gave it after the Treaty of Apamea in 189 BC. Rome did not arise from Pergamum, its expansion into the east began before 133 AD, it is not the little horn in Daniel 8.
I consider that Russia will resume this role Daniel 11:40-45 again.
Russia had nothing to do with the Six Day War in 1967.
I have given my view on this, no problem. Isaiah 2:1-4 speaks of the Sanctuary restored. 1967 was the reversal of the military treading down, a part fulfillment of Luke 21:24.

I have not fully assessed your view as yet, but I am happy with what I have presented.

Kind regards
Trevor
Again, we are talking about Daniel 8:14, not Isaiah 2:1-4 or Luke 21:24. The prophecy in Daniel 8 says that at the end of the 2300 days, the sanctuary is restored. I don't hold with a year-day principle, but if you believe that the 2300 days in Daniel 8 is actually 2300 years, then you are stuck with the fulfillment of the conditions stated in verse 14, and that is that the sanctuary will be restored at the end of the 2300 years. This did not happen in 1967.

Isaiah 2 speaks of the Sanctuary restored. No mention of when. No mention of 2300 days or years. I have no problem with that as i believe that the 2300 days ended in 165 BC and it was the Second Temple that was rededicated by the Maccabees. If you want to see Isaiah 2 as referring to the Third Temple, it was not restored in 1967.

If you want to look at Luke 21, there is no mention of a sanctuary restored, only the destruction of Jerusalem. I'd suggest that a better fulfillment of Luke 21 is just prior to 70 AD, when the Christians in Jerusalem recognized that Jerusalem was being surrounded by armies, just as predicted in chapter 21, and it was time to bust a move and get out of Dodge, and so they up and fled to Pella.

If you are talking about "trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", then explain why and how the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled. Revelation 11:2 seems to indicate that the times of the Gentiles isn't fulfilled until Christ's return.
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Again, Rome did not arise in the east. ..... Rome did not arise from Pergamum, its expansion into the east began before 133 AD, it is not the little horn in Daniel 8.
I never said it did. I have been talking about the growth and influence of Rome in the east. When the Greeks took over from the Persians, there was an invasion by Alexander the Great and his army, and the vision of Daniel 8 symbolises this by the Goat's severe fight and slaying of the Ram. When Rome was destined to replace the Greeks, I am not aware of any such substantial invasion, or a decisive conquest and replacement of the Grecian power. Now I do not know exactly how Rome ended up in the ascendancy in Asia Minor (modern Turkey), but there was a gradual growth and possibly the Pergamus incident was only one of the many steps toward this result. Now you may complain that this is some sort of reverse engineering, but I am satisfied that it fits the concept that the Roman Power in the East was a gradual process, and could be described as a growth from within an area, a little horn that grows from within one of the four Goat territories. This view also satisfies the view that the Little Horn is the power that crucifies Jesus and destroys Jerusalem in AD 70 Daniel 8:11-12, Daniel 9:24-27.

