"having saved...afterward destroyed"

[squirrelyguy]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Universalism is a banned topic at CARM

 

[PeanutGallery]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

The only people saved out of Egypt were those who put the blood of the door; in that context, the atonement was limited.

 

[American Gothic]

The only people saved out of Egypt were those who put the blood of the door; in that context, the atonement was limited.

that might be 1/2 L point, not L point
I assume they all were told to and had the saving option available to them

there was a pass over of the Zebulunites...
and only the Zebulunites?

 

[PeanutGallery]

that might be 1/2 L point, not L point
I assume they all were told to and had the saving option available to them...

Just as the serpent on the pole, and Christ on the cross; "saving option available" to all, applied by those who believed.

 

[Howie]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

Salvation from the Egyptians is not equal to salvation from the penalty of sin.

You need to understand that. ^^^

 

[Howie]

The only people saved out of Egypt were those who put the blood of the door; in that context, the atonement was limited.

What?

 

[PeanutGallery]

What?

The only people saved out of Egypt were those who put the blood of the door posts; in that context, the atonement was limited.
Those who did not put the blood on the door posts were not saved out of Egypt.
Atonement limited to those who put blood on the door posts.

 

[ReverendRV]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

The answer is, when the Saving in this Verse doesn't mean they were Saved from their Sins...

 

[Slyzr]

The answer is, when the Saving in this Verse doesn't mean they were Saved from their Sins...

Paul?

Everyone is dead?

 

[His clay]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

Category distinction:
(1) delivered/saved from the hand of Pharaoh and slavery in Egypt
(2) delivered/saved from God's wrath due sin by the sacrifice of Christ the substitute

Simply understanding the difference solves the second question of the opening post.
Question one asks a question about the atonement (second category) by missing the context of the deliverance in the verse (first category). Conflating the two categories would be what is commonly known as a category error fallacy.

 

[David1701]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

They had all been saved physically (out of Egypt); but, only some were believers. Having been saved physically, from bondage in Egpyt, does not mean that they had all been saved from sin!

 

[David1701]

Just as the serpent on the pole, and Christ on the cross; "saving option available" to all, applied by those who believed.

Salvation is all of grace, not a mixture of grace and sinful man's will. In making the determining factor in salvation sinful man's will, you are denying the gospel - salvation by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is not of man who wills, nor of man who runs, but of God, who shows mercy to whom he will.

 

[preacher4truth]

"But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe." - Jude 1:5

Even if we don't interpret this to refer to losing salvation, at the very least it seems that we have to believe in a universal atonement, do we not? In what sense could a person be "saved" and then "destroyed" if Christ hasn't at least atoned for their sins?

The problem is in the foundation of your thinking. Each time you see "saved" you think "given eternal life." You're eisegeting your ideas into the text. Then it gets worse, perhaps not you, but when persons see the word "choose" in the OT they think this means receiving eternal life. It doesn't. Example? Joshua 24:15.

Furthermore Christ didn't make atonement for their sins, you're again, eisegeting things into the text that are not there. You're loking for texts to support your idea, instead of letting the text speak for itself and exegeting it from there.

"...some may seem as if they had the grace of God, and were brought out of spiritual Egypt, and enjoy great mercies and favours, and have many deliverances wrought for them, and yet at last perish." - John Gill

I highlighted the word "deliverances." This is the clue to understanding what "saved" out of Egypt means. Hint: "Saved" doesn't always mean given eternal life. If all of them were "saved" in that sense then all of them received eternal life.

The text doesn't support universal atonement. Universal atonement is a bankrupt system not based upon exegeted Scripture.

 

[LeeH]

Salvation is all of grace, not a mixture of grace and sinful man's will. In making the determining factor in salvation sinful man's will, you are denying the gospel - salvation by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is not of man who wills, nor of man who runs, but of God, who shows mercy to whom he will.

Deuteronomy 30:11-19

The Offer of Life or Death​

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

 

[preacher4truth]

Deuteronomy 30:11-19

The Offer of Life or Death​

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Oh, so salvation is by works and choosing. Or does the text mean something other than choosing ones self into eternal life?

Why yes, yes it does.

You know what Scripture says, but what it means escapes you.

Further than that, you're misusing Scripture by pitting it against other Scripture.

Terrible hermeneutic on your part.

 

[PeanutGallery]

Salvation is all of grace, not a mixture of grace and sinful man's will. In making the determining factor in salvation sinful man's will, you are denying the gospel - salvation by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is not of man who wills, nor of man who runs, but of God, who shows mercy to whom he will.

Yes, salvation is all of grace; all man can do is cry out for mercy.

 

[ReverendRV]

Deuteronomy 30:11-19

The Offer of Life or Death​

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

After Grace, right?

 

[LeeH]

Salvation is all of grace, not a mixture of grace and sinful man's will. In making the determining factor in salvation sinful man's will, you are denying the gospel - salvation by grace, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is not of man who wills, nor of man who runs, but of God, who shows mercy to whom he will.

Just in case you think I am pitting scripture against scripture, here is some more about man's ability to choose.

Joshua 24:15​

15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

 

[Howie]

Just in case you think I am pitting scripture against scripture, here is some more about man's ability to choose.

You are.

Joshua 24:15​

15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord.”

Your point?

Is speaking in tongues necessary for salvation, Lee?

 

[Howie]

Deuteronomy 30:11-19

The Offer of Life or Death​

11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.

17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.

19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

What did Israel choose, Lee?