What is the salvific effect of today's Mass?

That is why one should not follow men. But weren't you only at non RC camps, so not really involved as a protestant. I mean I am just going by your past posts. I have never said all non RC institutions are perfect, as they are not. But the RCC was outstanding in its arrogance.

But ever time an RC says look over there, they confirm they are not what they claim to be. They prove they are not the church established by Jesus, His church would never be the same as over there for a start. His church is everything your institution is not.
You know, I don't get why you think the fact that there is sin in the Church somehow disproves that it is Christ's Church.

I would think sin proves the Church's message: we need a redeemer. We are dead in sin without Christ. Not only does sin PROVE the message of the Church, I would also think it PROVES that God is with the Church. In other words--given the sin in the Church, the Church should have died out as soon as it got started--yet it remains to this day in 2022 despite heresy, strive, scandal and sin attempting to destroy it.

The Catholic Church claims to be infallible; not impeccable. The RCC has never claimed to be above reproach.
 
You know, I don't get why you think the fact that there is sin in the Church somehow disproves that it is Christ's Church.

I would think sin proves the Church's message: we need a redeemer. We are dead in sin without Christ. Not only does sin PROVE the message of the Church, I would also think it PROVES that God is with the Church. In other words--given the sin in the Church, the Church should have died out as soon as it got started--yet it remains to this day in 2022 despite heresy, strive, scandal and sin attempting to destroy it.

The Catholic Church claims to be infallible; not impeccable. The RCC has never claimed to be above reproach.
Oh you don't know why? Really.

First it shows it is the bad tree according to Matthew and Luke. If it is the bad tree then it is not the good tree. Jesus' real tree is the good tree.

Luke 6:43

No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matt 7:17

Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Your institution fails every other single scriptural test for His church.

It does not look like His church, which is spotless, yours is far from spotless. This is just one example that is does not even look like His church. 1 Peter 1 is very clear on what it looks like as well. The whole chapter is important. So many other books and verses discuss how His church looks. The church is its members not its offices or its buildings.

Eph 5:27

So that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

His church protects the sheep, your institution harms the sheep.

Acts 20:28

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:2

Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

Your leaders do not meet the scriptural requirements for leaders, they do not act as His leaders. His leaders are servants, they do not grab the front seats, they do not elevate themselves. Yours do. I could post more verses to support these points but RCs should know where they are.

These are just a few examples of how the bad fruit and actions as well as the false teachings prove your institution is NOT His church. For centuries their actions/fruit, practices, false teachings prove it is NOT his church and never has been. Its history show it has followed the Roman emperors and their fruit, not Jesus and His fruit. The RCC has killed its opposition and destroyed the records and history of others. It has not been a shiny light on a hill at all.

We are clearly told to test the spirits, to be wary of false teachers. Your leaders fail the testing of the spirits.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Cor 11:13+

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

It does not say respect the office no matter who is in the office anywhere in scripture. If your institution did not ignore 1 Cor 5:11 then it might have followed Jesus, but it ignored it. It preferred to follow evil men. I could add so many more examples and verses but I do not have all day.

Jesus' church already has a redeemer and it is full of those who have already been redeemed, who are born again, who have the mind of Christ, who have His laws written on their hearts. Your institution is neither infallible nor impeccable. No RC has proved it is infallible and its false teachings prove that is just another false claim. Naturally, its fruit throughout history clearly show it is not impeccable.
 
You know, I don't get why you think the fact that there is sin in the Church somehow disproves that it is Christ's Church.

I would think sin proves the Church's message: we need a redeemer. We are dead in sin without Christ. Not only does sin PROVE the message of the Church, I would also think it PROVES that God is with the Church. In other words--given the sin in the Church, the Church should have died out as soon as it got started--yet it remains to this day in 2022 despite heresy, strive, scandal and sin attempting to destroy it.

The Catholic Church claims to be infallible; not impeccable. The RCC has never claimed to be above reproach.

We can NOT keep any sins. We have to give them all up. It doesn't matter who it is, or where we live. Or even what church we attend. Scripture teaches us that we can't keep any of them period.

Contrary to what some folks think, sin within ANY church is seen as hypocrisy loud and clear. Even people who do not believe God exists, know this and nothing is more irritating to them, than a person who displays false humility and piety and then boasts about it. Even people who do not believe God exists, know that any and all sins are wrong. Actions speak really loud to people all around us.

In the book of revelation Jesus does NOT commend the early church for having sin within it. As a matter of fact Jesus is flat out telling the early church to get rid of all sin within it.

Revelation 1:4
"To the seven churches in the province of Asia:"

Revelation 2:
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:14-15
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 3:1
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 3:14-15
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Revelation 3:17
You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
 
Part 11 His church does not look like over there, it stands out because it is different. Every time an RC says look over there they show their institution is just the same as over there and therefore is not standing out at all. Just more evidence it is not His church.
 
We can NOT keep any sins. We have to give them all up. It doesn't matter who it is, or where we live. Or even what church we attend. Scripture teaches us that we can't keep any of them period.

Contrary to what some folks think, sin within ANY church is seen as hypocrisy loud and clear. Even people who do not believe God exists, know this and nothing is more irritating to them, than a person who displays false humility and piety and then boasts about it. Even people who do not believe God exists, know that any and all sins are wrong. Actions speak really loud to people all around us.

