Titus 3:5 exposes the anomalous dilemma of Calvinism.

As a man thinketh, so he is. We can change the course of our lives.

Um, that's not what that text means.
Look at how you act. I mean, really look.

It probably hurt your feelings that I pointed out you react just like Jesus stated in Matthew 7:6. Hurt feelings won't lend you a thing eternity wise. Perhaps repent and at least act saved.

"One of the most amazing gifts that God has given us the human mind. The ability to learn, think, choose, and reason is the essence of what makes us human. While the ability to think makes us human, it actually goes deeper. Your thoughts become a reflection of who you really are. God certainly understands this, and he speaks to this in various places all throughout his word.

One of the verses we often quote to back this is up is “as a man thinks in his heart so is he.” While this is true, I want to give you three examples of why Proverbs 23:7 (As a man thinks in his heart, so is he), can be uniquely applied.

What the Bible Means by ‘As a Man Thinks, So Is He’

To clarify, this proverb is not just talking about men. Women are included, too.

Truly, all our hearts—women and men—are similarly prone to sin. Let’s consider the full verse so we can get the right perspective.

For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.Proverbs 23:7(KJV)

What you see in this verse is a person who is saying one thing with their mouth—but their heart is in a completely different place. When faced with this conundrum, which one do you believe? You believe what’s in the heart. The thoughts and inclinations of the heart shape the reality of who you are. They shape your thinking which will ultimately shape your actions.

That’s why what you think about matters, because it is forming the basis of who you will become."
 
A Calvinist Poster offered the following list as to how Calvinists are saved:

God regenerates us.
Then we believe.
THEN God saves us.
I think you need to revisit this, because even Arminius believes and taught this. And he was one the biggest synergistic leaders. This vague generalization you provide does not treat the Calvinistic position well in the least. So, I will address this point with you, and I hope you will explain Arminius on agreeing with Calvinism on this point.

So, let ask the question that we both agree that sinners need to be regenerated, correct? So, in essence both Arminianism and Calvinism agree on this point. And what's really interesting is that Arminius himself believed and taught Total Depravity. The question begs an answer, how does a Total Depraved sinner believe? Does regeneration come before or after believing? It cannot come after, because sinners are dead in sin, and do not seek after God, nor do they understand God, because they are carnal and do not understand Spiritual things. Even Arminius held this view, because he understood that sinners do not possess the Spiritual capacities to bring themselves to salvation. And Scripture is explicit on this.

It's like this: God's Word (which is live-breathing) is preached to everyone, his sheep hear his voice through the preach word, come forth out of the darkness into the light by God and believe. This is all one event.

Titus 3:5 is also crystal clear that it is nothing we do, which you completely avoid, and that it's by the washing of REGENERATION and RENEWAL of the Holy Spirit. It's by God and his rich Mercy that we are saved, not by anything we will do, period. This clear that it's God who saves sinners, and through Promise, His Word, His Oath, that He will do for us, to redeem us from Sin, Death, Condemnation and Separation. He's the One reconciling the world to Himself.​
 
All the verses I highlighted above definitely have to do with people who "have received ... the Spirit which is of God". That means they are regenerated. Besides, Paul's Epistle is addressed to the Corinthian believers.
You didn't highlight the one that I used. Perhaps because it is obvious that those are not people who "have received ... the Spirit which is of God". You don't even deal with that verse. It is rather clear.
 
I think you need to revisit this, because even Arminius believes and taught this. And he was one the biggest synergistic leaders. This vague generalization you provide does not treat the Calvinistic position well in the least. So, I will address this point with you, and I hope you will explain Arminius on agreeing with Calvinism on this point.