Now I have quoted briefly from a book where he uses the history of the times in support of his view that the little horn is the Roman power in the East. I find the date when the article was written is significant, authored in 1844, as it around the time of William Miller's prediction concerning 1843, then deferred to 1844. One SDA book describes the three groups that were to some extent united in the 1843 belief, those that believed in the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, others that agreed with this but also considered natural Israel would be converted and form the first dominion, and William Miller himself and those similar to the SDAs today, that the earth will be burnt and desolate for the 1000 years.
Russia had nothing to do with the Six Day War in 1967.
I consider that Russia will fulfill the role of the King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 and I consider this is parallel with the latter day Little Horn of the Goat and the events of Daniel 8:25. This is all part of the overall picture, and part of the Continuous Historical view of prophecy.
Again, we are talking about Daniel 8:14, not Isaiah 2:1-4 or Luke 21:24.
I suggest that Jesus in Luke 21:24 quotes and alludes to Daniel 8:13-14 and thus this reference is VERY significant. Isaiah 2:1-4 indicates that at a future date the process of cleansing the literal sanctuary will be complete as Jesus will be in occupation of the Temple, sitting upon the Temple Throne of David Isaiah 6:1, Jeremiah 3:17.
The prophecy in Daniel 8 says that at the end of the 2300 days, the sanctuary is restored. I don't hold with a year-day principle, but if you believe that the 2300 days in Daniel 8 is actually 2300 years, then you are stuck with the fulfillment of the conditions stated in verse 14, and that is that the sanctuary will be restored at the end of the 2300 years. This did not happen in 1967.
The reversal of the military situation was accomplished in 1967, and since then events have been slowly progressing. We need to be patient, not dismissive.
Isaiah 2 speaks of the Sanctuary restored. No mention of when. No mention of 2300 days or years. I have no problem with that
Good, we can tentatively agree here.
If you want to look at Luke 21, there is no mention of a sanctuary restored, only the destruction of Jerusalem. I'd suggest that a better fulfillment of Luke 21 is just prior to 70 AD, when the Christians in Jerusalem recognized that Jerusalem was being surrounded by armies, just as predicted in chapter 21, and it was time to bust a move and get out of Dodge, and so they up and fled to Pella.
Luke 21:24 speaks about a long period of time while Jerusalem would be trodden down. The end of this "until" indicates that Jerusalem would no longer be trodden down, indicating a reversal and this happened in part in 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem. The Temple that was destroyed in AD 70 has not been rebuilt yet. I believe that the plans are given in Ezekiel 40-48.
If you are talking about "trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", then explain why and how the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.
I consider the Times of the Gentiles is a period of time from Nebuchadnezzar's conquest until the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God and the subjugation of the nations. I consider that BC 334-333 to AD 1967 are significant milestones.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
If you are talking about "trampled underfoot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled", then explain why and how the times of the Gentiles has been fulfilled.
I consider the Times of the Gentiles is a period of time from Nebuchadnezzar's conquest until the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God and the subjugation of the nations. I consider that BC 334-333 to AD 1967 are significant milestones.
Another aspect regarding these milestones. The main vision or detail of Daniel 8 is the slaying of the Ram by the Goat, and it then details what would happen after this, as a result of this change of government from the Persians to the Greeks and their subsequent subdivision into four territories and the rise of the Little Horn of the Goat. We could ask why BC 334-333 is the starting point of the 2300 years. First it is the first significant battle, and this is the first severe, sudden, ferocious thrust by the Goat against the Ram as detailed in the vision.

Another feature is that the time period speaks about the treading down of the sanctuary. The important difference between the Persians and the Greeks and the Romans who took over from the Greeks is that at one time or another the Greeks and the Romans were against the worship of the Temple, they were instrumental in treading down the Sanctuary, and this was a change from the Persians who supported the Jews in their Temple worship, having encouraged the return of the Jews and the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, commencing with Cyrus and his Decree. So the change of jurisdiction from the Persians to the Greeks, marked at either end by the military milestones of BC 334-333 to AD 1967 is a significant fulfilment of the 2300 years.

Also another minor detail, after 1948 the Jews were not allowed access to the Western Wall and the Temple Mount, but this was reversed in 1967, giving more emphasis to the reversal in 1967.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,

I never said it did. I have been talking about the growth and influence of Rome in the east. When the Greeks took over from the Persians, there was an invasion by Alexander the Great and his army, and the vision of Daniel 8 symbolises this by the Goat's severe fight and slaying of the Ram. When Rome was destined to replace the Greeks, I am not aware of any such substantial invasion, or a decisive conquest and replacement of the Grecian power. Now I do not know exactly how Rome ended up in the ascendancy in Asia Minor (modern Turkey), but there was a gradual growth and possibly the Pergamus incident was only one of the many steps toward this result. Now you may complain that this is some sort of reverse engineering, but I am satisfied that it fits the concept that the Roman Power in the East was a gradual process, and could be described as a growth from within an area, a little horn that grows from within one of the four Goat territories. This view also satisfies the view that the Little Horn is the power that crucifies Jesus and destroys Jerusalem in AD 70 Daniel 8:11-12, Daniel 9:24-27.
229BC 1st Illyrian War
219BC 2nd Illyrian War
214-205BC 1st Macedonian War
200-196BC 2nd Macedonian War
192-188BC Seleucid War
172-168BC 3rd Macedonian War
168 BC 3rd Illyrian War
150-148BC 4th Macedonian War
146BC Aechean War

