My Genesis Challenge

[Tiburon]

That was a joke, Tiburon.

Go back and read what I said slowly.

Read it slowly, read it quickly.
It wasn't funny.

 

[Tiburon]

satan is the one who lied.
Adam and Eve did die even though satan said they wouldn't.

Satan wasn't there. He said nothing.

 

[Lion IRC]

Yes, he was there.

 

[Tiburon]

There was no belief he was omniscient back then. Remember, this is the God who could not find Adam and Eve when they hid from him.

Gen 3:8 Now they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden. 9 Then the Lord God called to the man, and said to him, “Where are you?”​

He was pretending. Like you do with kids when you play hide and seek.
How did God 'walk' in the garden? Is he really a big old man with a beard even though Christians try to tell us that's not what they believe?

 

[AV1611VET]

Took stuff out of the trash?
I don't really care what your pastor thinks. He has no more insight into what will happen to us after death than anyone else.

It's a free country, and you're entitled to your belief.

 

[AV1611VET]

He was pretending. Like you do with kids when you play hide and seek.

Mind if I fill in the blanks as well?

Like God telling Adam that He would hold him responsible for his actions, should he choose to eat of the forbidden fruit?

And why He would hold him responsible?

 

[Tiburon]

Mind if I fill in the blanks as well?

Like God telling Adam that He would hold him responsible for his actions, should he choose to eat of the forbidden fruit?

And why He would hold him responsible?

Are you saying God was pretending when he said those things?

 

[5wize]

Well, it was only one day....and there was another source of light at that time. Did you forget about that??? Let there be light???

Yeah... so why the Sun then? You just stepped in another pile of God-doo.

 

[5wize]

I cant see any contraction at all. *shrug*

Why can't satan say to David...go and do that thing God instructed you to do ?

Because the verbs are moved and provoked, not go, do or instructed. You writing your own scripture? The Book of St. Lion?

 

[5wize]

Well, I don't think the average Christian is going to accept your proposition that God got it wrong or deliberately lied to Eve about what would happen and when.

Like I said, the definition of 'day' (yom) isn't a 24 hour slam dunk. Neither is the text coercive wrt whether or not you begin to die commencing from when eat and eventually die thereafter.

Yes it is a 24 hr period. Light on day 1 separated night from day. The sun was merely placed in that paradigm. It was never stated that the Sun changed day from night, just that it was the lord of the day already created, the day we currently experience, the day created on day one. Unless again you are writing your own book.

Adam was already going to eventually die. He wasn't created immortal.

 

[5wize]

On the other hand, calling it a "contradiction," or saying, "God lied" to Adam isn't the way to handle it, either.

As I have pointed out:

1. God punished Adam for eating the forbidden fruit, and Adam accepted that punishment.
2. Within the context of Adam's punishment, God made it clear Adam would live to see another day.
3. Within the context of Eve's punishment, God made it clear she would be bearing children in the future.

These are not words indicative of someone who is about to die physically before the day ends.

Thus a mature Bible student would know that there must be more to the story than meets the eye, and would look for another meaning later on in the Scriptures.

And sure enough, he eventually learns that man is a tripartite (three parts in one) human being, consisting of body, soul, and spirit.

And we also read later that, of the three, it's the spirit that died first -- then the body followed later.

Or @Tiburon is simply correct in 2 distinct ways when he stated:

1. My contention is that Genesis 1 & 2 are from separate oral traditions that were woven together when the Bible was written down.
2. My contention is that you are probably going to come up with some cobbled together excuse. Any mention of 'Spiritual' death will be greeted with the contempt it deserves.

He seems to be correct on both counts when you read your strained apologetic. Was it prophecy?

 

[5wize]

I'm not as quick to label something a myth.

I'll run it through basic doctrine, context, compare spiritual with spiritual, line upon line, precept upon precept first.

Consult study helps and so on.

Then, if I'm still not satisfied, I'll consider it a paradox and employ paradox resolution, if I can.

And for all that, there's ONE that I consider very close to being a true contradiction; but I'm sure I'm missing something simple.

LoL!!!! Sounds a lot like academia to me.

 

[5wize]

That was a joke, Tiburon.

Go back and read what I said slowly.

Go back and read the verse slowly. Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.?

You haven't explained away these direct words. You are claiming they just aren't there.

 

[Beloved Daughter]

Took stuff out of the trash?
I don't really care what your pastor thinks. He has no more insight into what will happen to us after death than anyone else.

Nor do you. Did I miss the part about your having a graduate degree in textual criticism?
Which hermeneutic do you use?

Why are there two different Creation accounts in Genesis chapters 1-2? | GotQuestions.org

Why are there two different Creation accounts in Genesis chapters 1-2? Are there contradictions between Genesis chapters 1 and 2?

www.gotquestions.org

Genesis 1:1 says, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” Later, in Genesis 2:4, it seems that a second, different story of creation begins. The idea of two differing creation accounts is a common misinterpretation of these two passages which, in fact, describe the same creation event. They do not disagree as to the order in which things were created and do not contradict one another. Genesis 1 describes the “six days of creation” (and a seventh day of rest), Genesis 2 covers only one day of that creation week—the sixth day—and there is no contradiction.

In Genesis 2, the author steps back in the temporal sequence to the sixth day, when God made man. In the first chapter, the author of Genesis presents the creation of man on the sixth day as the culmination or high point of creation. Then, in the second chapter, the author gives greater detail regarding the creation of man.

