Reformed Heresy

[preacher4truth]

RCM said:

Romans 5:12 "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"


Oh, really?

So, only those who have been justified had a problem with death?

Did you even look at the logic of your response?



RCM

Wow, talk about missing the point @Theo1689 made.

The text is written to believers concerning what God had particularly done for them. That is the audience. No one is denying that death has affected all mankind, creation &c.

Do you not comprehend what others state, or do you simply start banging your keyboard to respond before considering what was said? To be honest apparently both appear true.

And where is your answer to my response to your OP?

 

[Theo1689]

John 1:9-10, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."

John first uses the word 'kosmos' in verses 1:9-10

Please explain how the bolded reference to John's use of 'kosmos' does not mean every single person without exception?

Sorry, but you are simply ASSUMING that it DOES mean, "every single person without exception", and then fallaciously trying to shift the burden of proof to me to "prove" it doesn't mean that.

Why should I (or anyone) believe that it DOES mean "every single person without exception".

NO GREEK LEXICON on the face of the Earth defines it that way.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why does this seem all too familiar? Like playing "whack-a-mole?"

 

[RCM]

RCM said:

The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here! The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!

Actually, no it doesn't.
You haven't demonstrated how ANY of your "proof-texts" allegedly refutes Limited atonement, let alone any proof-texts which "label" it as "heresy".

You are aware, I hope, that Calvinists are aware of ALL of these verses? This is where a modicum of charity would be advantageous for you.

I noticed that you have no Biblical Scripture to refute Romans 5:12 and John 1:29

So, you are the one working off of opinion


RCM

 

[American Gothic]

no response on Kosmos vis a vis Kaos?

I appreciate the views of opponents here because I learn from them
and my church is "officially" cry baby "I just don't get Calvinism!" Arminian pfft!

 

[RCM]

Was it for the Gentiles as well?
No, no, no it wasn't.

Are you ignorant about the Feast of Tabernacles and God's provision for atonement covering for the Gentiles in Numbers 29?


RCM

 

[RCM]

Then you are free to ignore my refutation, and pretend it doesn't exist.

All you used was opinion

You provided no Biblical Scriptures to refute the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29



RCM

 

[RCM]

Wow, you refuted the entire thing with such humility, graciousness, and the word "the."

Yes your post is "irrefutable."

Shall I add "PERIOD!!!" as well, that makes it sound even more "solider!"

Pardon my sarcasm friend, but you haven't accomplished what you've claimed. We are taking back the Victory trophy, and it doesn't have your name on the placard.

Now, do tell; How in Christs propitiatory sacrifice are those who are etetrnally lost seated in the heavenlies in Him, in one of the things He completed in dying "for the sins of the whole world?"

Oh, and by the way, their sins were also paid* (*if what you say is true, that is) for as well in that work on the cross, via the Gospel: viz. The death, Burial, Resurrection, and all that it accomplished.

All of this is noted and laid out detail after detail in Scripture. All of this was accomplished and finished some 2000 years ago. Note Ephesians 2:4-10; Colossians 2:12-13. It is salvation accomplished, not potential.

So tell us how those who are and will be eternally lost were seated with Him, and forgiven, and made alive (regenerated) and buried, and raised, and by this grace were saved, as it says in the word in the things which He mightily accomplished.

You have posted nothing here that refutes Romans 5:12 and John 1:29


RCM

 

[preacher4truth]

You have posted nothing here that refutes Romans 5:12 and John 1:29


RCM

Lol! So, your dismissive remark does what exactly?

You haven't addressed my post, nor have you offered anything irrefutable in your OP. Being dismissive on your part offers zero answer and proves the same sum.

Now, kindly deal with my post and the texts therein and tell us all how they are incorrect.

 

[preacher4truth]

All you used was opinion

You provided no Biblical Scriptures to refute the definite article and 'sin' in the singular in Romans 5:12 and John 1:29



RCM

The use of the definite article fails to prove YOUR argument. No offense, but your OP is a fail.

 

[Theo1689]

RCM said:

The Law of Non-contradiction is in play here!

