Reformed Heresy

RCM

RCM

Active member
The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe"

Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement


Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"


John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"


1 John 3:8, "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."


1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."


Hebrews 2:14, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"


The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here! The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!


The New Testament Scriptures are consistent with the theology of the Old Testament

The 'Day of Atonement' offering was for the whole Nation of Israel

God had always been providing an atonement covering for the Gentile Nations through the Nation of Israel on the Feast of Tabernacles in that 70 bulls were offered for the 70 Gentile Nations (Numbers 29) until God sent His Son into the world - John 3:16-21



The Greek with the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29 is irrefutable!




RCM
 
RCM said:
The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe"

Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement
Click to expand...

First of all, I would suggest you approach the discussion with some modicum of charity, as this topic has been studied for centuries, if not (arguably) for millennia. Nobody is forcing you to accept Limited Atonement if you don't believe it to be Biblical, but there is valid reason to believe it.
Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.
The Shepherd lay down His life FOR THE SHEEP.
Christ gave Himself FOR THE CHURCH.

Btw, I see you are somewhat new here, having joined two days ago, although I seem to remember the nick "RCM", so maybe you aren't the new. Welcome anyway.

If you really want to study this issue (and not simply "yell" at us), I would recommend John Owen's "The Death of Death in the Death of Christ". Have you read it?

RCM said:
Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Click to expand...

Do you know what the CONTEXT of this verse is? I do, as I've studied it in great detail.
If you go back to Rom. 5:1, you will see that Paul at this point is NOT talking about everyone exhaustively, but only talking about believers, those who HAVE been justified, and who HAVE received the Holy Spirit. THAT is the context of "all men".

RCM said:
John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"
Click to expand...

This would require a discussion of what "world" means in this context.
Would it surprise you to learn that "kosmos" is NEVER used to mean, "Every single person without exception"?

RCM said:
1 John 3:8, "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."
Click to expand...

Um, okay....?
So what does this have to do with unlimited atonement?

RCM said:
1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."
Click to expand...

This would require a discussion of what "world" means in this context.
Would it surprise you to learn that "kosmos" is NEVER used to mean, "Every single person without exception"?

RCM said:
Hebrews 2:14, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"
Click to expand...

Um, okay....?
So what does this have to do with unlimited atonement?

RCM said:
The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here! The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!
Click to expand...

Actually, no it doesn't.
You haven't demonstrated how ANY of your "proof-texts" allegedly refutes Limited atonement, let alone any proof-texts which "label" it as "heresy".

You are aware, I hope, that Calvinists are aware of ALL of these verses? This is where a modicum of charity would be advantageous for you.

RCM said:
The New Testament Scriptures are consistent with the theology of the Old Testament
Click to expand...

You mean the theology where atonement was LIMITED to Israel?

RCM said:
The 'Day of Atonement' offering was for the whole Nation of Israel
Click to expand...

Was it for the Gentiles as well?
No, no, no it wasn't.

RCM said:
The Greek with the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29 is irrefutable!
Click to expand...

Then you are free to ignore my refutation, and pretend it doesn't exist.
 
there was a pass over of the Zebulunites therefore
..and only the Zebulunites
an application of pre held to TULzIP
 
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RCM said:
The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe"

Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement


Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"


John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"


1 John 3:8, "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."


1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."


Hebrews 2:14, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"


The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here! The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!


The New Testament Scriptures are consistent with the theology of the Old Testament

The 'Day of Atonement' offering was for the whole Nation of Israel

God had always been providing an atonement covering for the Gentile Nations through the Nation of Israel on the Feast of Tabernacles in that 70 bulls were offered for the 70 Gentile Nations (Numbers 29) until God sent His Son into the world - John 3:16-21



The Greek with the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29 is irrefutable!




RCM
Click to expand...
Wow, you refuted the entire thing with such humility, graciousness, and the word "the."

Yes your post is "irrefutable." ;)

Shall I add "PERIOD!!!" as well, that makes it sound even more "solider!"

