The Confiteor

[pilgrim]

But Jesus has freed us from slavery to our old sinful nature. He freed Paul from his desire to persecute the early church, and have Christians jailed, and turned him into one of the greatest Christians who ever lived, who was martyred for his faith. He had left behind his old sinful self that hated Christians and wanted to persecute them.

We do receive forgiveness of sins through Holy Baptism and by partaking of the Lord's Supper. But there is no such thing as Purgatory. God will cleanse us from sin and our sinful nature when we who are in Christ Jesus die in Him, trusting in Him to save us. If we must suffer in Purgatory to be cleansed of sin, then that means Jesus' death and Resurrection only did a half-baked job of that, and we must do the rest in Purgatory. But what does John say in his first epistle?

"If we confess our sins, God, Who is faithful and just, will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."

God cleanses us; no Purgatory needed.

Then why are Christians still sinners? What went wrong?

 

[balshan]

Then why are Christians still sinners? What went wrong?

The biggest problem in the RCC is false doctrines and bad leaders.

 

[pilgrim]

But Jesus has freed us from slavery to our old sinful nature. He freed Paul from his desire to persecute the early church, and have Christians jailed, and turned him into one of the greatest Christians who ever lived, who was martyred for his faith. He had left behind his old sinful self that hated Christians and wanted to persecute them.

We do receive forgiveness of sins through Holy Baptism and by partaking of the Lord's Supper. But there is no such thing as Purgatory. God will cleanse us from sin and our sinful nature when we who are in Christ Jesus die in Him, trusting in Him to save us. If we must suffer in Purgatory to be cleansed of sin, then that means Jesus' death and Resurrection only did a half-baked job of that, and we must do the rest in Purgatory. But what does John say in his first epistle?

"If we confess our sins, God, Who is faithful and just, will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."

God cleanses us; no Purgatory needed.

That ^ is called Purgatory.

See, you believe in the concept, even though you don't like the name.

 

[Bonnie]

Then why are Christians still sinners? What went wrong?

Nothing, except we are born with a sinful nature, the old Adam that lives in all of us, except Jesus, and will have it until we die. But thanks be to Jesus Christ, we who are in Christ Jesus and He in us are no longer slaves to that sinful nature. We no longer want to live a life controlled by sin, but controlled by the indwelling HS.

Now, the old Adam can rear its ugly head sometimes, due to stress, illness, fatigue, etc. But "if we confess our sins, God Who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We admit our sin, and lay it at the foot of the cross of Christ, pleading for forgiveness, and receive it.

This isn't that difficult to comprehend, pilgrim.

 

[pilgrim]

Nothing, except we are born with a sinful nature, the old Adam that lives in all of us, except Jesus, and will have it until we die. But thanks be to Jesus Christ, we who are in Christ Jesus and He in us are no longer slaves to that sinful nature. We no longer want to live a life controlled by sin, but controlled by the indwelling HS.

Now, the old Adam can rear its ugly head sometimes, due to stress, illness, fatigue, etc. But "if we confess our sins, God Who is faithful and just will forgive us our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." We admit our sin, and lay it at the foot of the cross of Christ, pleading for forgiveness, and receive it.

This isn't that difficult to comprehend, pilgrim.

Oh please.
Anything but their own fault, right?

 

[pilgrim]

That would be all who die in Christ Jesus our Lord.

who die in a state of perfection.

 

[Bonnie]

That ^ is called Purgatory.

No, it is not. The cleansing happens in the here and now, after we confess our sins and turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness.

See, you believe in the concept, even though you don't like the name.

This is false. I do not believe in ANY concept of Purgatory. It is totally unbiblical.

 

[Bonnie]

who die in a state of perfection.

They die in a state of Grace, because Jesus' righteousness is credited to them by faith, for we have no perfection of our own to boast about.

But IF they die in a state of perfection, why would they need to go to Purgatory after death?

 

[Bonnie]

Oh please.
Anything but their own fault, right?

I never wrote that. Of course it is their fault. But I was giving the causes, not excuses. Please discern the difference.

 

[pilgrim]

I never wrote that. Of course it is their fault. But I was giving the causes, not excuses. Please discern the difference.

You said "the old Adam can rear its ugly head sometimes, due to stress, illness, fatigue, etc."

Those are clearly excuses.

People sin because they choose to sin, love of self over love of God.

"If you love Me keep My commandments."

 

[mica]

Bonnie said:
I never wrote that. Of course it is their fault. But I was giving the causes, not excuses. Please discern the difference.

pilgrim - You said "the old Adam can rear its ugly head sometimes, due to stress, illness, fatigue, etc."

Those are clearly excuses.

People sin because they choose to sin, love of self over love of God.

"If you love Me keep My commandments."

is that why catholics choose to sin?

 

[balshan]

is that why catholics choose to sin?

For all the RCs carrying on about being perfect, you wonder why they need confession and purgatory.

 

[pilgrim]

is that why catholics choose to sin?

