Why I am not a Arminian (Anymore)

Quote snipped.

So you say. But you are demonstrably wrong. Salvation is of the Lord completely.

John 6:37-39English Standard Version (ESV)

37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

John 6:44English Standard Version (ESV)

44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

all dealing with the time Christ was on the earth and he was given men to become his disciples to carry his message after Christ's departure

Further men were draw by

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

hearing and learning from the father

after the cross

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

and the gospel, was to go to, asll men

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Romans 9:14-24English Standard Version (ESV)

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion,[a] but on God, who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Paul interlocuter is a hardened Jew

that God is not abitararily selecting and rejecting men is seen in the context

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 11:20-23 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

it was there own la sck of faith which caused them to be curttoff and they could be grafted back in if they remained not in unbelief

Romans does not support yoiur belief


Ephesians 1:3-11English Standard Version (ESV)

Spiritual Blessings in Christ


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us[a] for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[b] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,
The us is believers. That is who is being addressed

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

and they were chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless

not to be in Christ

and a man is in Christ when he believes

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,







Romans 8:28-30English Standard Version (ESV)

28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good,[a] for those who are called according to his purpose. 29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

This is a promise to those who loved God and were called according to his purpose

These are men who God knew in the past who were called, justified, and gloried

they died and were glorified

This is not a passage about unconditional election

Ephesians 2:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Salvation is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

nothing there about faith being the gift

Acts 13:48English Standard Version (ESV)

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

No statement here about on what basis they were appointed or disposed to eternal life

Was it based on foreseen faith

or the promise of God toward those who love him the text does not state

You have to assume your view to posit your theology

Colossians 2:13English Standard Version (ESV)

13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

That refutes you

You will notice quickening is preceded by having your sins forgiven

well before your sins are forgiven you need to repent and believe
 
pt2


Titus 3:5English Standard Version (ESV)

5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Yes it was through mercy he saved us but notive regeneration is givenas the mechanism of salvation

but salvation is by grace through faith

that verse does not help you at all

1 Peter 1:3English Standard Version (ESV)

Born Again to a Living Hope


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
We are born again through the gospel

1 Peter 1:23 (ESV)
23 since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God;

faith in the gospel for unbelief does not save

Hebrews 4:2 (ESV)
2 For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened.






2 Timothy 2:25English Standard Version (ESV)

25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,
Yes God grants repentance by the word of repentance

Just like he did with Cornelius

when he believed and received the Holy spirut the jes concluded he was granted repentance untom life

to grant is to enable, permit or allow




Ezekiel 36:25-26English Standard Version (ESV)

25 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.

Nothing there about unbelievers having God put his Spirit inthem to cause them to believe

A fulfillment of that may be seen here

Acts 2:38 (ESV)

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.


Deuteronomy 30:6English Standard Version (ESV)

6 And the Lord your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your offspring, so that you will love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul, that you may live.


Salvation is completely of the Lord.
Yes salvation is of the lord

but faith and salvation are not the same thing

and that particular promise was made to repentant Israelites

you should have checked context
 
all dealing with the time Christ was on the earth and he was given men to become his disciples to carry his message after Christ's departure

Further men were draw by

John 6:45 (KJV)
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

hearing and learning from the father

after the cross

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

and the gospel, was to go to, asll men

Mark 16:15 (KJV)
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.



Paul interlocuter is a hardened Jew

that God is not abitararily selecting and rejecting men is seen in the context

Romans 9:30-32 (KJV)
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Romans 11:20-23 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

it was there own la sck of faith which caused them to be curttoff and they could be grafted back in if they remained not in unbelief

Romans does not support yoiur belief



The us is believers. That is who is being addressed

Ephesians 1:1 (ESV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are in Ephesus, and are faithful in Christ Jesus:

and they were chosen in Christ to be holy and blameless

not to be in Christ

and a man is in Christ when he believes

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,









This is a promise to those who loved God and were called according to his purpose

These are men who God knew in the past who were called, justified, and gloried

they died and were glorified

This is not a passage about unconditional election



Salvation is the gift of God

Romans 6:23 (ESV)
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

nothing there about faith being the gift



No statement here about on what basis they were appointed or disposed to eternal life

Was it based on foreseen faith

or the promise of God toward those who love him the text does not state

You have to assume your view to posit your theology



That refutes you

You will notice quickening is preceded by having your sins forgiven

well before your sins are forgiven you need to repent and believe

You wish it refutes me. It doesn't.

