Census: Less than half of England and Wales population identifies as Christian

[Temujin]

I'm not changing what has been normal for millennia, you and the alphabet culture are hard at work to change it, normalize it like the Hollywood actor said their goal was.

What has been normal for millennia is that cultural attitudes to homosexuality differ. Some celebrated it, some encouraged it, some condemned it, some tolerate it. Some ignore it. History abounds with homosexual characters, whose homosexuality had no more impact on their lives than the heterosexuality of their peers. The contributions to society made by homosexuals is in proportion to their numbers. They can be found in every sector or niche of civilised life. What's abnormal, is your attitude to it.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

So is deviation from average height. Being non-Christian is the norm. Do you describe Christians as deviants? Amongst human beings, being white is deviant. Amongst mammals, being human is deviant. Amongst living organisms on earth, anything that isn't a bacteria is deviant. The norm is just a statistical blip. You are basing a moral crusade on statistics?

"The norm is just a statistical blip." does not change millennia of what is and isn't normal. That is, unless you believe regression is progression.

 

[Temujin]

"The norm is just a statistical blip." does not change millennia of what is and isn't normal. That is, unless you believe regression is progression.

The person trying to change what is normal, and has been for millennia, is you. There's nothing progressive about persecution of the different. That's the sort of aberration that civilised societies have been trying to eradicate for centuries.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

What has been normal for millennia is that cultural attitudes to homosexuality differ. Some celebrated it, some encouraged it, some condemned it, some tolerate it. Some ignore it. History abounds with homosexual characters, whose homosexuality had no more impact on their lives than the heterosexuality of their peers. The contributions to society made by homosexuals is in proportion to their numbers. They can be found in every sector or niche of civilised life. What's abnormal, is your attitude to it.

Indeed, there have been homosexuals throughout history. Look at Sodom, or Gomorrah or even read Romans 1 and 2 Timothy 3 or the OT references to homosexuality and many have contributed in some form or fashion to society. But just because this sin has been around doesn't change the fact that any deviancy from what God has designed is sin. Rebellion. Disobedience. Sin is sin and you will not change that reality.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

The person trying to change what is normal, and has been for millennia, is you.

A total fabrication.

There's nothing progressive about persecution of the different. That's the sort of aberration that civilised societies have been trying to eradicate for centuries.

Where have I persecuted anyone? Where have I demonstrably harmed anyone? I have expressed my opinion, nothing else and I'm sorry but if you believe what we are living in today is in any way, shape or form a "civilized society", yea, you have issues my friend.

 

[Temujin]

Indeed, there have been homosexuals throughout history. Look at Sodom, or Gomorrah or even read Romans 1 and 2 Timothy 3 or the OT references to homosexuality and many have contributed in some form or fashion to society. But just because this sin has been around doesn't change the fact that any deviancy from what God has designed is sin. Rebellion. Disobedience. Sin is sin and you will not change that reality.

Sin is imaginary. A concept dreamt up to control underlings. Your words unconsciously reveal what Christianity is all about. It's prime purpose has been through the ages, to prevent Rebellion and Disobedience, by pretending that these are offences against God rather than the actual, human rulers. Homosexuality is irrelevant to human society. It's just part of the warf and weft of human beings living together. Stop obsessing over it and pick on something that actually is harmful. Over eating for example. Isn't gluttony a sin? Well clogging up both your arteries and hospital facilities through gluttony, digging your grave with your own teeth, as a lifestyle that really does damage both self and community. But for some reason you are more interested in the salacious "sins".

 

[Temujin]

A total fabrication.

I'm afraid not. Your assertions have no weight.

Where have I persecuted anyone? Where have I demonstrably harmed anyone? I have expressed my opinion, nothing else and I'm sorry but if you believe what we are living in today is in any way, shape or form a "civilized society", yea, you have issues my friend.

Where have I said that you personally persecuted anyone, or demonstrably harmed anyone. The guilty flee when no man pursueth.

I am content with the normal, accepted definition of civilised society, not your repressive, sex-obsessed, discriminatory and hypocritical dream world.

 

[shnarkle]

I learned from Paul that we practice the truth when we walk in the light, that does not mean we do not still sin (1 John 1; Romans 7).

It necessarily means one does not sin if they're under the New Covenant. You have a serious reading comprehension problem.

That said, are you proclaiming you are sinless

False. Strawman argument. Where have I ever said I'm sinless??? Go ahead. I'll wait.

because you claim to walk in the Spirit

False. Strawman argument. Where have I ever claimed to walk in the spirit??? Go ahead. I'll wait for you to check all of my posts. Not a one has ever made such a claim.

As for me

This isn't about you.