Rome did not peacefully grow out of a grecian horn. It gained territory at the point of a sword. It already held a substantial amount of territory prior to 133BC. It did not grow out of Pergamon.

Daniel 8:11-12 is not about the crucifixion of Jesus or the destruction of Jerusalem. It is about Antiochus IV trying to stamp out Judaism.
Now I have quoted briefly from a book where he uses the history of the times in support of his view that the little horn is the Roman power in the East. I find the date when the article was written is significant, authored in 1844, as it around the time of William Miller's prediction concerning 1843, then deferred to 1844. One SDA book describes the three groups that were to some extent united in the 1843 belief, those that believed in the establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth, others that agreed with this but also considered natural Israel would be converted and form the first dominion, and William Miller himself and those similar to the SDAs today, that the earth will be burnt and desolate for the 1000 years.
The man is simply wrong.
I consider that Russia will fulfill the role of the King of the North in Daniel 11:40-45 and I consider this is parallel with the latter day Little Horn of the Goat and the events of Daniel 8:25. This is all part of the overall picture, and part of the Continuous Historical view of prophecy.

I suggest that Jesus in Luke 21:24 quotes and alludes to Daniel 8:13-14 and thus this reference is VERY significant. Isaiah 2:1-4 indicates that at a future date the process of cleansing the literal sanctuary will be complete as Jesus will be in occupation of the Temple, sitting upon the Temple Throne of David Isaiah 6:1, Jeremiah 3:17.
It is I who says of Cyrus, ‘He is My shepherd!
And he will perform all My desire.’
And he declares of Jerusalem, ‘She will be built,’
And of the temple, ‘Your foundation will be laid.’”

Isaiah 44:28 NASB

I would suggest that if you take Isaiah in its entirety, you will find that he is talking about building the 2nd Temple.
The reversal of the military situation was accomplished in 1967, and since then events have been slowly progressing. We need to be patient, not dismissive.
That is not what Daniel 8:14 says would happen at the end of the 2300 days. He said that the fulfillment of the prophecy would be the restoration of the sanctuary.
Good, we can tentatively agree here.

Luke 21:24 speaks about a long period of time while Jerusalem would be trodden down. The end of this "until" indicates that Jerusalem would no longer be trodden down, indicating a reversal and this happened in part in 1967 when the Jews regained Jerusalem. The Temple that was destroyed in AD 70 has not been rebuilt yet. I believe that the plans are given in Ezekiel 40-48.