It is why everyone sins. But in the Catholic faith, we have remedies, sacramental graces, to make us stronger to overcome our sins.

 

[balshan]

It is why everyone sins. But in the Catholic faith, we have remedies, sacramental graces, to make us stronger to overcome our sins.

They are not remedies, they are false beliefs. If there were remedies then your paedophiles priests, brothers etc would have stopped sinning. Your priests who raped would have stopped sinning. Your priests who sleep around would have stopped sinning. Your church would be pure but it isn't. There is only one remedy it is Jesus and the RCC ignore Him.

 

[mica]

mica said:
is that why catholics choose to sin?

It is why everyone sins. But in the Catholic faith, we have remedies, sacramental graces, to make us stronger to overcome our sins.

notice the words in my post?

what's 'the catholic faith'?

only trusting in Christ alone can help anyone overcome sin.

 

[Bonnie]

You said "the old Adam can rear its ugly head sometimes, due to stress, illness, fatigue, etc."

Yes, and these can be the causes of that, but I never said that made it okay.

No, they are causes. For example, my husband is normally a very sweet man, but he can get snappish sometimes at me, when he is distracted, not feeling good, etc. It is still wrong of him and he always apologizes for it. Most of the time, he doesn't do it.

People sin because they choose to sin, love of self over love of God.

I agree, because they have not been made a new creation in Christ Jesus our Lord. Do you know what that even means? I can give an example from my own life. I used to be a substitute teacher for 10 years. Years ago, while living in St. Louis, where my husband was going to the Lutheran seminary there, I subbed for a high school class. I showed them a movie. There was some swearing in it. I muttered under my breath, "Why do they have to swear in movies?" To my surprise, a young man near me heard me and said "I used to swear a lot and take God's name in vain until I became a born-again Christian." I blinked in surprise and asked him, "When did this happen?" He said "Oh, about 6 months ago." I asked him if it had been difficult to give up cursing and swearing and he replied, "No, I just...quit. I never wanted to do it anymore." I said that his folks must be happy he didn't swear anymore but he sighed and said "No, they swear and curse worse than I did. They are secular humanists." He said he had witnessed his faith to them, but they just didn't get it, which he found frustrating. I told him, "You witnessed verbally to them which is all you can do. Now just let your actions speak of your new faith and that will be an even better witness to them." He thanked me for that.

Anyway, here is a young man who cursed and swore a lot but just...quit after becoming a Christian. He didn't consciously give it up, he just....stopped. He had left that life of sin, and had been born anew by the indwelling Holy Spirit.

"If you love Me keep My commandments."

Do YOU keep them, 100% of the time, in thought, word, and deed?

 

[pilgrim]

Do YOU keep them, 100% of the time, in thought, word, and deed?

Do YOU? Does the Bible even say that?

I told you, we have the sacraments as remedies. They impart sacramental grace, which is a share of God's own life. Little by little, if we cooperate with that grace, we improve on even the most deeply rooted of vices until we overcome them.

 

[Bonnie]

Do YOU? Does the Bible even say that?

I asked you first.

I told you, we have the sacraments as remedies.

I agree we have forgiveness through Baptism and the Lord's Supper. But are they ALL that we have? We can confess our sins privately to Jesus Christ, and receive forgiveness, since all believers are a royal Priesthood in Jesus Christ. We can go directly to Him in prayer, laying our sins at the foot of His cross--no RCC priest or Mass necessary.

They impart sacramental grace, which is a share of God's own life. Little by little, if we cooperate with that grace, we improve on even the most deeply rooted of vices until we overcome them.

That young man did not overcome the Vice of swearing and cursing, little by little, through any sacraments, but just stopped, after coming to believe in Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior. The indwelling HS took away his desire to curse and swear. That is the most important way to receive God's grace and forgiveness--by faith in His Son.

 

[mica]

Bonnie said:
Do YOU keep them, 100% of the time, in thought, word, and deed?

Do YOU? Does the Bible even say that?

why didn't you answer the question you were asked?

I told you, we have the sacraments as remedies. They impart sacramental grace, which is a share of God's own life. Little by little, if we cooperate with that grace, we improve on even the most deeply rooted of vices until we overcome them.

so that's what the rcc provides you? God provided His Son as Lord and Savior. catholics reject His gift.

They impart sacramental grace, which is a share of God's own life.

no, they don't. you can only share in His life thru the rebirth.

Little by little, if we cooperate with that grace, we improve on even the most deeply rooted of vices until we overcome them.

it isn't of God, so it isn't Him you are cooperating with.

 

[RayneBeau]

nope
I and Misfit both agree (post 93) there are no perfect people
It is your interpretation of Matthew 5:48 that is the problem.
You are in error on why Jesus said that.

Still waiting:
Please point out a living adult who is perfect in deed AND thought (as per Matthew 5)

I don't think the word "perfect" used in vs. 48 implies sinless perfection. Most likely it suggests completeness, or maturity as the children of God. The Father loves His enemies and seeks to make them His children. He wants us to assist Him in that by loving our enemies and seeking to win them to God.