Yes, the 'us' is believers.

The same people that were chosen before the foundation of the world. You can delete it all you want, but that is what scripture says.

Jesus said only those people who were drawn by God would be saved.

Deny, deny, deny.

I don't assume anything. I read what scripture actually says. To the Disciples: "you did not choose me, I chose you."

The rest is just you trying to have the last word. You are the person who has been refuted. I'm quite sure that almost all posters support the biblical view.

Have your last word, and I will have the scriptures.
 
You wish it refutes me. It doesn't.

Yes, the 'us' is believers.

The same people that were chosen before the foundation of the world. You can delete it all you want, but that is what scripture says.

Jesus said only those people who were drawn by God would be saved.

Deny, deny, deny.

I don't assume anything. I read what scripture actually says. To the Disciples: "you did not choose me, I chose you."

The rest is just you trying to have the last word. You are the person who has been refuted. I'm quite sure that almost all posters support the biblical view.

Have your last word, and I will have the scriptures.
You don't have the scripture

regarding what I stated refuted you

Colossians 2:13 (ESV)
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

you did not address my argument at all

Regeneration is preceded by forgiveness of sin

sin is not forgiven until one repents and believes as the bible teaches

You left it untouched


as for Eph 1

the us are believers

You did not exist before the foundation of the earth to be in Christ

All blessing were to be in Christ

Ephesians 1:3 (ESV)
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,

verse 4 concerns believers who are blessed in Christ

and you were not in Christ until you believed

Ephesians 1:13 (ESV)
13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Before the foundation of the earth God determined believers would be presented before him holy and blameless in love

There was no chosen to saved

Not chosen to be in Christ

and regarding the context of John 6 and who is given

John 17 identifies the given as the Apostles

John 6:66-71 identified the given who were left after many of his disciples departed from him

Again The 12

While he was on earth God was giving to Christ from those that were his (John 17 again)

not men unconditionally chosen

Christ mission on earth aside from the crucifixion was to gather men who would carry the gospel into the world after his departure

those chosen the apostles again

You are not an apostle

no one outside of the 12 and Paul is an apostle

and after the cross

John 12:32 (KJV)
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.


'
 
The verse says nothing about an inability to believe
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Still says nothing at all about regeneration preceding faith

read the rest if the chapter

John 3:14-16 (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

regeneration imparts life that is eternal in duration

faith is required
 
Still says nothing at all about regeneration preceding faith
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Nothing has changed . The verse did not prove regeneration comes before faith before and it does not do so now

One must believe before one can receive life

John 5:40



“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”



coming to Jesus through faith precedes life







John 20:31



“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”



Scripture clearly places faith before life








John 1:12



“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.






Galatians 3:26



“You are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”



becoming a child being born of God is obviously preceded by faith.




John 12:36



“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”



Christ is the light you want to be his child you must first believe






Colossians 2:12



“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”



Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection it is through faith
 
Nothing has changed . The verse did not prove regeneration comes before faith before and it does not do so now

One must believe before one can receive life
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
 
5 Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
repeating the same thing does not change the facts

and you just ignore what scripture showed

Nicodemus asks how these things can be

Christ told him

John 3:14-16 (ESV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

you must believe first

as was noted elsewhere


One must believe before one can receive life

John 5:40



“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”



coming to Jesus through faith precedes life







John 20:31



“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”



Scripture clearly places faith before life








John 1:12



“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.






Galatians 3:26



“You are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”



becoming a child being born of God is obviously preceded by faith.




John 12:36



“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”



Christ is the light you want to be his child you must first believe






Colossians 2:12



“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”



Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection it is through faith
 
Nothing has changed . The verse did not prove regeneration comes before faith before and it does not do so now

One must believe before one can receive life

John 5:40



“yet you refuse to COME TO ME TO HAVE LIFE.”



coming to Jesus through faith precedes life







John 20:31



“But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”



Scripture clearly places faith before life








John 1:12



“Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.



The right to be born of God is given only to those who believe.






Galatians 3:26



“You are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus…”



becoming a child being born of God is obviously preceded by faith.