So, let ask the question that we both agree that sinners need to be regenerated, correct? So, in essence both Arminianism and Calvinism agree on this point. And what's really interesting is that Arminius himself believed and taught Total Depravity. The question begs an answer, how does a Total Depraved sinner believe? Does regeneration come before or after believing? It cannot come after, because sinners are dead in sin, and do not seek after God, nor do they understand God, because they are carnal and do not understand Spiritual things. Even Arminius held this view, because he understood that sinners do not possess the Spiritual capacities to bring themselves to salvation. And Scripture is explicit on this.​
Let's pause at this moment. I agree that sinful man does need God's help in the predicament he finds himself in. The thing is God does allow for a way out of this predicament through the effectual Word of God (Rom 10:8-18) for those who believe (1 Th 2:13). The way out cannot be regeneration because with regeneration comes salvation (Titus 3:5) and that would make that person a without-Christ saved person. The problem there is that those without Christ are aliens, strangers, having no hope, and without God in the world (Eph 2:12). No one can dare say that type of person is saved.
It's like this: God's Word (which is live-breathing) is preached to everyone, his sheep hear his voice through the preach word, come forth out of the darkness into the light by God and believe. This is all one event.​
I would alter your sentence slightly: It's like this: God's Word (which is live-breathing) is preached to everyone, his sheep people hear his voice through the preach word, those who believe come forth out of the darkness into the light by God and believe. This is all one event.
Titus 3:5 is also crystal clear that it is nothing we do, which you completely avoid, and that it's by the washing of REGENERATION and RENEWAL of the Holy Spirit. It's by God and his rich Mercy that we are saved, not by anything we will do, period. This clear that it's God who saves sinners, and through Promise, His Word, His Oath, that He will do for us, to redeem us from Sin, Death, Condemnation and Separation. He's the One reconciling the world to Himself.​
Correct. I didn't avoid it. It was my Step #2 in my OP.
Actually, the previous paragraph flows right into this paragraph and this paragraph shows exactly how we are in fact saved by God. That is how we are Once Saved.
Viewing the 2 paragraphs together shows that our salvation is synergistic.
 
Let's pause at this moment. I agree that sinful man does need God's help in the predicament he finds himself in. The thing is God does allow for a way out of this predicament through the effectual Word of God (Rom 10:8-18) for those who believe (1 Th 2:13). The way out cannot be regeneration because with regeneration comes salvation
I'll address your post in bits to get clarification of your position. Explain why a sinner needs God's help. And what kind of help does the sinner receive? Since it's not regeneration what is it?
 
"But in his lapse and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good."

Excerpt from the Works of Arminius

Do you agree with this synergistic leader?​
 
I'll address your post in bits to get clarification of your position. Explain why a sinner needs God's help.
We need to be saved from our sins, from death, from our human nature.
And what kind of help does the sinner receive?
Conviction of sin, righteousness, & judgment from the Holy Spirit and the Effectual Word of God.
Since it's not regeneration what is it?
We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we believe.

I've got a question for you. We believe regeneration occurs when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. What constitutes regeneration for the Calvinist?
 
"But in his lapse and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good;​
Depends on what he means by "really good".
but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good."​
You're focusing in on the regeneration portion. Before that, there is conviction of sin, righteousness, & judgment by the Holy Spirit (John 16) and the Effectual Word of God (Rom 10:8-18).
Excerpt from the Works of Arminius

Do you agree with this synergistic leader?​
I'm not an Arminius expert so can you check what he said about "belief" in his writings. Belief plus several other indispensable things such as repentance makes our salvation synergistic. Everyone was exhorted to repent and believe by Christ (Mark 1:15) and God grants us repentance when we acknowledge the truth (2 Tim 2:25).
 
I did not say it said that in Titus 3:5.
It does say it however in Phlippians 1:29
The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).
Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.
And goats become sheep. Seen it the other day
These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.
  • "Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).
  • "My sheep" are those with the True Shepherd (in Christ).
  • "Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.
Two questions:
  • Where do goats fit in?
  • What genetics engineering lab did you witness this transformation of goats genes to sheep genes?
 
We need to be saved from our sins, from death, from our human nature.
My mistake, maybe I'm not clear in my questions. My question is why does a sinner needs God's help. So, let me ask it another way. Why can't a sinner do it by himself? You stated that sinners believe prior to regeneration, BUT need God's help, can you explain in detail what this help entails step by step
Conviction of sin, righteousness, & judgment from the Holy Spirit and the Effectual Word of God.
Okay, can you explain in detail how this happens? Isn't this conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement some kind of enlightenment or renewal from the Holy Spirit, so that sinners can understand and believe?
We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit after we believe.
So being convicted in the heart and mind is not the inner working of the Holy Spirit in the sinner?
I've got a question for you. We believe regeneration occurs when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. What constitutes regeneration for the Calvinist?
Yes we believe the same thing. But include that along with receiving the Holy Spirit we also receive a New Heart and a New Mind. Without this no sinner would hear him, understand and will to believe him. Read Arminius own words, because both Calvin and Arminius were in agreement on this point.

