Photine
Well-known member
That question doesn’t follow. After death is destroyed there won’t be any additional deaths.
Jesus already destroyed death (2 Timothy 1:10).
That question doesn’t follow. After death is destroyed there won’t be any additional deaths.
Jesus already destroyed death (2 Timothy 1:10).
The word “destroy” in 2 Timothy 1:10 means to render entirely idle or useless.
Okay then since death is useless or powerless then why do you insist that the wicked will one day cease to exist, forever? Seems like death reigns supreme and was never destroyed according to your view.
Because immortality is conditional. Not everyone receives immortality. If one doesn't receive immortality... they aren't alive forever in torment. Death is powerless over those in Christ.
Death was destroyed it doesn't say only for those in Christ. You are guilty if adding to Scripture.
Death was destroyed it doesn't say only for those in Christ. You are guilty if adding to Scripture.
I have a novel idea.Why to reject the doctrine of "Hell".
The stuff below is mine, but for more information, see the website: edit link violation
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It is difficult prove something doesn't exist when somebody imagines it is true. Such a proof is a form of proving a negative, however there are means of proving a negative. To do so, you typically show something isn't there when it should be present, I.e. absence of evidence is evidence of absence. For example, if you don't feel your car keys in your pocket, you have sufficiently proven the negative of the presence of your car keys in your pocket. Some people will however insist that this is insufficient evidence, but I would wonder how they function in life.
Similarly, the doctrine of "hell" is something people imagine is taught in the bible. It isn't. Like many things, it is taught by the churches, but it isn't taught in the bible.
First, notice that "hell" is absent in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes a material universe. Everything in Genesis 1 is tangible. There are no netherworld regions in Genesis 1. Genesis 1 describes the sun, moon, earth, etc... as objects, putting Hebrews thousands of years ahead of everybody else and when it spread to the gentiles, it advanced them as well. Genesis 1 describes the creation, including the heavens. Yet there is no "hell" or underworld described or mentioned. This is a serious omission if the doctrine of hell is a true doctrine.
Second, notice that "hell" is absent where it should be present in Genesis 3. This is the passage where Adam is condemned. Adam and Eve are promised a fruitful womb and painful childbirth, conflict between the sexes, work, and last but not least, the condemnation: "from dust you are and to dust you will return". They are not condemned to fiery torment, they are condemned with returning to the dust. The lie of the serpent is that if you sin you will live forever, the truth is that you will die. The doctrine of hell teaches that you will live forever, it is the same lie the serpent told.
Third, notice that the condemnation is consistent through the bible. In Romans 5, Paul notes that by one man sin entered the world and death by sin. Death in the New Testament links back to death in Genesis 3. It does not link back to eternal life in fiery torment. In teaching of the salvation of man, the bible teaches that man is saved from death, not saved from eternal conscious torment.
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Regarding passages used to support such a monumental doctrine as a redefinition of death are thin. The primary passage is "the rich man and Lazarus" in Luke 16:19-31 (Link). But look closely at the passage, this is a parable by Jesus, not a description of actual events. For example:
- Heaven isn't mentioned in the passage. It speaks of "the bosom of Abraham". This place isn't defined in scripture,
- Likewise, "hades" or "hell" place mentioned in the passage isn't described in scripture either.
- These people are taken bodily. The rich man looks with his eyes, he wants a drop of water from a finger placed upon his tongue. These body parts rot away in the grave, they aren't carried away by angels.
- There is a gulf between Abraham and the rich man, yet the rich man wants Lazarus to come visit him.
- The rich man speaks and has a conversation with Abraham. Not with angels, or whatever else. He speaks to Abraham.
- Abraham is dead and has not received his reward (Heb. 11:8, 13, 39, 40). Abraham isn't in Abraham's bosom.
And of course, compare the introduction of the parable to the previous parable,
Luke 16:1 “There was a rich man whoseLuke 16:19 “There was a rich man who
Other than declaring it a parable, he couldn't make it any more obvious that this is a parable.
