Anti-Gospel Wolves Accursed by Paul

Since there are different views is all the more reason we should study the scriptures on this. Personally, I believe it is obvious Jesus suffered God’s wrath in our place. I believe scripture teaches it throughout. And there are times when these debates really cloud up some very obvious points, and make it difficult to reason out such simple things.
Sometimes we reach for the stars so to speak. It’s as if we have to figure out the Trinity or the HU in order to prove PSA one way or another.
And that’s where we start to reason out the simple truth in the word in the mysteries, sadly. As there will always be mysteries with the Almighty.
There is not a man alive that can understand and explain the Trinity or the HU, though we could have a fair understanding.
Yet, from those doctrines, we try to reason out the PSA.

I believe the gospel is simple, so simple that a young child can understand it. He or she does not have to be dragged through the doctrine of the Trinity or the HU to understand and believe what Christ went through and had to endure for our salvation. It they had to be brought through those doctrines before they could understand “the simple gospel” they would be just as, if not more confused as many of us adults are that take that route before they can reason out the gospel.
This is the gospel

1 Corinthians 15:1-11 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

PSA is not a part of it
 
Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Like St. Augustine once said, you are always curved inward, instead of upward! Are they believers through Faith and declared righteous or righteous through works?
They seemed to have hope.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

MANY were made sinners, not ALL. There was a long discussion about this, you should check it out and offer your thoughts.
You really need to read your Bible and provide all that it says, and not just what suits you. Romans 5:18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men. Romans 3:10 “None is righteous, no, not one. Romans 5:12 death spread to all men because all sinned. Your full blown Legalistic Pelagian view is exposed!
"Perfect obedience and righteousness" is not the same as "dont sin, ever". Perfect obedience and righteousness in the law is "dont sin, but if you do, here is how to atone for it".
No Sir, God will not lower His standard of Holiness to let us in! Again Sir you really need to not only read the Bible, but study it day & night, because you obviously need to. Matt. 5: 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt. 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Allow me to help you here, these passages are Law passages, imperatives (commands). They are meant to strip you of trying to obtain Redemption through the Law! Because no one will be justified through the Law (Galatians 2:16). Law passages or preaching is meant to drive sinners to the ONLY hope for Redemption, the Gospel, naming Christ Jesus and what he has done for sinners! And this is given freely (indicative) or promises, and is received through Faith Alone apart from any works of the Law! Do your homework.
Following the requirements of the law is how Zacharias and Elisabeth are said to be righteous before God. That does not mean they never sinned, it means that when they did sin, they did those things according to the law to maintain a good standing before God.
No sir, read your Bible again:

Justified by Faith

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

So now you have a contradiction. We do not, because Paul makes crystal clear that no one will be justified (righteous) by the works of the Law! Again I will help you, how then can a sinner be justified before a Holy God? This is the question you should be asking yourself.
There is an unhealthy obsession with the curse of the law,
I beg to differ, this is precisely the issue at hand. It's not being heard, read or preached enough! Here's why Law & Gospel must be preached together! If not, then why would anyone need a Savior? To be saved from what? This is exactly why the Anti-PSA/Imputation camp do not understand the severity of sin or the Glorious good news of the Gospel!


Deut 27:26 Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen.

You just proved in Ezekiel 36 that we are left with the blessing....

Ez 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Now that we are walking in His statutes and keeping His judgements, what does that leave us with?

Deut 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day:

See how that works? The ordinances that were written against us are blotted out. We are left with the ordinances written for us.


I will be their God and they shall be my people is a blessing from the first covenant (Ex 29:45), that was not written against them, so it remains a feature of the new covenant. Not only that, but it is part of the covenant God made with Abraham (Gen 17:7-8). Forgiveness and not remembering iniquity is also a carryover from the first covenant.

Amen. He blotted out those things written against us, and left us with those things written for us. You obsess over half the equation.

You said this already and I responded.
Sorry I can't read anymore.

Know what you believe and why you believe it!
 
Like St. Augustine once said, you are always curved inward, instead of upward! Are they believers through Faith and declared righteous or righteous through works?
You are slightly moving the goalposts. You initially said there is no hope for sinners under the law, but the bible clearly shoots that notion down at Luke 1:6. They were under the law and righteous in the sight of God. I never made a faith vs works argument, only that the bible proves there is in fact hope for sinners under the law.
You really need to read your Bible and provide all that it says, and not just what suits you. Romans 5:18Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men. Romans 3:10 “None is righteous, no, not one. Romans 5:12 death spread to all men because all sinned. Your full blown Legalistic Pelagian view is exposed!
Despite the name calling, the bible still says that MANY were made sinners (Rom 5:19), and you claimed that ALL were made sinners. I dont personally feel like rehashing that entire debate, but the bible is clear that MANY were made sinners, and ALL (of them) have sinned. You play games with the written word, and read it as it suits you.
No Sir, God will not lower His standard of Holiness to let us in! Again Sir you really need to not only read the Bible, but study it day & night, because you obviously need to. Matt. 5: 48You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
He doesnt mean PERFECT as in "perfectly sinless", but rather speaks to a completion, or maturity. I have learned over the years that the ones screaming "you need to read" are in fact the ones that need to read. Anyone telling you that they are perfect and sinless is lying.
Matt. 5:20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
LOL Jesus set the bar pretty low there.
Allow me to help you here, these passages are Law passages, imperatives (commands). They are meant to strip you of trying to obtain Redemption through the Law! Because no one will be justified through the Law (Galatians 2:16).
You changed the words. No one is justified through THE WORKS of the Law, but faith in Christ. That means that Luke 1:6 justification has passed, not that the law never justified in the first place.
Law passages or preaching is meant to drive sinners to the ONLY hope for Redemption, the Gospel, naming Christ Jesus and what he has done for sinners! And this is given freely (indicative) or promises, and is received through Faith Alone apart from any works of the Law! Do your homework.

