Our actions are causally linked to our circumstances

Simpletruther

Well-known member
Luke 10
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Circumstance A led to action B above.

However, if circumstance X had occurred it would have led to action Y in the same people instead.

The "God is outside of time" and thus sees ahead our freewill choice tactic doesn't work here, because it never happened for him to see your supposed free will choice to thus know what it would be.
 
No, I couldn't get it.
Actual circumstance A: Tyre did not see miracles.

Actual result B: they did not repent.
_______________________________

Potential circumstance X: Tyre did see miracles.

Potential necessary result Y: they repent.

Different circumstances bring about different results.

It necessarily implies a causal connection between circumstances and results.
 
Um. If I don't have any ice cream I can't choose to eat it.

That has nothing to do with free will.
 
I don't think your point had logical connections, so there was nothing to address.

Yes, God does some things we find offensive and scary.

Because we are sinful and benighted creatures, we just end up being offended and angry at God and accusing him of being a monster and rewriting all our theology on our own terms to the point of offense that we, personally, are willing to accept. And you know he loves us so much, he forgives us for a lot of that anyway.

One thing that opened my eyes as I was screaming inside about HOW COULD YOU DO THAT GOD, you heartless cold bastard letting all these unspeakable evils happen, is the fact that, that wasn't actually in the end, deep down where no one could see but God, what I even cared about. I cared about me. All this fuss and frustration over what God allowed or did or did not do, it was al centered on the big, fat throne of ME. It's funny that those Calvinists who proclaim so long and hard that we should accept an offensive God, almost all have lines where they will write God off if he gets too offense. It's because the human heart is inherently evil, self-righteous, self-centered, hypocritical. All the hearts except mine, of course.

I realized God cared about those lost people more than I did, and I didn't really care about them. I wasn't filled with a burning zeal for cosmic justice and selfless passion for the spiritual well-being of all things. I was pissed and scared at God for putting me in danger and making things hard for me, personally. Oh, trust me when I say I wouldn't admit that to myself or others, I often couldn't even see it in myself—but God shows me it's there, and it's this self idolatry is the source of all offense and resistance at the ways of God.

It's not God's character that is the source of ultimate security, because God could be perfectly loving and I could end up in hell. There's no logical disconnect there. But we both know we're sinners. The true security is one thing and one thing alone, the personal promise of the grace of God to someone who in no way ever has or ever could deserve it. Do I have survivor's guilt? Do I panic when I think of what my God has allowed? Do I pull back in fear and dread, and even shaking all over, when I see others falling off the endless precipice of eternal disaster knowing God could have let that be me?

Well, the way out is always the same. And that's to humble myself and ask for his help. He knows best, and my heart and mind will always deceive me. If he says he wants all saved but found good and holy reasons to let some be lost, he doesn't have to share and explain to me to justify his behavior or connect the logical dots to the satisfaciton of my intellect and emotions. He's God Almighty, and it's the height of sheer arrogance and absolute pride to tell him anything at all. "Thou Oh Lord Knowest." All I am to do is ask him what he wants me to believe and believe it.

I hope you find your way out of this evil mental trap of trying to harmonize theology with internal feelings of justifying God into the leap of faith of humbly trusting his help.

I still need to finish that journey myself.
 
I don't think your point had logical connections, so there was nothing to address.

Yes, God does some things we find offensive and scary.

Because we are sinful and benighted creatures, we just end up being offended and angry at God and accusing him of being a monster and rewriting all our theology on our own terms to the point of offense that we, personally, are willing to accept. And you know he loves us so much, he forgives us for a lot of that anyway.

One thing that opened my eyes as I was screaming inside about HOW COULD YOU DO THAT GOD, you heartless cold bastard letting all these unspeakable evils happen, is the fact that, that wasn't actually in the end, deep down where no one could see but God, what I even cared about. I cared about me. All this fuss and frustration over what God allowed or did or did not do, it was al centered on the big, fat throne of ME. It's funny that those Calvinists who proclaim so long and hard that we should accept an offensive God, almost all have lines where they will write God off if he gets too offense. It's because the human heart is inherently evil, self-righteous, self-centered, hypocritical. All the hearts except mine, of course.

I realized God cared about those lost people more than I did, and I didn't really care about them. I wasn't filled with a burning zeal for cosmic justice and selfless passion for the spiritual well-being of all things. I was pissed and scared at God for putting me in danger and making things hard for me, personally. Oh, trust me when I say I wouldn't admit that to myself or others, I often couldn't even see it in myself—but God shows me it's there, and it's this self idolatry is the source of all offense and resistance at the ways of God.