It can be argued that Jesus did not call it a parable, however only 11 of his 26+ parables in Luke are actually called parables. What the story in Luke 16 is actually about is in verses 14-15 Jesus attacks the Pharisees and materialism, and this materialism is why they killed him. He tells a parable specifically directed to the Pharisees, and for them to understand. Examine the characters and the story:
The prediction of the parable actually happened. Lazarus rose from the dead and they all the more wanted to kill him (John 12:9-11) rather than repent. Jesus rose from the dead and they did not repent.
- a Rich Man (High Priest Caiphas)
- his Father (Annas) (High priest when Jesus was a child)
- the sons of the Father (Eleazar, Jonathan, Theophilus, Matthias, Ananus) (also high priests)
- who all were wealthy
- were well studied in Moses and the Prophets.
- And his promise to these men was that though one would rise from the dead, they would not repent.
This parable was given to the Pharisees, not to somebody who has never heard of the God of Israel and his son. This parable isn't for the unknowing, this parable is for those well steeped in the bible. If this is a teaching for all mankind and the lost who have never heard of Jesus Christ, it is very much in the wrong place. It should have been in Genesis.
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In conclusion, the doctrine of "hell" is Pagan claptrap and should be discarded as a doctrine. The wages of sin is death (not eternal conscious torment), and the gift of God is eternal life.
God's gift is not eternal life in heaven as opposed to hell, God's gift is eternal life (period).
resurrected from hell? I think you are misusing the word resurrected.Of course and the devil, beast, and false prophet (D, B, and FP) skip the great white throne judgement completely and go directly to the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15 is for those resurrected from hell, not the lake of fire; this is the general resurrection prior to their second death. The D, B, and FP aren't even the ones who are resurrected. Did you read that too?
Revelation 20
11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Yes, on the face of it you sound right, how can someone be tormented forever without Christ indwelling them giving them eternal life?John 3:16 says only believers have eternal life. To be alive forever in any way, forever in hell, would be eternal life and introduce a contradiction to scripture. So your interpretation can't be accurate.
resurrected from hell? I think you are misusing the word resurrected.
You seem to be claiming that no one goes to the lake of fire, though verse 15 speaks of humans not written in the book
Yes, on the face of it you sound right, how can someone be tormented forever without Christ indwelling them giving them eternal life?
I think it was said earlier, the breath of God that gives each of us life is Go'd eterna; breath
I find nothing in scripture that says anything about your claim....show me, please.Yes, on the face of it you sound right, how can someone be tormented forever without Christ indwelling them giving them eternal life?
I think it was said earlier, the breath of God that gives each of us life is Go'd eterna; breath
We already looked at the verse in Revelation, I never saw you acknowledge that those humans not in the Book of life will be tormented foreverI find nothing in scripture that says anything about your claim....show me, please.
"soul death" what is that? What verse describes, names it?Body, spirit, and soul death are Biblical things.
Soul death is like the name sounds, the soul ceases to be alive. I believe someone's soul is not immortal unless God makes it immortal, this is typically called conditional immortality theology and it's Biblically viable."soul death" what is that? What verse describes, names it?
Certainly the Ezekiel verse is about death on earth.Soul death is like the name sounds, the soul ceases to be alive. I believe someone's soul is not immortal unless God makes it immortal, this is typically called conditional immortality theology and it's Biblically viable.
Matthew 10:28
28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Ezekiel 18:20
20The soul who sins is the one who will die.
Yes.Imagine burning in flames for a full minute, now extend that to an hour…you are concious with the knowledge it won’t stop. How about 12 hours, a day, a week, a month in flames and kept alive and concious for the purpose of suffering.
A year, a decade, a century. Concious in flames burning and sustsined so as to continue torture. Physical, emotional, psychic….burning searing pain without release…forever.
Do you think our Lord is capable of that?
That grieves me, friend.Yes.