All of this is of Grace, God's doing through a Covenant made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham. Called Covenant of Redemption (Plan of Salvation).


 
No unconditional election here whatsoever.
So then it is what a sinners does or contributes to his or hers salvation that saves, not the person Christ and his finished works that the Father sent him to do, correct? To place anything in the sinner column and take away from what Christ accomplished, namely total redemption, then it's no longer by Grace, but by works! No different than the Pharisees who claimed vain glory in their white washed tombs and inside dead man bones.
 
My mistake, maybe I'm not clear in my questions. My question is why does a sinner needs God's help. So, let me ask it another way. Why can't a sinner do it by himself? You stated that sinners believe prior to regeneration, BUT need God's help, can you explain in detail what this help entails step by step
Sinners definitely need God's help. Through a combination of 1) being graced by God with minds, hearts, conscience, etc...and 2) by being convicted by the Holy Spirit and also by 3) the effectual word of God working in him, then one has all the support needed to believe in Christ. He is thereafter and immediately graced with the gift of the Holy Spirit, regenerated in other words, and saved as in Titus 3:5.
Okay, can you explain in detail how this happens? Isn't this conviction of sin, righteousness and judgement some kind of enlightenment or renewal from the Holy Spirit, so that sinners can understand and believe?
Excellent question. I created the following thread a few months ago when I asked a very similar question:
"Could it be that the Holy Spirit Conviction of one's Conscience & Heart is what Calvinists mean by Regeneration?"
Great minds do think alike.
So being convicted in the heart and mind is not the inner working of the Holy Spirit in the sinner?
We are not indwelt (regenerated) with the Holy Spirit yet. We need to believe in Christ first before we are saved (regenerated).
Yes we believe the same thing. But include that along with receiving the Holy Spirit we also receive a New Heart and a New Mind. Without this no sinner would hear him, understand and will to believe him. Read Arminius own words, because both Calvin and Arminius were in agreement on this point.
Are you talking about regeneration (new heart, new mind) before or after salvific belief?
The thing you need to take note of is that with regeneration comes salvation (Titus 3:5).
So if regeneration is before belief then that would make that person a without-Christ saved person. The problem there is that those without Christ are aliens, strangers, having no hope, and without God in the world (Eph 2:12). A person like that who is also regenerated would be an anomaly to say the least.
All of this is of Grace, God's doing through a Covenant made with Adam & Eve, and Abraham. Called Covenant of Redemption (Plan of Salvation).
Yes. Everything good comes from and is by the Grace of God.
 
Sinners definitely need God's help. Through a combination of 1) being graced by God with minds, hearts, conscience, etc...and 2) by being convicted by the Holy Spirit and also by 3) the effectual word of God working in him, then one has all the support needed to believe in Christ. He is thereafter and immediately graced with the gift of the Holy Spirit, regenerated in other words, and saved as in Titus 3:5.
That's not too bad...

You have the Holy Spirit in your paradigm twice, it's like what I say. We are Washed by the Holy Spirit, he have Faith in Christ; and our spirit is Renewed by the Holy Spirit. What you have said, will work in the Temporal Order...

Now; it depends on what you say the Spirit is necessary for at the beginning, not at the end...
 
So then it is what a sinners does or contributes to his or hers salvation that saves, not the person Christ and his finished works that the Father sent him to do, correct?
God saves those who believe (1 Cor 1:21). It's as simple as that.
To place anything in the sinner column and take away from what Christ accomplished, namely total redemption, then it's no longer by Grace, but by works!
Paul commended good works. He even associated "everlasting life" with good works.
(Rom 2:7) indeed to those who with patience in good work are seeking for glory, and honor, and incorruptibility, everlasting life.

James commended good works. He associates justification directly with a combination of good works and faith.
(James 2:24) You see then how a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
No different than the Pharisees who claimed vain glory in their white washed tombs and inside dead man bones.
That's not what Paul and James said concerning good works. You are mixing subject matters.
 
