The atonement is non-particular. But it is limited to those who have faith. But faith comes from the person since the atonement doesn't give faith. But if that's that kind of limited atonement you mean, then I believe it. Good job!
John 1:29
- Thread starter Reformedguy
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The atonement is non-particular. But it is limited to those who have faith. But faith comes from the person since the atonement doesn't give faith. But if that's that kind of limited atonement you mean, then I believe it. Good job!
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
Or limited by the acceptance thereof. Of course you couldn't accept that because of "I".
Now you are just being obtuse.
Limited atonement (also called definite atonement[1] or particular redemption) is a doctrine accepted in some Christian theological traditions. It is particularly associated with the Reformed tradition and is one of the five points of Calvinism. The doctrine states that though the death of Jesus Christ is sufficient to atone for the sins of the whole world,[2] it was the intention of God the Father that the atonement of Christ's death would work itself out in only the elect, thereby leading them without fail to salvation. According to Limited Atonement, Christ died for the sins of the elect alone, and no atonement was provided for the reprobate wikipedia
Atonement, Extent of. Although there are variations as to the basic ways in which this subject can be addressed, the choices boil down to two: the death of Jesus was intended to secure salvation either for a limited number or for everyone. The first view is sometimes called “limited atonement,” because God limited the effect of Christ’s death to a specific number of elect persons, or “particular redemption,” because redemption was for a particular group of people. The second view is sometimes referred to as “unlimited atonement” or “general redemption,” because God did not limit Christ’s redemptive death to the elect but allowed it to be for humankind in general
Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology: Second Edition (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic, 2001), 114–115.
The term unlimited atonement has to do with the extent, not the application of the atonement.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So limited then. Thank you.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
"but limited to those who have faith", limited then.
Not the extent
Christ died for all
1 Timothy 2:4–6
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 5:18
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned every one to his own way; And the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
1 Timothy 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
2 Corinthians 5:14–15
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.
John 11:51
And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
2 Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Exported from Logos Bible Software, 6:04 PM June 5, 2023.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
It's application is however as you said. That means it's limited.
Except we are not speaking of the application but the extent
Yes, limited by those who have faith. The atonement itself is non-particular.
RG is desperate to avoid the point at all costs
Reformedguy
Well-known member
I am speaking of both. You limit the application of the atonement. LIMITED ATONEMENT
Bob Carabbio
Well-known member
The Calvie, of course, does it ARBITRARILY (U). God made some "ELECT" (L) who WILL become Christians (I), and will PERSEVERE until death (P), and they never had any choice about any of it.
And by the same token, arbitrarily (U) HE made firewood who were only born to burn, and never had any choice in the matter.
OF course, neither Evangelists, nor the people themselves have any idea who's "Elect" and who's "Firewood". Consequently they have to relate to ALL people as "Potentially Elect" (unless one is a hard-line "Sovereign Gracer" that doesn't bother evangelizing at all, since there's no need for it).
Yes, but non-particular.
No, you are equivocating
The issue is the extent of the atonement, and you keep trying to throw in the application of it to define what a limited atonement is, in a discussion of whether the atonement is limited or unlimited
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Maybe I am. Fact is you believe in a limited atonement. Bottom line.
More equivocation
I believe in an unlimited atonement that is an unlimited extent of the atonement
Reformedguy
Well-known member
You also believe in limited application. Hence LIMITED ATONEMENT
Non-particular. Limited by the people. But you believe in universalism of the atoned. So you believe in Universalism.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
So limited then in some way.
Sorry, that is a deception.
The issue in view is the extent of the atonement.
According to scripture, it is unlimited.