I consider the Times of the Gentiles is a period of time from Nebuchadnezzar's conquest until the return of Jesus and the establishment of the Kingdom of God and the subjugation of the nations. I consider that BC 334-333 to AD 1967 are significant milestones.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Greetings again Common Tater,
Rome did not peacefully grow out of a grecian horn. It gained territory at the point of a sword. It already held a substantial amount of territory prior to 133BC. It did not grow out of Pergamon.
How many of the items on your list refer to other areas of the Grecian Empire, closer to Rome? I understand that the growth of the little horn is out of the territory of Asia Minor (now Turkey) and it is also in line with the role of the King of the North of Daniel 11:40-45. It is talking about the Roman Empire in its eastern military function, and Daniel 8 is military and distinct from Daniel 7 which is western and religious. There has also been a separation between the RCC and the Orthodox Church in the east. When Russia assumes the role of the King of the North there will be a restoration of this religious position of the Orthodox Church, but they will also unite with the Papacy when they plan the Battle of Armageddon Revelation 16:12-16.
Daniel 8:11-12 is not about the crucifixion of Jesus or the destruction of Jerusalem. It is about Antiochus IV trying to stamp out Judaism.
I suggest that the events of Antiochus were only a shadow of what was to happen with the crucifixion of Jesus and the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple in AD 70. There was to be a long period of treading down, a figure of antagonistic military dominance, and this started at the defeat of the Persians who had been supportive of the return of the Jews and the endorsement of the rebuilding of the Temple. In the prophecy concerning the Babylon tree, it was cut down and then bound with iron and brass, the metals of Rome and Greece. These two Empires continued the practice of Babylon in their opposition to Judea and the Temple, while Persia was supportive.
That is not what Daniel 8:14 says would happen at the end of the 2300 days. He said that the fulfillment of the prophecy would be the restoration of the sanctuary.
There would firstly be the cessation of the military dominance of Jerusalem by the Gentiles Luke 21:24 the "until", and this was accomplished in part in AD 1967. In the period of 1948-1967 the Jordanians expelled the Jews from the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem and destroyed the Synagogues which had been there for many years, and denied the Jews access to the Western Wall. So to some extent the events of 1967 did see the start of some reversal on the religious front.

I also found very interesting the two ILTV interviews with two of the three army people who are often pictured soon after the recapture of Jerusalem. They relate how that their division had been only lightly engaged in Sinai and had not lost very many and were thus in a good condition. They were directed to lead the attack on Jerusalem, which they accomplished with the loss of some of their members. After finding their way to the Western Wall, they heard that a Rabbi was bringing a shofar, and when he arrived he was too excited to blow the shofar. The Captain of the Battalion stated that he was a Trumpet player in his personal life, and he blew the trumpet. This was a cessation of military activity, not a religious event. After a while the Rabbi settled down and blew the shofar, and we have a picture of that, and that would have been a call to worship at the Western Wall. I was reminded of this yesterday, when the authorities moved on a shofar player who sounded at the Eastern Wall of Jerusalem where Jesus and the faithful will enter Jerusalem and the restored temple.

Kind regards
Trevor
 
Sdas believe that in the millennium we will be in heaven, that the SDAS will be looking at all the records of people and either agreeing with or disagreeing with God. The job of the sda is to vindicate God and the only way to do that is to keep the 10c’s but most importantly the 4th one. It’s the sabbath that will save you ultimately not Jesus.


In Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus says:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.​
According to Formersda "theology" this means that it's constraining lust in your heart that will ultimately save you, not Jesus.

According to Formersda "theology" this means that it's constraining the wrong actions of your hand that will ultimately save you, not Jesus.

The problem with virtually all of the critics of Adventism is that they hyperfocus their criticisms without stepping back and considering the broader impact of their self-imposed microcosm of condemnation. If they took a moment they'd see that their myopic sweeping denunciations of Adventism also sweeps away the very thing they supposedly wish to defend. Jesus can't even pass muster of their finite and fallible manufactured "tests."

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Step into the light. :)
 
In Matthew 5:28-30 Jesus says:

But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.​
According to Formersda "theology" this means that it's constraining lust in your heart that will ultimately save you, not Jesus.

According to Formersda "theology" this means that it's constraining the wrong actions of your hand that will ultimately save you, not Jesus.

The problem with virtually all of the critics of Adventism is that they hyperfocus their criticisms without stepping back and considering the broader impact of their self-imposed microcosm of condemnation. If they took a moment they'd see that their myopic sweeping denunciations of Adventism also sweeps away the very thing they supposedly wish to defend. Jesus can't even pass muster of their finite and fallible manufactured "tests."

Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

Step into the light. :)

Personally, as an ex-SDA I have never heard Formersda's claim of what an Adventist believes. I don't believe SDA's believe that, do they? But if they do, by what scripture text?

This, in particular:
Sdas believe that in the millennium we will be in heaven, that the SDAS will be looking at all the records of people and either agreeing with or disagreeing with God.
 
Back
Top