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Ladodgers6
Guest
Adam was not created in Sin, David, God created upright and good, totally be able to obey God's commands. He could choose freely without either way. If not, then this would make God the author of evil, follow?
Why does God call people to repentence?
- Thread starter LeeH
- Start date
preacher4truth
Well-known member
I don't think David implied this.
Of course.
Clarify?
The above is based upon an unclear preceding comment.
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Ladodgers6
Guest
Meaning Adam who was created will a Total Libertarian Free-Will (power of contrary choice) could choose either way; to obey or disobey God. Not like sinners who are bound to sin, and their wills enslave to it.
preacher4truth
Well-known member
Is this in answer to my post?
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Ladodgers6
Guest
After our 2 hour conversation on the phone, I logged back on CARM look at your our buddies post.
eternomade
Well-known member
Yes it is for ALL, both Jew and Greek:
Acts 20
21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes!
I do not believe that He wants all people to be saved because that is impossible. Christ already died and saved His people, so it would be impossible for God to "want" to add or subtract from that effectual "atonement".
The purpose is always for God's glory:
Exodus 33
18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
eternomade
Well-known member
This is speculation though.
Genesis 2
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
You will have to explain what you mean by this making God the author of evil. God uses Satan(and other means) to accomplish His purposes. See Job 42:1-11. God is not evil nor can He be evil.
David1701
Well-known member
Amen.
I think that this would need considerable expansion; however, we lack the information to do more than speculate.
We don't know what went on in Adam's mind, just before he ate the forbidden fruit; although, we do know what went on in Eve's. Did her erroneous thinking, and selfish desires, render her incapable of obeying the Lord?
But, as I've alluded to above: did Adam and Eve's inner condition change, just before they ate the forbidden fruit, such as to render them incapable of obeying the Lord? Also, we don't know that they could choose freely, either way, in their original state; in fact, I would guess (I can't do more) that they were, initially, incapable of disobeying the Lord, but not unchangeably so.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
I would say that Adam and Eve were Neutral; they were Made by God "Good". There needs to be a correlation between Adam and the Second Adam 'Jesus'; Christ was able to Obey the LORD. He suppressed the expression of his Deity, and Lived on the level of an Unfallen Adam...
It's nice to have something to compare to us, when it comes to difficult Doctrines. It's one reason I often bring up the Angels as an example; which can help us understand some Doctrines...
eternomade
Well-known member
Representation and union and substitution too... Adam and Christ matter big time
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Perfection! - by ReverendRV
Hebrews 5:9 KJV; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. This is something that is pretty hard to swallow; unless you consider this as speaking of Christ’s Humanity. You ask, “Why would a perfect man need to be made perfect??” Your question is bogged down with a Presupposition; when the Bible says that he needed to be made perfect, why would you say that he was already perfect? ~ I know someone who is troubled by a relative who comes to their house and always judges how clean it is. This relative is the type who spring-cleans their home daily. The judging is harsh, but the truth of the matter is that the house is cleaned ‘Good’; although it may not be ‘Perfect’. I told this person not to worry, even ‘Good’ was good enough for God; let me explain. ~ When God created the world he saw that it was ‘Good’. We have a tendency to define this as ‘Perfect’ because there was no Sin in the world; yet. Just like Jesus, the first Man Adam needed to be perfected. Keeping the Law of God comes with a promise; ‘it will be our Righteousness’. But the problem is that only Adam and Jesus could be made Perfect by God’s Law; It makes us Imperfect…
These two men were brought forth Sinless and are the only two people that God chose to be Federal Heads for Humanity; you are either with one or the other. Since everyone else is born in Adam’s jurisdiction, the Law of God cannot help you at all. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone that tells Lies? Not so perfect; are you? Have you ever stolen anything? What do you call someone who steals? Have you ever used God as a filthy cuss word? Just how many of the Ten Commandments can we break and still be Good; no less still be Perfect?? These are only a few of the ten; if God judged you by them would you be guilty or innocent? God sends guilty Sinners to Hell forever. ~ You object, “You said earlier that ‘Good’ is good enough for God?!” This is true for someone who is like Switzerland and neutral; but you are not an unfallen Adam or a Jesus Christ…
You need to be made perfect, there is still time! Adam ate the apple and broke the Law of God, becoming imperfect. But Jesus kept the Ten Commandments and this made him Perfect. As God, he loves the world so much that he shares his perfect record with all who will believe in him as their Lord and Savior. Jesus died on a cross, was buried for three days but rose from the dead; you can’t keep a perfect man down! We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Christ our Lord, without our trying to perfect ourselves. If we try to earn perfection, then Grace is no longer Grace. ~ Find a Church and start reading the Bible; Repent of your Sins and Confess Jesus as Lord. Though God sees the Church as Perfect because of his Perfected Son, we will not be perfected until he returns to Judge the world. He has left us his Perfect Holy Spirit and the Bible to help us along the Way…
Psalm 18:13 NIV; As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.