It's not God's character that is the source of ultimate security, because God could be perfectly loving and I could end up in hell. There's no logical disconnect there. But we both know we're sinners. The true security is one thing and one thing alone, the personal promise of the grace of God to someone who in no way ever has or ever could deserve it. Do I have survivor's guilt? Do I panic when I think of what my God has allowed? Do I pull back in fear and dread, and even shaking all over, when I see others falling off the endless precipice of eternal disaster knowing God could have let that be me?

Well, the way out is always the same. And that's to humble myself and ask for his help. He knows best, and my heart and mind will always deceive me. If he says he wants all saved but found good and holy reasons to let some be lost, he doesn't have to share and explain to me to justify his behavior or connect the logical dots to the satisfaciton of my intellect and emotions. He's God Almighty, and it's the height of sheer arrogance and absolute pride to tell him anything at all. "Thou Oh Lord Knowest." All I am to do is ask him what he wants me to believe and believe it.

I hope you find your way out of this evil mental trap of trying to harmonize theology with internal feelings of justifying God into the leap of faith of humbly trusting his help.

I still need to finish that journey myself.
It seems according to the example Jesus gave, that for every circumstance possible, there is only one response possible.

This necessarily implies a causal connection.

Tyre was bound by their circumstance. Had the circumstance been different, they would have chosen differently (repented).

This is necessarily implied.
 
It seems according to the example Jesus gave, that for every circumstance possible, there is only one response possible.

This necessarily implies a causal connection.

Tyre was bound by their circumstance. Had the circumstance been different, they would have chosen differently (repented).

This is necessarily implied.
@Dizerner

Do you see a flaw in that reasoning?
 
Luke 10
13 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.

Circumstance A led to action B above.

However, if circumstance X had occurred it would have led to action Y in the same people instead.

The "God is outside of time" and thus sees ahead our freewill choice tactic doesn't work here, because it never happened for him to see your supposed free will choice to thus know what it would be.
The point is that there was a point that things might have been different. Had Jesus been doing in Tyre and Sidon the same miracles he was doing in Chorazin and Bethsaida they would have repented. I think it is a matter of the latter being harder in heart than Tyre and Sidon were. So it's not an issue of predetermination, but of the hardness of their hearts toward God.

Doug
 
The point is that there was a point that things might have been different. Had Jesus been doing in Tyre and Sidon the same miracles he was doing in Chorazin and Bethsaida they would have repented. I think it is a matter of the latter being harder in heart than Tyre and Sidon were. So it's not an issue of predetermination, but of the hardness of their hearts toward God.

Doug
Seems to me you're reading your theology into the passage. The point is clearly that things would have been different.

Also, you have no way of proving whose heart was harder, or softer than whose.
 
Seems to me you're reading your theology into the passage. The point is clearly that things would have been different.

Also, you have no way of proving whose heart was harder, or softer than whose.
Seems to me the improved response indicates whom had the more responsive heart
 
The point is that there was a point that things might have been different. Had Jesus been doing in Tyre and Sidon the same miracles he was doing in Chorazin and Bethsaida they would have repented. I think it is a matter of the latter being harder in heart than Tyre and Sidon were. So it's not an issue of predetermination, but of the hardness of their hearts toward God.

Doug
It's not that they might have been different.

Its that they absolutely would have been different.

That tells us something. That our actions our casually connected to our circumstances.
 
It's not that they might have been different.

Its that they absolutely would have been different.

That tells us something. That our actions our casually connected to our circumstances.

If I had ice cream right now I would eat it.

DOES NOT EQUAL

If I had ice cream right now I would be casually linked to eating it.

Opportunity limits choices.
 
Seems to me you're reading your theology into the passage. The point is clearly that things would have been different.

Also, you have no way of proving whose heart was harder, or softer than whose.
No more than you are reading yours into the text. I think my assertions are more logical and consistent for contingency is an empty argument if Tyer and Sidon is predetermined to their end. There is no real possibility to have them believe, for they are predetermined not to. Circumstance has nothing to do with it. The decree would be the same regardless of the circumstances.

My proposition allows for the “if” factor to have real teeth, because the change of circumstance has real power to change.

Doug
 
Back
Top