The "Law of Non-contradictions" refutes your idea that Christ atoned for "every single individual" and those in hell are paying for their own sins (a second time).

The Bible completely refutes the Reformed doctrine of 'Limited Atonement' as nothing but heresy!

Well, this is nothing more than your OPINION.

And millions of Christians (many of the Bible scholars and Greek scholars) DISAGREE with your OPINION.

I noticed that you have no Biblical Scripture to refute Romans 5:12 and John 1:29

Why would I need to "refute" Scripture, when it doesn't harm my view?
You are simply misinterpreting those passages, since you IGNORE the CONTEXT.

So, you are the one working off of opinion

Ironically, that TOO is nothing but your OPINION.
? ? ?

 

[RCM]

Is it your belief God never knew who would and wouldn't believe?

Do you believe that Jesus completely defeated sin, death, and the devil, or only partially?

Ephesians 1:19-23
Ephesians 1:19-23, "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


Colossians 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.




RCM

 

[RCM]

Some more points to ponder, @RCM :

1) Since God is omniscient, then He knows everything that's going to happen, every decision that will be made, and who will end up saved and who won't. So if that's the case, why would He have the Son die to atone for the sins of the people who will never "accept" the atonement?

2) There are names written in the Lamb's book of Life from before the foundation of the world. I believe this to be the names of the elect, the names of those who will be saved, and only those who will be saved. If you have a different understanding of the book of Life, please share it. Nobody else is willing to answer this question. Why would the Son die for those whose names aren't written in the Lamb's book of life?

3) In the atonement, the High Priest (who is Jesus) presents the sacrifice (Himself) to the Father. We sinners are not part of the transaction. It's not like Jesus gives us the sacrifice, and we decide whether to give it to the Father or not. And in ancient times, the High Priest didn't go around to each and every Jew and poll them to see if they wanted him to present on their behalf.

4) What did the atonement actually accomplish?
Did Jesus die for all the sins of all the people?
Did Jesus die for some of the sins of all the people?
Did Jesus die for all of the sins of some of the people?

Is unbelief a sin, and if so, did Jesus die for that sin?
If Jesus died for all the sins of all the people, then why is anyone unsaved? I think many who deny limited atonement actually deny the atonement, as they don't believe atonement was ever made, only "potential" atonement.

Do you believe that Jesus completely defeated sin, death, and the devil, or only partially?

Ephesians 1:19-23
Ephesians 1:19-23, "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.


Colossians 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.




RCM

 

[Theo1689]

Lol! So, your dismissive remark does what exactly?

You haven't addressed my post, nor have you offered anything irrefutable in your OP. Being dismissive on your part offers zero answer and proves the same sum.

Now, kindly deal with my post and the texts therein and tell us all how they are incorrect.

Yeah, I really fail to understand why they think their replies are the least bit useful or productive. Like I said, it seems more like they're trying to vent their frustration.

 

[RCM]

Is that what the Reformers say?

It would have been helpful if you created a link and supported your accusation.

Reformers such as Ligoniers RC Sprouls tells us God didn't look down the corrider of time ...and then based upon something decided to save us or not save us.
The biblical doctrine of election is built on the foreknowledge of God, not on the fore-learning of God

That statement was pulled right off of this board, posted and defended frequently

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I hold to a consistent Biblical Theology


RCM

 

[Theo1689]

Do you believe that Jesus completely defeated sin, death, and the devil, or only partially?

We believe every verse of Scripture.

We may not believe your (mis-)interpretation of Scriptures.

Ephesians 1:19-23
Ephesians 1:19-23, "and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

Explain to us how you think this in any way relates to whether the atonement was limited or not?

What do you think, "defeated death" means?

You seem to be assuming a GREAT DEAL of something not actually in the text.

Colossians 2:15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.

Amen!

 

[CrowCross]

That statement was pulled right off of this board, posted and defended frequently

I am neither Arminian nor Calvinist, I hold to a consistent Biblical Theology


RCM

What i did was post a link...

When you posted "The Reformed position on 'Limited Atonement' is, "Messiah's work was never intended for those whom God knew would never believe""...you didn't post a link.