David1701
Well-known member
Ah, but "good" (very good, in fact) is not neutral.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Perhaps you're right. Whatever word is appropriate, being Made Good is beneath being Made Perfect. For now, Neutral will do...
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Ladodgers6
Guest
I hope this is more clear, because as I have always said I am the dumbest Christian in Christendom. Let me know thoughts, and please know I will not take offense if we disagree, because discussing God's Word, with Love, care, passion, and diligence. Looking forward to your thoughts.
Adam was not like this in the beginning. Again, Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. He was created good by God (Genesis 1:31). He had the ability to both sin and not sin, where the unbeliever today only has the ability to choose to sin freely.
Again, free will is the ability to make choices without being coerced. Unbelievers are not being coerced to sin. They freely choose to do this on their own. But, as the verses above reveal, the unbeliever cannot please God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). This is because he possesses a fallen nature. He is still free. He still possesses free will. But he can’t freely choose to desire something he is not capable of desiring. We must, therefore, define free will as the ability to make uncoerced choices that are consistent with one’s nature.
Adam had a non-fallen nature and was freely able to choose to sin as well as not to sin. The unbeliever today has a fallen nature and is freely able to choose to sin, but he cannot freely choose not to sin.
Did Adam have free will to sin or not sin?
Yes, Adam had free will. Free will is the ability to make choices that are not coerced. It is the ability to act at one’s own discretion, according to one’s desires. It is a voluntary choice, not one that is forced or restricted by a threat or by force. In light of this, Adam had free will; he could choose to sin as well as choose not to sin. He could choose either one because he was not fallen in his nature as we are.
But this does not mean that people today, in particular, unbelievers, have free will to the same extent that Adam had free will. Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.
The Bible tells us that the unbeliever is a slave of sin (Romans 6:14-20), does not seek for God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). He is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), cannot receive spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), and his righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Such a person is certainly free to make any choice he or she desires, but those choices will be consistent with his fallen nature. Adam had free will and an unfallen nature. People today have free will in the sense that they make uncoerced choices, but their nature is fallen and thus those choices will always flow from the inner desires of a sinful heart.
But this does not mean that people today, in particular, unbelievers, have free will to the same extent that Adam had free will. Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.
The Bible tells us that the unbeliever is a slave of sin (Romans 6:14-20), does not seek for God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). He is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), cannot receive spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), and his righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Such a person is certainly free to make any choice he or she desires, but those choices will be consistent with his fallen nature. Adam had free will and an unfallen nature. People today have free will in the sense that they make uncoerced choices, but their nature is fallen and thus those choices will always flow from the inner desires of a sinful heart.
Adam had free will and a non-fallen nature
Adam was not like this in the beginning. Again, Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. He was created good by God (Genesis 1:31). He had the ability to both sin and not sin, where the unbeliever today only has the ability to choose to sin freely.
Again, free will is the ability to make choices without being coerced. Unbelievers are not being coerced to sin. They freely choose to do this on their own. But, as the verses above reveal, the unbeliever cannot please God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). This is because he possesses a fallen nature. He is still free. He still possesses free will. But he can’t freely choose to desire something he is not capable of desiring. We must, therefore, define free will as the ability to make uncoerced choices that are consistent with one’s nature.
Adam had a non-fallen nature and was freely able to choose to sin as well as not to sin. The unbeliever today has a fallen nature and is freely able to choose to sin, but he cannot freely choose not to sin.
Conclusion
So yes, Adam had free will. He had the ability to make choices that were consistent with his non-fallen nature. No one forced him to sin. He freely chose to rebel against God. But we do not have the same non-fallen nature that Adam originally had. We are fallen, and we will act in a manner consistent with our fallenness. It is only through the grace of God in the person of Christ who has redeemed us and regenerated us (John 3:3-8; 2 Cor. 5:17), that we are then enabled to choose to freely follow God’s will.
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Ladodgers6
Guest
Hey brother, good to hear from you, hope all is well. Yeah, no problem, here's this, let me know what you think.
Adam was not like this in the beginning. Again, Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. He was created good by God (Genesis 1:31). He had the ability to both sin and not sin, where the unbeliever today only has the ability to choose to sin freely.
Again, free will is the ability to make choices without being coerced. Unbelievers are not being coerced to sin. They freely choose to do this on their own. But, as the verses above reveal, the unbeliever cannot please God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). This is because he possesses a fallen nature. He is still free. He still possesses free will. But he can’t freely choose to desire something he is not capable of desiring. We must, therefore, define free will as the ability to make uncoerced choices that are consistent with one’s nature.
Adam had a non-fallen nature and was freely able to choose to sin as well as not to sin. The unbeliever today has a fallen nature and is freely able to choose to sin, but he cannot freely choose not to sin.
Did Adam have free will to sin or not sin?