Sinners definitely need God's help. Through a combination of 1) being graced by God with minds, hearts, conscience, etc...and 2) by being convicted by the Holy Spirit and also by 3) the effectual word of God working in him, then one has all the support needed to believe in Christ. He is thereafter and immediately graced with the gift of the Holy Spirit, regenerated in other words, and saved as in Titus 3:5.
Thanks for sharing with me. If the sinner's heart and mind are illuminated by the Holy Spirit, how is this not regeneration prior to believing?

Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

There's so much to unpack here, this is one of my favorite passages. He saved us not by any works DONE by us, but on the contrary it's solely on God's own Mercy Alone! This is what we Calvinists called Unconditional not conditional. If it's conditional by the works we do, then it's no longer Grace, but by our works. But Titus stomps that idea. Understanding sin, the curse of sin, which all sinners are under how far we have fallen into sin and darkness; deaf, blind, and dumb. Only God's Mercy and Grace can save us from this plight. God provides everything we need in his Son to redeem his people from their sins. God is the faithful one in keeping his word, oath, promise, covenant.

"You will be my people, and I will be your God"

Excellent question. I created the following thread a few months ago when I asked a very similar question:
"Could it be that the Holy Spirit Conviction of one's Conscience & Heart is what Calvinists mean by Regeneration?"
Great minds do think alike.
See Synergy, if the Holy Spirit has renewed the mind to understand, and removed the heart of stone, and us a heart of flesh to believe. This is called regeneration, which precedes faith. Without this taking place prior to Faith nobody would be saved.
We are not indwelt (regenerated) with the Holy Spirit yet. We need to believe in Christ first before we are saved (regenerated).
I beg to differ. The mind is regenerated as is the heart prior to believing. The sinner does not possess spiritual capacities prior to being regenerated to understand, will or even desire God. Without the Holy Spirit applying these heavenly blessings no one would be saved, once again.

I would really like your detail explanation of what happens to a sinner to according to you receive conviction and such, understanding I hope as well is given, but if these things are given to the sinner prior to believing, why would anyone reject it? If they truly understand the Holy Spirit?
Are you talking about regeneration (new heart, new mind) before or after salvific belief?
The thing you need to take note of is that with regeneration comes salvation (Titus 3:5).
So if regeneration is before belief then that would make that person a without-Christ saved person. The problem there is that those without Christ are aliens, strangers, having no hope, and without God in the world (Eph 2:12). A person like that who is also regenerated would be an anomaly to say the least.

Yes. Everything good comes from and is by the Grace of God.
Amen everything is of Grace Alone, including the gift of Faith.
 
The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).































































































































Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.































































































































































































































































These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.































































































































"Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).































































"My sheep" are those with the True Shepherd (in Christ).































































"Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.































































Two questions:































































































































Where do goats fit in?































































What you witness this transformation of goats genes to' sheep genes?































































































































"It is given to you", nuff said.















The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).







Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.















These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.







"Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).



"My sheep" are those with the True SheThere pherd (in Christ).



"Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.



Two questions:







Where do goats fit in?



What genetics engineering lab did you witness this transformation of goats genes to sheep genes?



The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).

Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.



These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.

"Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).
"My sheep" are those with the True Shepherd (in Christ).
"Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.
Two questions:

Where do goats fit in?
What genetics engineering lab did you witness this transformation of goats genes to sheep genes?

The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).
Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.

These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.
  • "Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).
  • "My sheep" are those with the True Shepherd (in Christ).
  • "Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.
Two questions:
  • Where do goats fit in?






The Word of God is effectual in those who believe in Christ (1 Th 2:13). Furthermore, it is given to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer for His sake (Phil 1:29).
Summary: Salvific belief is only effectual in those who believe. No unconditional election here whatsoever.

These are the 3 categories of sheep that I know of. Note: these are not necessarily mutually exclusive categories.
  • "Lost sheep" are those without a Shepherd (without Christ).
  • "My sheep" are those with the True Shepherd (in Christ).
  • "Sheep from another fold" are those who will come to Christ when the true Shepherd (Christ) is revealed to them.
Two questions:
  • Where do goats fit in?
  • What genetics engineering lab did you witness this transformation of goats genes to sheep genes?
"it is given to you" Skipped that part. Shocker

All sheep none the less. Notice it is the sheep who here His voice.

Goats are the reprobate.

Good question. Where does the Bible say goats become sheep?
 
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