I am aware of what a wretch I am and am only imputed with Jesus' righteousness, my sin forgiven. Why? Because we are all sinners and no one is perfect except for the Lord and that is why we must rely upon His righteousness so our fellowship with the Father is restored. And to answer your counter before you write it, do we sin so that grace may increase? No. We are to be perfect as the Lord is perfect (which not one of us can be, reality check) because we yet we fall short of the glory of the Lord. Even as followers of the Way, forgiven and redeemed, we are still dual natured creatures, flesh and spirit. The flesh we battle against because in our flesh sin dwells but in our redemption through Christ we are spiritually reborn. Sin, past, present and future forgiven and I thank my Lord, God and Savior for His mercy and grace because all my works are as filthy rags.

Romans 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me.

Those who "walk after the flesh do not fulfill the lust of the flesh" Paul doesn't mince words so you haven't quite got Paul's argument yet.

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Because that's the paradigm and methodology of the Old Covenant which is by "will and effort" Roman 9:16

19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work:

Which is the law of sin and has nothing to do with God's law.

Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

Again, he's referring to the Old Covenant.

24 What a wretched man I am!

All who are under the Old Covenant are wretched!!!

Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord!

NOTE THE PRESENT TENSE!!! Delivers him from what??? Everything he just articulated!!!

So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God’s law, but in my sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

And wouldn't you know it, this is right where you would stop. Let's look at what Paul has to say in the next verses which you so conveniently left out:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED IN US, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Again, notice the present tense!!!

1 John 1:6 If we say we have fellowship with Him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Again, note what he is actually saying. Those who walk in darkness SIN. Do you sin??? You just claimed you do. 1 John 1:6 informs you that you're a liar.

7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light,

As He is in the light??? Did you notice that??? He is not just in the light. He is the light! He is that perfect sinless light, and you can't walk in that light if you continue to sin.

we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Those who are cleansed are not dirty. Do you see that??? Do you understand the difference between clean and filthy???

10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him out to be a liar, and His word is not in us.

Who has claimed that they have not sinned??? Again, note the PAST tense.

 

[Backup]

Swearing a lot
Thinking only of myself.
Watching porn
Lying
Etc.
Do you still do any of those things?

probably less than you

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

It necessarily means one does not sin if they're under the New Covenant. You have a serious reading comprehension problem.

False. Strawman argument. Where have I ever said I'm sinless??? Go ahead. I'll wait.

False. Strawman argument. Where have I ever claimed to walk in the spirit??? Go ahead. I'll wait for you to check all of my posts. Not a one has ever made such a claim.

This isn't about you.

Those who "walk after the flesh do not fulfill the lust of the flesh" Paul doesn't mince words so you haven't quite got Paul's argument yet.

Because that's the paradigm and methodology of the Old Covenant which is by "will and effort" Roman 9:16

Which is the law of sin and has nothing to do with God's law.

Again, he's referring to the Old Covenant.

All who are under the Old Covenant are wretched!!!

NOTE THE PRESENT TENSE!!! Delivers him from what??? Everything he just articulated!!!

And wouldn't you know it, this is right where you would stop. Let's look at what Paul has to say in the next verses which you so conveniently left out:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 That the righteousness of the law might be FULFILLED IN US, who walk NOT after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

Again, notice the present tense!!!


Again, note what he is actually saying. Those who walk in darkness SIN. Do you sin??? You just claimed you do. 1 John 1:6 informs you that you're a liar.

As He is in the light??? Did you notice that??? He is not just in the light. He is the light! He is that perfect sinless light, and you can't walk in that light if you continue to sin.

Those who are cleansed are not dirty. Do you see that??? Do you understand the difference between clean and filthy???

Who has claimed that they have not sinned??? Again, note the PAST tense.

You seem angry. Why is that? And if you claim to not sin then you are a liar. I do not live in darkness, and yet, I sin and as a sinner I have a Savior that forgives me. Past, present and future.

 

[shnarkle]

You seem angry. Why is that?

You seem confused and distracted, and more than a bit obsessed with me rather than what I'm actually posting. Why is that? Why are you so inclined to engage in pointless Ad Hominem rather than address what I've posted?

And if you claim to not sin then you are a liar

Where have I ever claimed I don't sin??? Again, this isn't about you or me. Until you address what I've posted, you've effectively conceded the points made.

. I do not live in darkness, and yet, I sin

And yet you contradict scripture which makes you more than just a liar, but a worthy recipient of the curses reserved for those who twist scripture.

and as a sinner I have a Savior that forgives me. Past, present and future.