Yes, Adam had free will. Free will is the ability to make choices that are not coerced. It is the ability to act at one’s own discretion, according to one’s desires. It is a voluntary choice, not one that is forced or restricted by a threat or by force. In light of this, Adam had free will; he could choose to sin as well as choose not to sin. He could choose either one because he was not fallen in his nature as we are.
But this does not mean that people today, in particular, unbelievers, have free will to the same extent that Adam had free will. Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.
The Bible tells us that the unbeliever is a slave of sin (Romans 6:14-20), does not seek for God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). He is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), cannot receive spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), and his righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Such a person is certainly free to make any choice he or she desires, but those choices will be consistent with his fallen nature. Adam had free will and an unfallen nature. People today have free will in the sense that they make uncoerced choices, but their nature is fallen and thus those choices will always flow from the inner desires of a sinful heart.
But this does not mean that people today, in particular, unbelievers, have free will to the same extent that Adam had free will. Unbelievers have free will because they have the free choice to be able to do whatever they desire to do. But their desires will be consistent with their fallen natures. This is why unbelievers do not have the ability to not sin. They are perfectly free to choose to behave in a manner consistent with their fallenness. No one is forcing them to choose to rebel against God. No one is forcing them to sin. They sin on their own and act in a manner that is consistent with their fallenness.
The Bible tells us that the unbeliever is a slave of sin (Romans 6:14-20), does not seek for God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). He is dead in his sins (Ephesians 2:1), is by nature a child of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), cannot receive spiritual truths (1 Corinthians 2:14), and his righteous deeds are filthy rags before God (Isaiah 64:6). Such a person is certainly free to make any choice he or she desires, but those choices will be consistent with his fallen nature. Adam had free will and an unfallen nature. People today have free will in the sense that they make uncoerced choices, but their nature is fallen and thus those choices will always flow from the inner desires of a sinful heart.
Adam had free will and a non-fallen nature
Adam was not like this in the beginning. Again, Adam had both free will and an unfallen nature. He was not a slave of sin, nor was he dead in his sins. He was created good by God (Genesis 1:31). He had the ability to both sin and not sin, where the unbeliever today only has the ability to choose to sin freely.
Again, free will is the ability to make choices without being coerced. Unbelievers are not being coerced to sin. They freely choose to do this on their own. But, as the verses above reveal, the unbeliever cannot please God and can do no good (Romans 3:10-12). This is because he possesses a fallen nature. He is still free. He still possesses free will. But he can’t freely choose to desire something he is not capable of desiring. We must, therefore, define free will as the ability to make uncoerced choices that are consistent with one’s nature.
Adam had a non-fallen nature and was freely able to choose to sin as well as not to sin. The unbeliever today has a fallen nature and is freely able to choose to sin, but he cannot freely choose not to sin.
Conclusion
Conclusion
So yes, Adam had free will. He had the ability to make choices that were consistent with his non-fallen nature. No one forced him to sin. He freely chose to rebel against God. But we do not have the same non-fallen nature that Adam originally had. We are fallen, and we will act in a manner consistent with our fallenness. It is only through the grace of God in the person of Christ who has redeemed us and regenerated us (John 3:3-8; 2 Cor. 5:17), that we are then enabled to choose to freely follow God’s will.
(So, now if Adam did not have free-will choice to choose either way to obey God and sin against God. Then Adam is not to blame here, he didn't have choice, but was forced to sin. This makes God the author of evil, not Adam. But in Romans 5:12-21, Paul states that it was by One Man's Act of Disobedience; Adam choice to eat of the tree, that brought sin, death, and condemnation. To clarify further, Paul is contrasting the Two Adams in Romans 5. The Last Adam did what the first Adam failed to accomplish. And it's through the One Act Obedience that brought Righteous, Eternal Life, and Justification.) My comments.
(So, now if Adam did not have free-will choice to choose either way to obey God and sin against God. Then Adam is not to blame here, he didn't have choice, but was forced to sin. This makes God the author of evil, not Adam. But in Romans 5:12-21, Paul states that it was by One Man's Act of Disobedience; Adam choice to eat of the tree, that brought sin, death, and condemnation. To clarify further, Paul is contrasting the Two Adams in Romans 5. The Last Adam did what the first Adam failed to accomplish. And it's through the One Act Obedience that brought Righteous, Eternal Life, and Justification.) My comments.
David1701
Well-known member
Having been made "very good", Adam and Eve would have had an inbuilt bias for what is good, but, with the ability to resist and corrupt that bias (otherwise they would not have fallen).
Rockson
Well-known member
Well right out of the gate Matt is forgetting something. Calvinism teaches that the actions of Adam and Eve were ordained before they did them. That means a guaranteed end result with no possibility to change. So where is your free will?
ReverendRV
Well-known member
It sure would be nice if Matt would spend some time here, even if he needed to start a new Profile...
Matt Slick 2.0
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Ladodgers6
Guest
Well Rockson, Calvin holds the same position as Matt. Do your homework.