Pardon my sarcasm friend, but you haven't accomplished what you've claimed. We are taking back the Victory trophy, and it doesn't have your name on the placard. ;)

Now, do tell; How in Christs propitiatory sacrifice are those who are etetrnally lost seated in the heavenlies in Him, in one of the things He completed in dying "for the sins of the whole world?"

Oh, and by the way, their sins were also paid* (*if what you say is true, that is) for as well in that work on the cross, via the Gospel: viz. The death, Burial, Resurrection, and all that it accomplished.

All of this is noted and laid out detail after detail in Scripture. All of this was accomplished and finished some 2000 years ago. Note Ephesians 2:4-10; Colossians 2:12-13. It is salvation accomplished, not potential.

So tell us how those who are and will be eternally lost were seated with Him, and forgiven, and made alive (regenerated) and buried, and raised, and by this grace were saved, as it says in the word in the things which He mightily accomplished.
 
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RCM said:
The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe"

Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement


Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"


John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"


1 John 3:8, "The one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil."


1 John 2:1-2, "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."


Hebrews 2:14, "Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil"


The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here! The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!


The New Testament Scriptures are consistent with the theology of the Old Testament

The 'Day of Atonement' offering was for the whole Nation of Israel

God had always been providing an atonement covering for the Gentile Nations through the Nation of Israel on the Feast of Tabernacles in that 70 bulls were offered for the 70 Gentile Nations (Numbers 29) until God sent His Son into the world - John 3:16-21



The Greek with the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29 is irrefutable!




RCM
Click to expand...
Is it your belief God never knew who would and wouldn't believe?
 
Theo1689 said:
First of all, I would suggest you approach the discussion with some modicum of charity, as this topic has been studied for centuries, if not (arguably) for millennia. Nobody is forcing you to accept Limited Atonement if you don't believe it to be Biblical, but there is valid reason to believe it.
Jesus came to save HIS PEOPLE from their sins.
The Shepherd lay down His life FOR THE SHEEP.
Christ gave Himself FOR THE CHURCH.
Click to expand...

Some more points to ponder, @RCM :

1) Since God is omniscient, then He knows everything that's going to happen, every decision that will be made, and who will end up saved and who won't. So if that's the case, why would He have the Son die to atone for the sins of the people who will never "accept" the atonement?

2) There are names written in the Lamb's book of Life from before the foundation of the world. I believe this to be the names of the elect, the names of those who will be saved, and only those who will be saved. If you have a different understanding of the book of Life, please share it. Nobody else is willing to answer this question. Why would the Son die for those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life?

3) In the atonement, the High Priest (who is Jesus) presents the sacrifice (Himself) to the Father. We sinners are not part of the transaction. It's not like Jesus gives us the sacrifice, and we decide whether to give it to the Father or not. And in ancient times, the High Priest didn't go around to each and every Jew and poll them to see if they wanted him to present on their behalf.

4) What did the atonement actually accomplish?
Did Jesus die for all the sins of all the people?
Did Jesus die for some of the sins of all the people?
Did Jesus die for all of the sins of some of the people?

Is unbelief a sin, and if so, did Jesus die for that sin?
If Jesus died for all the sins of all the people, then why is anyone unsaved? I think many who deny limited atonement actually deny the atonement, as they don't believe atonement was ever made, only "potential" atonement.
 
asking why would God bother? doesn't prove God would not bother
unbelief and belief are unique

is there any blotting out of the Lambs book of Life? names that were there at one time?
 
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Kosmos - the ordered world under Satan's authority

If you can't prove unlimited atonement, maybe it's unwise to be dogmatic on the issue?
Click to expand...
stop harassing me 5 pointer! :)
anyone might apply a pre-held Theolgy, it doesn't mean they are wrong when they do so
 
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does Kosmos stand in contrast to Kaos?
some think it does

instead of Kaos, we have an ordered Kosmos
but the ordered Kosmos is presently under Satan's authority

 
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RCM said:
The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe"

Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement
Click to expand...
Is that what the Reformers say?

It would have been helpful if you created a link and supported your accusation.

Reformers such as Ligoniers RC Sprouls tells us God didn't look down the corrider of time ...and then based upon something decided to save us or not save us.
The biblical doctrine of election is built on the foreknowledge of God, not on the fore-learning of God
 
RCM said:
Unfortunately, there is no Biblical Scripture that supports such a statement, however, there is Biblical Scripture that completely refutes such an erroneous statement
Click to expand...

