God did not create time

[Simpletruther]

I do not see that taught in scripture.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world.

Notice time is implied before the world began.

Time seems to be merely a conceptual reference point for events. One event happens after another.

Time has always existed because it's not a think but an idea. God in trinity was continually loving and glorifying one another from eternity past. Events were happening in eternity past.

Notice I said past. We can't even imagine an action without conceiving of a before and after.


It fits scripture well enough. And it fits the evidence of what science says as well as another view.
Most think of Einstein's space-time model as evidence of some tangible "thing". But he himself said it was merely conceptual term and that time was an illusion.

 

[Dizerner]

We can't even imagine an action without conceiving of a before and after.

There's lots of things we can't imagine.

Why make God subject and bound to his own creation?

God is infinitely transcendent above all created things.

 

[Simpletruther]

There's lots of things we can't imagine.

Why make God subject and bound to his own creation?

God is infinitely transcendent above all created things.

True. I certainly wouldn't claim the OP is a slam dunk. But it does seem to fit scripture and logic IMO better than other views.

What we can imagine is not the end all be all. But it certainly factors onto trying to comprehend spiritual truth.

 

[Dizerner]

God tabernacles in eternity.

Isaiah 57:15.

Man always wants to bring God down to his image, and what he can fit in his brain.

 

[Simpletruther]

God tabernacles in eternity.

Isaiah 57:15.

Man always wants to bring God down to his image, and what he can fit in his brain.

This is true. But it could be the other view doing that.

Or the other view coming up with cool fantasies like Lord of the rings type stuff "outside of time"" and applying it to God.

 

[Simpletruther]

Yeah, that fantasy stuff like God has this "infinite power" or something, where'd he come up with that?

Unless you tell me how he has it and where it came from and what it EXACTLY is, you expect me to believe that?

Sci-fi much, ammirite? Silly old theologians.

God must be like me, that makes way more sense than an unknowably superior being.

Anyway... as thoughtless as the point is, I'm not trying to belittle the person.

It's so weird how Open Theists and Calvinists both so often make the same error of trying to apply time to God like God is a created thing with created limitations. You might enjoy my thorough conversation with an Open Theist as it covers much of the same ground and objections:

General Question about various beliefs held by various people - The Narrow Path Ministries

theos.org

But infinite power is still bound by logic. God can't do something illogical. God cannot make a rock so heavy he cannot lift it.

Scripture speaks of his power, it doesn't speak of. " of outside of time."

 

[shnarkle]

Notice time is implied before the world began.

Time seems to be merely a conceptual reference point for events.

Therefore, it doesn't actually exist.

One event happens after another.

This is obviously what you believe.

Time has always existed because it's not a think but an idea.

Ideas don't actually exist.

God in trinity was continually loving and glorifying one another from eternity past. Events were happening in eternity past.

This is just Begging the Question. It's also a bit of an oxymoron. There is no past or future in eternity.

Notice I said past.

See above.

We can't even imagine an action without conceiving of a before and after.

Speak for yourself.

It fits scripture well enough.

Or at least your interpretation of scripture.

And it fits the evidence of what science says

?

as well as another view.
Most think of Einstein's space-time model as evidence of some tangible "thing". But he himself said it was merely conceptual term and that time was an illusion.

Therefore, it doesn't exist.

 

[Simpletruther]

Therefore, it doesn't actually exist.

This is obviously what you believe.

Ideas don't actually exist.

This is just Begging the Question. It's also a bit of an oxymoron. There is no past or future in eternity.

See above.

Speak for yourself.

Or at least your interpretation of scripture.

?

Therefore, it doesn't exist.

Why do you suppose there is no time in eternity?

 

[shnarkle]

Why do you suppose there is no time in eternity?

Because time assumes the existence of the past and future which is a contradiction. There is no assumption of the past or the future in eternity. Eternity is not a very long time. Eternity makes all things new again. The new creation does not age or grow old. Eternity obliterates the notion of time altogether.