There are two primary claims of contradictions between Genesis chapters 1-2. The first is in regard to plant life. Genesis 1:11 records God creating vegetation on the third day. Genesis 2:5 states that prior to the creation of man “no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the LORD God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground.” So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict. Genesis 1:11 speaks of God creating vegetation, and Genesis 2:5 speaks of God not causing “farmable” vegetation to grow until after He created man.

The second claimed contradiction is in regard to animal life. Genesis 1:24-25 records God creating animal life on the sixth day, before He created man. Genesis 2:19, in some translations, seems to record God creating the animals after He had created man. However, a good and plausible translation of Genesis 2:19-20 reads, “Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them, and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.” The text does not say that God created man, then created the animals, and then brought the animals to the man. Rather, the text says, “Now the LORD God had [already] created all the animals.” There is no contradiction. On the sixth day, God created the animals, then created man, and then brought the animals to the man, allowing the man to name the animals.

By considering the two creation accounts individually and then reconciling them, we see that God describes the sequence of creation in Genesis 1, then clarifies its most important details, especially of the sixth day, in Genesis 2. There is no contradiction here, merely a common literary device describing an event from the general to the specific.

 

[The Pixie]

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.

QV for an explanation of this paradox:

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Although Satan did it, God let him, and was willing to take the credit.

When the texts were written, the satan was an angel appointed by God to do God's work.

Once you understand that, there is no contradiction. One says God did, but omits that he did it via an agent; the other says God's agent did it.

 

[The Pixie]

Biologos isn't a Christian site. They can't even explain how mankind got their sin nature.

From the web site:

Science and Faith. Working Hand in Hand.​

BioLogos explores God’s Word and God’s World to inspire authentic faith for today.​

What you mean is that they disagree with your brand of Christianity, but they are, nevertheless, Christian.

Genesis 2 focus is on day 6. Then again you already knew that....biologos, well, not so much.

So on day six:

Genesis 2:5 Now no shrub of the field was yet on the earth, and no plant of the field had yet sprouted, for the Lord God had not sent rain upon the earth, and there was no man to [d]cultivate the ground.​

Can you explain why there were no plants at the start of day six, when God had created them back on day three?

There are several ways to look at this....did you ever cut a flower? Once you cut it from the plant it will die. It may take several days, but, it will die. Adam and Eve were in a similiar situation likened to the flower cut from the plant.

God told them they would die that day. They did not die that day.

Your flower analogy fails because even if God gave them a terminal illness that would kill them several hundred years later, they did not die that day.

There is also spiritual death that did occur that day.

It does not say spiritual death. It says they would die that day.

Some even say they were spared death when the innocent animal was killed to make garments from its skin to cover their nakedness.

The most likely scenario is the author believed God changed his mind, and it is plausible this contributed to that, so this is the best so far. But even then, you still have God saying they would die that day, and them not dying that day.

But of course, you have the only correct interpretation.

Thanks.

Have you never heard of a rhetorical question?

The text says they hid from God, not that they tried to hide from God. If they hid from God, then they were hidden from him.

 

[Base12]

So, which is it? Did God create vegetation on the third day before He created man (Genesis 1), or after He created man (Genesis 2)? The Hebrew words for “vegetation” are different in the two passages. Genesis 1:11 uses a term that refers to vegetation in general. Genesis 2:5 uses a more specific term that refers to vegetation that requires agriculture, i.e., a person to tend it, a gardener. The passages do not contradict.

That was a good attempt at resolving the alleged contradiction, unfortunately your solution still violates Scripture...

Genesis 2:4
"These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"

Day means day, as in twenty-four hours or less. Genesis 2:4 quoted above places us on the Third Day. That is the context by which everything else hinges on. Thus, we are in the moment BEFORE plants, or ANY Life Form for that matter, was created.

God then proceeds to create the First Adam... on the Third Day.

 

[Eightcrackers]

Have you never heard of a rhetorical question?

Yes.

Have you ever heard of ad hoc?

 

[Eightcrackers]

If Adam would have died physically that day, would we be having this conversation?

No.

It does not follow that Yahweh did NOT mean "die physically" unless you begin with the assumption that Yahweh told the truth.

 

[Base12]

@AV1611VET

I can offer you a solution to the Gen1 Gen2 alleged 'contradictions', however it requires believing EXACTLY what the KJV says. In other words, NO changing of words to mean something else.

I.E...

• Day means Day (not a thousand years, etc.).
• Surely Die means Surely Die (not 'Spiritually Died')

When One follows the two rules above, all will be made plain. Unfortunately, most Christians can not handle the resulting Truth. As a consequence, we have these never ending discussions that fall short of the Mark.

I will get the ball rolling...

Genesis 3:6
"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."

OK, great. So what happened? Weren't they supposed to die?

YES!

Adam and his Wife DIED at that very moment. And no, it was not a so called 'Spiritual Death' (whatever that means). It was not 'a thousand year long day'. The Couple did not 'begin to die'. Etc.

THEY DIED. PERIOD.

Did God lie? Of course not.

Now, continuing with the plain literal reading of the text, the next step is to interpret the rest of the verses of Genesis 1, 2 and 3 without bias!

Here is a good place to start...

Q: What did Adam call his Wife before partaking of the Forbidden Fruit?
A: It was not 'Eve'.