A few more questions and comments, if I may...

1) "Scripture completely refutes such an erroneous statement". This sounds INCREDIBLY certain of you. Do you consider yourself infallible and inerrant, and that you cannot possibly be wrong about this? Is there a particular reason you can't limit your opposition to simply saying, "I disagree"? This seems to be where charity and humility can go a long way in discussion. Do you disagree?

2) May I ask where you got your list of "proof-texts"?
a) Did you get them from an "anti-Calvinist website"?
b) Did you get them by skimming through Scripture looking for "gotcha" verses?
Do you really believe that Calvinists haven't read and understood these verses (clearly differently than you do) hundreds of times in the past?

3) Do you know why Calvinists hold to Limited Atonement? Do you know all the passages in support of our doctrine, rather than just the verses that you seem to think disagree with it? It's not a cut-and-dry "slam-dunk" win for you. There are supports on both sides, and one must go through ALL the Biblical evidence, not just the "group of passages" that only tells one side of the story. To that end I will direct you to this thread:

  - TU<L>IP - Limited Atonement

Limited Atonement is admittedly one of the last "points" accepted by Reformed believers, so much so that there is an entire group of four-point (TU_IP) "Calvinists, called "Amyraldians", who follow the tradition of Moses Amyraut. But as even Arminians are fond of saying, the five points either...
forums.carm.org

4) What was your purpose or goal in starting this thread?
a) Was it simply to vent your frustrations because you hate the doctrine so much?
b) Was it to try to convince Calvinists to change their beliefs?
c) Was it to try to "poison the well" to prevent non-Calvinists from accepting it?

5) Do you think a more detailed study of all the relevant passages might be in order, such as
a) what "kosmos" means,
b) what the limiting qualifier of "all" is,
c) whether people are being mentioned in the scope of individuals or groups;
d) what the CONTEXT of each verse is?

For instance, regarding context, many anti-Calvinists quote 2 Pet. 3:9 ("not wishing any to perish") as evidence, but a closer study of the CONTEXT indicates that this passage is only referring to the "beloved" (v.8) and "us-ward" (v.9, KJV)

6) If Christ died for EVERYONE's sins, and there is anyone in hell paying for their own sins, then that is called, "double jeopardy" ,and makes God unjust. That's a problem.
 
RCM said:

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"
Theo1689 said:
Do you know what the CONTEXT of this verse is? I do, as I've studied it in great detail.
If you go back to Rom. 5:1, you will see that Paul at this point is NOT talking about everyone exhaustively, but only talking about believers, those who HAVE been justified, and who HAVE received the Holy Spirit. THAT is the context of "all men".
Click to expand...

Oh, really?

So, only those who have been justified had a problem with death?

Did you even look at the logic of your response?



RCM
 
RCM said:
RCM said:

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"

Oh, really?
Click to expand...

<sigh>
Yes, "really".

RCM said:
So, only those who have been justified had a problem with death?
Did you even look at the logic of your response?
Click to expand...

You really have an attitude problem, don't you?

Rom. 5 doesn't say "only those who have been justified had a problem with death".
And I didn't say that either.
So kindly lose the attitude.

Once again, Rom. 5:1-5 PROVE that Rom. 5 is ONLY about the justified, not about "everyone". This is irrefutable.

Rom. 3 tells us that EVERYONE sins, so EVERYONE "has a problem with death".
Rom. 5 is NOT about "everyone", it's only talking about the justified.

So yes, I HAVE "looked at the logic of my response".
And I'm the only one in this discussion paying attention to CONTEXT.
 
RCM said:

John 1:29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, "Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Theo1689 said:
This would require a discussion of what "world" means in this context.
Would it surprise you to learn that "kosmos" is NEVER used to mean, "Every single person without exception"?
Click to expand...


John 1:9-10, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."


John first uses the word 'kosmos' in verses 1:9-10

Please explain how the bolded reference to John's use of 'kosmos' does not mean every single person without exception?



RCM
 
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