By definition, the past and future do not exist. There is only the Eternal present, and those who step into eternity do so "in the twinkling of an eye."

One can only think about time, and these ideas are easily proven false. We have time pieces which break up time into segments which are then broken up further into increasingly more minute segments.

Investment funds place their offices as close to a stock exchange as possible to take advantage of the millisecond advantage they have over their competition. These segments of time can be divided indefinitely until time must inevitably come to a complete stop.

So you see, it isn't just that time doesn't exist in eternity. It quite simply doesn't exist at all. Just like one's personal identity or their imaginary gods, it is nothing more than an abstract construction of the mind.

 

[Simpletruther]

So you see, it isn't just that time doesn't exist in eternity. It quite simply doesn't exist at all.

Well that was the OP point. It doesn't exist tangibly.

It does however exist as a concept in our minds.

 

[shnarkle]

Well that was the OP point. It doesn't exist tangibly.

It does however exist as a concept in our minds.

Which also do not tangibly exist, and probably don't belong to us to begin with whoever it may be that you think we are. Ultimately, whoever it may be cannot be who you think they are. Epistemologies can never begin to reach for that far shore of ontological reality.

 

[Simpletruther]

Which also do not tangibly exist, and probably don't belong to us to begin with whoever it may be that you think we are. Ultimately, whoever it may be cannot be who you think they are. Epistemologies can never begin to reach for that far shore of ontological reality.

At the very least they exist as neuron responses in the physical brain, electrical currents and such.

But to say it's just an idea that doesn't exist in reality I am fine with.

 

[shnarkle]

At the very least they exist as neuron responses in the physical brain, electrical currents and such.

Not really. A neuron response in the physical brain is not equivalent to the concept that one is thinking any more than the zeros and ones coded are equivalent to the trash icon on your computer screen. They are essentially symbols or metaphors. They are loose approximations.

But to say it's just an idea that doesn't exist in reality I am fine with.

 

[Simpletruther]

Not really. A neuron response in the physical brain is not equivalent to the concept that one is thinking any more than the zeros and ones coded are equivalent to the trash icon on your computer screen. They are essentially symbols or metaphors. They are loose approximations.

What is a concept?
You are using that word as if it exists.

 

[shnarkle]

What is a concept?

con·cept
[ˈkänˌsept]

NOUN

1. an abstract idea; a general notion:
   "structuralism is a difficult concept" · 
   [more]
   synonyms:
   idea · notion · conception · abstraction · conceptualization · theory · hypothesis

You are using that word as if it exists.

The word does exist. It is the Metaphor that represents the idea. The word is the Symbol that is substituted for the definition.

 

[Simpletruther]

What is a concept?

con·cept
[ˈkänˌsept]

NOUN

1. an abstract idea; a general notion:
   "structuralism is a difficult concept" · 
   [more]
   synonyms:
   idea · notion · conception · abstraction · conceptualization · theory · hypothesis

The word does exist. It is the Metaphor that represents the idea. The word is the Symbol that is substituted for the definition.

Do ideas exist?

 

[shnarkle]

Do ideas exist?

Why are you asking? You already answered this question yourself.

Ideas are potential. They are embodied in words and actions.

 

[Simpletruther]

Why are you asking? You already answered this question yourself.

Ideas are potential. They are embodied in words and actions.

Does potential exist?

 

[shnarkle]

Does potential exist?

No.
synonyms:
possible · likely · prospective · future · probable

potential (adj.)​

late 14c., "possible" (as opposed to actual),

 

[Simpletruther]

There's lots of things we can't imagine.

Why make God subject and bound to his own creation?

God is infinitely transcendent above all created things.

This presupposes that time is a created thing, rather than a concept like the number 8.
Did God create "8" as a tangible thing? No. It's a concept.

I am saying there is no Biblical evidence that time is anything more than a concept of now, before and after.