You're simply justifying your sin which Christ himself refers to as an abomination. Luke 16:15
No man can sin without coming up with some rationalization or justification. You not only must justify your sin before you commit it, you then add insult to injury by mocking the crucifixion as your get out of hell free card.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

You seem confused and distracted, and more than a bit obsessed with me rather than what I'm actually posting. Why is that? Why are you so inclined to engage in pointless Ad Hominem rather than address what I've posted?

Where have I ever claimed I don't sin??? Again, this isn't about you or me. Until you address what I've posted, you've effectively conceded the points made.

And yet you contradict scripture which makes you more than just a liar, but a worthy recipient of the curses reserved for those who twist scripture.

You're simply justifying your sin which Christ himself refers to as an abomination. Luke 16:15
No man can sin without coming up with some rationalization or justification. You not only must justify your sin before you commit it, you then add insult to injury by mocking the crucifixion as your get out of hell free card.

Given the tenor of your post I am not going to respond because it would be contrary to my faith. I will turn my other cheek to you and bless you.

Bless you shnarkle,

Ldb

 

[shnarkle]

Given the tenor of your post

You're projecting. You're the one rudely ignoring what is presented to you and instead focusing on pointless Ad Hominem attacks.

I am not going to respond because it would be contrary to my faith.

Evidently, you're unfamiliar with Peter's recommendation to be prepared to defend your faith., but then he's referring to those who have a faith worth defending.

I will turn my other cheek to you and bless you.

You're not turning the other cheek. You're ignoring not only the argument presented, but scripture which convicts you. In case you weren't aware, this is one of the primary purposes of scripture, and to spurn the blessings associated with being corrected by scripture is pitiful to say the least.

Bless you shnarkle,

Ldb

 

[BMS]

And your tired rhetoric (2000 years old) that innate behaviour such as homosexuality is a choice, is obviously wrong. You cannot change that.

Its not just us that says it, there is no concensus of scientific agreement on what you insist. You arent even interested when we give you evidence that doesnt even prove what we say

 

[Furion]

Sin is imaginary. A concept dreamt up to control underlings. Your words unconsciously reveal what Christianity is all about. It's prime purpose has been through the ages, to prevent Rebellion and Disobedience, by pretending that these are offences against God rather than the actual, human rulers. Homosexuality is irrelevant to human society. It's just part of the warf and weft of human beings living together. Stop obsessing over it and pick on something that actually is harmful. Over eating for example. Isn't gluttony a sin? Well clogging up both your arteries and hospital facilities through gluttony, digging your grave with your own teeth, as a lifestyle that really does damage both self and community. But for some reason you are more interested in the salacious "sins".

You are a fat shamer now?

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

I'm afraid not. Your assertions have no weight.

So you say.

Where have I said that you personally persecuted anyone, or demonstrably harmed anyone. The guilty flee when no man pursueth.

Perhaps your audience perceives the veiled personal references as more non-discreate and obvious where you think you've successfully hidden those.

I am content with the normal, accepted definition of civilised society, not your repressive, sex-obsessed, discriminatory and hypocritical dream world.

And I'm stating if you believe the society we have today fits an "accepted definition" of civilized society and you are somehow content, you truly have issues.

 

[Temujin]

Its not just us that says it, there is no concensus of scientific agreement on what you insist. You arent even interested when we give you evidence that doesnt even prove what we say

There's no scientific consensus around which precise genes are responsible for homosexuality. There's near universal agreement that there is a genetic component and that it is substantial. Identical twin studies demonstrate this, as do studies on very fecund women, who frequently have homosexual siblings, indicating a genetic link. Your suggestion that since there's no scientific consensus on the precise mechanism, the whole idea should be rejected, is just silly.

You have produced no evidence suggesting that homosexuality is not genetic,vin whole or in part. Nor have you produced anything to suggest that it is a choice .

 

[Temujin]

You are a fat shamer now?

Nope, just pointing out how silly it is to worry about homosexuality, when riskier behaviours are more common.

 

[Temujin]

So you say.

Perhaps your audience perceives the veiled personal references as more non-discreate and obvious where you think you've successfully hidden those.

And I'm stating if you believe the society we have today fits an "accepted definition" of civilized society and you are somehow content, you truly have issues.

It's you who have issues. I'm content, largely speaking. I certainly don't worry about the silly little bit things you are obsessed with.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

It's you who have issues. I'm content, largely speaking. I certainly don't worry about the silly little bit things you are obsessed with.

I do have issues. Issues with where this world has gone, particularly in the last decade and we see this gradual regressiveness that is now snowballing out of control with the advent and worship of humanism and atheism (Madalyn Murray O'Hare) in the early 60's and forward, over worshipping our God and Creator. So, yea, I have issues but I am honest about my opinions, irrespective of yours, and other liberals, push backs. Don't like my opinions? Walk away. Better yet, call me out, like Backup told me I needed to be, to force me to change my views...