In the book of revelation Jesus does NOT commend the early church for having sin within it. As a matter of fact Jesus is flat out telling the early church to get rid of all sin within it.

Revelation 1:4
"To the seven churches in the province of Asia:"

Revelation 2:
Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first.

Revelation 2:14-15
Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Revelation 2:20
Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophet. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.

Revelation 3:1
These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead.

Revelation 3:14-15
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation. I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot.

Revelation 3:17
You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked.
Let me get this straight:

When a sinner comes to Christ and "gets saved" they are perfect? They never sin again?
 
Oh you don't know why? Really.

First it shows it is the bad tree according to Matthew and Luke. If it is the bad tree then it is not the good tree. Jesus' real tree is the good tree.

Luke 6:43

No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matt 7:17

Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.

Your institution fails every other single scriptural test for His church.

It does not look like His church, which is spotless, yours is far from spotless. This is just one example that is does not even look like His church. 1 Peter 1 is very clear on what it looks like as well. The whole chapter is important. So many other books and verses discuss how His church looks. The church is its members not its offices or its buildings.

Eph 5:27

So that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.

His church protects the sheep, your institution harms the sheep.

Acts 20:28

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

1 Peter 5:2

Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly;

Your leaders do not meet the scriptural requirements for leaders, they do not act as His leaders. His leaders are servants, they do not grab the front seats, they do not elevate themselves. Yours do. I could post more verses to support these points but RCs should know where they are.

These are just a few examples of how the bad fruit and actions as well as the false teachings prove your institution is NOT His church. For centuries their actions/fruit, practices, false teachings prove it is NOT his church and never has been. Its history show it has followed the Roman emperors and their fruit, not Jesus and His fruit. The RCC has killed its opposition and destroyed the records and history of others. It has not been a shiny light on a hill at all.

We are clearly told to test the spirits, to be wary of false teachers. Your leaders fail the testing of the spirits.

1 John 4:1

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

2 Cor 11:13+

For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

It does not say respect the office no matter who is in the office anywhere in scripture. If your institution did not ignore 1 Cor 5:11 then it might have followed Jesus, but it ignored it. It preferred to follow evil men. I could add so many more examples and verses but I do not have all day.

Jesus' church already has a redeemer and it is full of those who have already been redeemed, who are born again, who have the mind of Christ, who have His laws written on their hearts. Your institution is neither infallible nor impeccable. No RC has proved it is infallible and its false teachings prove that is just another false claim. Naturally, its fruit throughout history clearly show it is not impeccable.
Again, I am not aware that Christians are perfect.

Does a person stop sinning when they "get saved?" Do they become sinless--that is---never sin again?
 
Again, I am not aware that Christians are perfect.

Does a person stop sinning when they "get saved?" Do they become sinless--that is---never sin again?
But in their posts RCs claims that is how one is saved by being holy, perfect. You mean they are wrong.

I don't know about you but I do not deliberately sin. If I make a mistake I immediately try and rectify the problem, as my conscience so dictates. I notice you never say what state you are in, but try to belittle others by making out they are sinners just like your evil leaders. That is a false implication and it is attacking true believers and followers of Jesus.

But your leaders have not only not stopped sinning, they have wallowed in sin. The non expose of sin allows it to grow and infest more and more of your institution. If you ignore 1 Cor 5:11 then you have opened the door for evil to flourish.

So I can take it that if you accept you still sin, all RCs are sexually immoral for example. This is an example of the bad fruit I refer to. This is the fruit of your leaders which 1 Cor 5:11 shows is really unacceptable to the real church. The fruit of your church is murder, killing, torture, greed, false teachings, sexual immorality and so one. It has centuries of besmirking the name of Jesus with its evil fruit. By your post you think that still makes your institution spotless.
 
But in their posts RCs claims that is how one is saved by being holy, perfect. You mean they are wrong.

I don't know about you but I do not deliberately sin. If I make a mistake I immediately try and rectify the problem, as my conscience so dictates. I notice you never say what state you are in, but try to belittle others by making out they are sinners just like your evil leaders. That is a false implication and it is attacking true believers and followers of Jesus.

But your leaders have not only not stopped sinning, they have wallowed in sin. The non expose of sin allows it to grow and infest more and more of your institution. If you ignore 1 Cor 5:11 then you have opened the door for evil to flourish.

So I can take it that if you accept you still sin, all RCs are sexually immoral for example. This is an example of the bad fruit I refer to. This is the fruit of your leaders which 1 Cor 5:11 shows is really unacceptable to the real church. The fruit of your church is murder, killing, torture, greed, false teachings, sexual immorality and so one. It has centuries of besmirking the name of Jesus with its evil fruit. By your post you think that still makes your institution spotless.
We don't claim we're saved by being holy and/or perfect. We claim that we're saved by Grace. Holiness and perfection are only possible because we're already saved.
 
the Church should have died out as soon as it got started--

God does NOT cause us to sin, neither does He tempt us.

James 1:13
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;


There is a huge difference between the occasional stumble followed with making a conscience effort in NOT repeating the sin, and continuing in it followed with making excuses to justify the sinning. And people who do not believe God exists, notice the difference.

And you know something? None of the non-rc churches have died out either. They are still here, in spite of all the rcc inquisitions, and attempts at forcing people to into the rcc over the centuries. So the rcc doesn't have anything over any of the other churches and religions around the world.
 
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