John 12:36



“Believe in the light while you have the light, so that you may become children of light.”



Christ is the light you want to be his child you must first believe






Colossians 2:12



“…having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.”



Regeneration is a spiritual resurrection it is through faith
Bump @Manfred
 
what version is that? the NASV does not have "the Son of man who is in Heaven"
And who cares about your pet version that you pick when its convenient ?

my view below is the orthodox and historical position from the N.T. ECF's and the church throughout history.


and they say ignorance is bliss.

did you say you have been studying the bible for over 50 years in DEPTH ? is that correct ?

and you are questioning John 3:13 and claiming I'm adding words to the bible ?

another one of your MANY false claims and personal attacks.

The Son of man who is in heaven- while on earth.

The renown ARMINIAN Scholar and Theologian Adam Clarke below

Which is in heaven - Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but He who fills the heavens and the earth.

John 3:13 below from various translations

King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

New King James Version
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And no man has gone up to Heaven except he who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - he who is in Heaven

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

English Revised Version

And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.


International Standard Version
"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Literal Standard Version
And no one has gone up to Heaven, except He who came down out of Heaven—the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

World English Bible
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

Young's Literal Translation
and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


conclusion: get thee behind me
 
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And who cares about your pet version that you pick when its convenient ?

my view below is the orthodox and historical position from the N.T. ECF's and the church throughout history.


and they say ignorance is bliss.

did you say you have been studying the bible for over 50 years in DEPTH ? is that correct ?

and you are questioning John 3:13 and claiming I'm adding words to the bible ?

another one of your MANY false claims and personal attacks.

The Son of man who is in heaven- while on earth.

The renown ARMINIAN Scholar and Theologian Adam Clarke below

Which is in heaven - Lest a wrong meaning should be taken from the foregoing expression, and it should be imagined that, in order to manifest himself upon earth he must necessarily leave heaven; our blessed Lord qualifies it by adding, the Son of man who is in heaven; pointing out, by this, the ubiquity or omnipresence of his nature: a character essentially belonging to God; for no being can possibly exist in more places than one at a time, but He who fills the heavens and the earth.

John 3:13 below from various translations

King James Bible
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

New King James Version
No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

American Standard Version
And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And no man has gone up to Heaven except he who went down from Heaven: The Son of Man - he who is in Heaven

Douay-Rheims Bible
And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man who is in heaven.

English Revised Version

And no man hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, which is in heaven.


International Standard Version
"No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

Literal Standard Version
And no one has gone up to Heaven, except He who came down out of Heaven—the Son of Man who is in Heaven.

World English Bible
No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended out of heaven, the Son of Man, who is in heaven.

Young's Literal Translation
and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.


conclusion: get thee behind me
Ah, this must be one of the differences between the two main Greek texts.
It is in the KJV but not in the NASB.

As I look at the KJV translation and the Youngs, I think you are misunderstanding what jesus means.
Look at His idea that no one hs gone up to heaven except the Son who is in heaven
At this point in His earthly ministry, Jesus has not yet returned to heaven. We know that takes place at the ascension.
So the understanding of "who is in Heaven" is tied to understanding why the words seem to say he has already ascended.
 
Ah, this must be one of the differences between the two main Greek texts.
It is in the KJV but not in the NASB.

As I look at the KJV translation and the Youngs, I think you are misunderstanding what jesus means.
Look at His idea that no one hs gone up to heaven except the Son who is in heaven
At this point in His earthly ministry, Jesus has not yet returned to heaven. We know that takes place at the ascension.
So the understanding of "who is in Heaven" is tied to understanding why the words seem to say he has already ascended.
My view is the biblical and historical view of the church throughout history.

You really need to study history and the bible more often.

I have never met a serious bible student who didn't know John 3:13 like you.

Thangs dat make u go hmmmmmmmmmm
 
BTW @Sethproton owes me an apology for falsely accusing me of adding "my own words" to scripture.

If not then its just as fair for me to say you are taking away Jesus words in John 3:13.
 
BTW @Sethproton owes me an apology for falsely accusing me of adding "my own words" to scripture.

If not then its just as fair for me to say you are taking away Jesus words in John 3:13.
yes, you are owed an apology. Of course since you were aware of the difference bewteen the NASB and the KJV it would have been simpler to just state that instead of calling me names.
 
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