No sir, read your Bible again:

Justified by Faith

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

So now you have a contradiction. We do not, because Paul makes crystal clear that no one will be justified (righteous) by the works of the Law! Again I will help you, how then can a sinner be justified before a Holy God? This is the question you should be asking yourself.
LOL Luke 1:6 really has you tied up in knots! You have a contradiction because you are changing Pauls argument. A sinner can be justified before a Holy God by doing those things commanded in the Holy Law for their justification. Like Zacharias and Elisabeth.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You're kinda talking over Paul, when you really need to get out of the way and let him speak. He went on to clarify exactly which Jew would be justified, and why:

Romasn 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

So there WAS, in fact, justification and righteousness in doing the works of the law, depending on how you did it. That all came to an end with Jesus (Rom 10:4), and THAT is what Paul is talking about in Galatians. You rip his words to shreds and claim that he taught there was NEVER any justification or righteousness in the law. That is false. He said there is none NOW that Jesus has died and risen.

I beg to differ, this is precisely the issue at hand. It's not being heard, read or preached enough! Here's why Law & Gospel must be preached together! If not, then why would anyone need a Savior? To be saved from what? This is exactly why the Anti-PSA/Imputation camp do not understand the severity of sin or the Glorious good news of the Gospel!
I thought PSA was relatively new doctrine? Wasnt the Gospel doing fine before PSA came along?
Sorry I can't read anymore.

Know what you believe and why you believe it!
Ok thanks for your time
 
You are slightly moving the goalposts. You initially said there is no hope for sinners under the law, but the bible clearly shoots that notion down at Luke 1:6. They were under the law and righteous in the sight of God. I never made a faith vs works argument, only that the bible proves there is in fact hope for sinners under the law.
I'm not the one with the dilemma, you have a contradiction in your paradigm, not us. Your New Perspective (N.T. Wright; Sanders) is full blown legalistic Pelagian. Do not see that even in your own comments you're contradicting yourself? The Only hope for sinners by believing and trusting in who Christ is and his finished works!

Let me see, be deceived by you and others here who are trying to confuse and pervert the Gospel, or listen to Paul and Christ? I'll believe and trust in Christ who God justifies this ungodly believer!

BTW, Paul disagrees with you!

No One Is Righteous

9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:


None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13“Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14“Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Galatians 2:15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

You will not deceive me, for Christ is My Redeemer, My Salvation, My righteousness, My Sanctification 1 Cor. 1:30
Despite the name calling, the bible still says that MANY were made sinners (Rom 5:19), and you claimed that ALL were made sinners. I dont personally feel like rehashing that entire debate, but the bible is clear that MANY were made sinners, and ALL (of them) have sinned. You play games with the written word, and read it as it suits you.
LOL...sure dude believe your gibberish. It's your free-will choice, correct???
He doesnt mean PERFECT as in "perfectly sinless", but rather speaks to a completion, or maturity. I have learned over the years that the ones screaming "you need to read" are in fact the ones that need to read. Anyone telling you that they are perfect and sinless is lying.

LOL Jesus set the bar pretty low there.

You changed the words. No one is justified through THE WORKS of the Law, but faith in Christ. That means that Luke 1:6 justification has passed, not that the law never justified in the first place.

LOL Luke 1:6 really has you tied up in knots! You have a contradiction because you are changing Pauls argument. A sinner can be justified before a Holy God by doing those things commanded in the Holy Law for their justification. Like Zacharias and Elisabeth.

Romans 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

You're kinda talking over Paul, when you really need to get out of the way and let him speak. He went on to clarify exactly which Jew would be justified, and why:

Romasn 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God

So there WAS, in fact, justification and righteousness in doing the works of the law, depending on how you did it. That all came to an end with Jesus (Rom 10:4), and THAT is what Paul is talking about in Galatians. You rip his words to shreds and claim that he taught there was NEVER any justification or righteousness in the law. That is false. He said there is none NOW that Jesus has died and risen.


I thought PSA was relatively new doctrine? Wasnt the Gospel doing fine before PSA came along?

Ok thanks for your time
I cannot read anymore of this legalistic Pelagian heresy!!!

Know what you believe and why you believe it!!!
 
Lie of Satan.

Dying for my sins is paying the price for them!

LIE!
Do you have a verse which states the price of sin was paid for on the cross?

Were you sins remitted at that time and was that all that was required?

The Calvinist Shedd noted

It may be asked: If atonement naturally and necessarily cancels guilt, why does not the vicarious atonement of Christ save all men indiscriminately, as the universalist contends? The substituted suffering of Christ being infinite is equal in value to the personal suffering of all mankind; why then are not all men upon the same footing and in the class of the saved, by virtue of it? The answer is because it is a natural impossibility. Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners. It is as naturally impossible that Christ’s death should save from punishment one who does not confide in it as that a loaf of bread should save from starvation a man who does not eat it. The assertion that because the atonement of Christ is sufficient for all men therefore no men are lost is as absurd as the assertion that because the grain produced in the year 1880 was sufficient to support the life of all men on the globe therefore no men died of starvation during that year. The mere fact that Jesus Christ made satisfaction for human sin, alone and of itself, will save no soul. Christ, conceivably, might have died precisely as he did and his death have been just as valuable for expiatory purposes as it is, but if his death had not been followed with the work of the Holy Spirit and the act of faith on the part of individual men, he would have died in vain.[1]



[1] William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology, ed. Alan W. Gomes, 3rd ed. (Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.
 
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