 

[RCM]

A few more questions and comments, if I may...

1) "Scripture completely refutes such an erroneous statement". This sounds INCREDIBLY certain of you. Do you consider yourself infallible and inerrant, and that you cannot possibly be wrong about this? Is there a particular reason you can't limit your opposition to simply saying, "I disagree"? This seems to be where charity and humility can go a long way in discussion. Do you disagree?

2) May I ask where you got your list of "proof-texts"?
a) Did you get them from an "anti-Calvinist website"?
b) Did you get them by skimming through Scripture looking for "gotcha" verses?
Do you really believe that Calvinists haven't read and understood these verses (clearly differently than you do) hundreds of times in the past?

3) Do you know why Calvinists hold to Limited Atonement? Do you know all the passages in support of our doctrine, rather than just the verses that you seem to think disagree with it? It's not a cut-and-dry "slam-dunk" win for you. There are supports on both sides, and one must go through ALL the Biblical evidence, not just the "group of passages" that only tells one side of the story. To that end I will direct you to this thread:

  - TU<L>IP - Limited Atonement

Limited Atonement is admittedly one of the last "points" accepted by Reformed believers, so much so that there is an entire group of four-point (TU_IP) "Calvinists, called "Amyraldians", who follow the tradition of Moses Amyraut. But as even Arminians are fond of saying, the five points either...

forums.carm.org

4) What was your purpose or goal in starting this thread?
a) Was it simply to vent your frustrations because you hate the doctrine so much?
b) Was it to try to convince Calvinists to change their beliefs?
c) Was it to try to "poison the well" to prevent non-Calvinists from accepting it?

5) Do you think a more detailed study of all the relevant passages might be in order, such as
a) what "kosmos" means,
b) what the limiting qualifier of "all" is,
c) whether people are being mentioned in the scope of individuals or groups;
d) what the CONTEXT of each verse is?

For instance, regarding context, many anti-Calvinists quote 2 Pet. 3:9 ("not wishing any to perish") as evidence, but a closer study of the CONTEXT indicates that this passage is only referring to the "beloved" (v.8) and "us-ward" (v.9, KJV)

6) If Christ died for EVERYONE's sins, and there is anyone in hell paying for their own sins, then that is called, "double jeopardy" ,and makes God unjust. That's a problem.

I post nothing from another website

I do need to go to websites for my information

Now, please address the question I asked you,


John 1:9-10, "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him."


John first uses the word 'kosmos' in verses 1:9-10

Please explain how the bolded reference to John's use of 'kosmos' does not mean every single person without exception?




RCM

 

[RCM]

<sigh>
Yes, "really".



You really have an attitude problem, don't you?

Rom. 5 doesn't say "only those who have been justified had a problem with death".
And I didn't say that either.
So kindly lose the attitude.

Once again, Rom. 5:1-5 PROVE that Rom. 5 is ONLY about the justified, not about "everyone". This is irrefutable.

Rom. 3 tells us that EVERYONE sins, so EVERYONE "has a problem with death".
Rom. 5 is NOT about "everyone", it's only talking about the justified.

So yes, I HAVE "looked at the logic of my response".
And I'm the only one in this discussion paying attention to CONTEXT.

You said Romans 5:12 was interpreted by Romans 5:1, now you are wanting to pretend you didn't, go look at post #2

Romans 5:12 is explicit, "Therefore, just as through one man the sin entered into the world, and through the sin the death, and so the death spread to all men, because all sinned"



RCM

 

[RCM]

Wow, talk about missing the point @Theo1689 made.

The text is written to believers concerning what God had particularly done for them. That is the audience. No one is denying that death has affected all mankind, creation &c.

Do you not comprehend what others state, or do you simply start banging your keyboard to respond before considering what was said? To be honest apparently both appear true.

And where is your answer to my response to your OP?

I didn't miss anything, Romans 5:12 represents the same Biblical theology as stated in John 1:29

Theo attempted to confuse the issue


I will respond to you when you can provide Biblical Scripture that refutes John 1:29 and Romans 5:12



RCM