Men, Women, Sex and Gender

[Electric Skeptic]

I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Of course, I harbour no hope at all that any of them will actually honestly address the issue.

Humans have two sex chromosomes - they are labelled (although, of course, the labels are arbitrary) x and y. Those with two x's (i.e., XX) are biologically female; they have female genitals. Those with an x and a y (i.e., XY) are biologically male; they have male genitals*.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not. They are biologically not female, but have a gender identity of female, for example. In some circumstances, this is labelled 'gender dysphoria'.

gender dysphoria
a psychological condition marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and DSM V does not list it as one. It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity have the condition known as gender dysphoria; gender dysphoria is, as the definition says, "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning". We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity but deal with it without their lives being "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning".

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex. Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman; a person who is not biologically male but lives as a male in every way feasible is a transman.

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is a man. It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex; it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex. Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'. The same is true of the female versions of such words. Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender) or a female (biological sex) man (gender).

Some have complained that in English, words cannot have multiple meanings; 'male', therefore, only and always refers to a person's biological sex. This is false both in general (huge numbers of English language words have multiple meanings) and in particular, as shown by the dictionary.

male
a: (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female
(2) : having or producing only stamens or staminate flowers a male holly
b : having a gender identity that is the opposite of female

In order to aid and show support for such people, large parts of society have chosen to treat such people, in every way feasible, as being of the gender as which they identify, and support their 'transitioning' from one gender to another. Thus, there is huge support for such people from large sections of society. Why anybody would object to helping others in such a way is beyond me.

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.

 

[BMS]

I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Biological sex exists, for example so many scientists who may or may not be Christian know this
ie the Nettie project
So you are clearly attacking Christians

Biological sex is binary, by definition, in that it has two sex determining chromosomes, X and Y and two resulting anatomies, male and female.
The physical anatomies aren't just reproductive organs, they are also distinct bone structures and muscle densities etc.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

No. Not possible to have no sense of what they are, nor is there are consensus of scientific study or agreement. A very few people have experienced a dis-ease with their biological sex, and associate with the other sex, but any innate sense of being the opposite sex is limited by their biological sex. A man cant fully know what it is like to be a woman because he doesn't have the anatomy. So for example I can only have an innate sense of what I am, I cant have a sense of what I am not. Nor can one have a sense of not being any sex at all. They are the biological sex they are. That claim is a lie
and anyone believing that has already lost touch with reality

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

That contains a lie. There are masculine and feminine traits a person can have, masculine associated with male and feminine associated with female. One cant be outside what one is! If a man identifies as a woman it doesnt mean he is a woman. Also since everyone is either male or female or intersex it is a lie to say they are outside the male/female classification.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Nonsense. Since biological sex is the physical anatomy one cant develop a sense of not being the biological sex by parental rearing. That means the parents have been indoctrinating the child with lies. Furthermore, all the studies, as you have seen, show that 79-94% of children who experience any dysphoria no longer do so after puberty.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex.

Like the majority of people I dont have a gender identity because it is a made up social construct which denies biological sex.

Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not.

Unfortunately before about 2105 there were annually about 50-70 children referred to the NHS GIDS for this, and since the widespread introduction of the ideology you are peddling there are thousands.
The latest study from Sweden shows that suicide rates are still as high among those have 'transitioned' as those who haven't, and many people are now trying to 'detransition' .

Now bear in mind the Swedish study is already flawed because it is dealing with people with the concept of gender dysphoria, for which there is barely any science to quantify, its merely what people claim. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness,

It is a dis-ease and abnormality because they dont identify with what they are

It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity

This is incorrect and deception. Their biological sex doesnt differ, its immutable. This is why you get asked the question by all the posters. The gender dysphoria is because they are ill at ease with the biological sex they are. Their biological sex cannot differ from what they think about it. Thinking this way is a mental illness.

and impairment in life functioning".

From the study provided
Transsexualism (ICD-10),[1] or gender identity disorder (DSM-IV),[2] is a condition in which a person's gender identity - the sense of being a man or a woman - contradicts his or her bodily sex characteristics. The individual experiences gender dysphoria and desires to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex.
In what way can this impair their life functioning? Does it stop them getting a job? Does it stop them studying eating sleeping etc. The only restrictions are those imposed by the biological sex they are.

We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity .

That implies the feeling takes precedence over the reality. The person's biological sex cant differ from what it is.
Firstly one can see that with the NHS studies a contagion of indoctrination has occurred, whereby from 50-70 children referred to thousands annually, together with the latest Swedish study, following on from the Keira Bell pronouncement, that the number is way higher than it should be because of the indoctrination of this faulty ideology

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

It can be reasoned and counselled away, not least with the examples of Keira Bell and Debbie Hayton.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex.

The Swedish study shows that it isn't the case. The medical science disagrees with your ideology.

Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman;

A person who is male can live as a female in every way feasible except by the limitations of his biological sex. They cant for example menstruate or get pregnant or pee in the same way . This is why you get challenged on this and why saying 'pregnant person' is a deception. The use of the term transwomen is deception. Transsexual would be better. The transwoman is a man because male/man is the biological sex.

 

[BMS]

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman,

There is the lie. A woman as you have said yourself has XX chromosomes and female anatomy so if a 'transwoman' has XY chromosomes and male anatomy they are male and a man.
So your ideology is a denial of biological sex.
What do are doing is affirming the reality of biological sex and then pretending that it isnt the reality if someone imagines it isnt.
Its a lie.

It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex;

It is a denial of their biological sex, that is exactly what it is. Which is why you get asked the question, and why you will always get asked the question

it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex.

Since you have just presented their gender as their sense of biological sex, it cant be rather than their biological sex. Your statement is false.

Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'.

No. Not possible and a contradiction. See above from what you yourself have presented. Male refers to the biological sex, gender is either the male or female division of a species, that is the biological sex, gender identity is a person's inner sense of being male or female which is the biological sex, and gender dysphoria is a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex, a mismatch of the way one feels about one's biological sex. All your definitions of gender are related to the biological sex, now you are suggesting they are the same. Its nonsense.

Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender)

Nope, not possible, a man is the male adult of the species and male is biological sex. A woman is the female adult of the species which is the biological sex.
So back to my question. What is woman in terms of gender as opposed to the biological sex being XX chromosomes and female anatomy with female reproductive organs?

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.

So people with intersex syndromes are intersex, not inter gender, because the chromosomes are biological sex.
This is the science which you dont understand and irrespective of your dislike of Christians

 

[Nedsk]

I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Of course, I harbour no hope at all that any of them will actually honestly address the issue.

Humans have two sex chromosomes - they are labelled (although, of course, the labels are arbitrary) x and y. Those with two x's (i.e., XX) are biologically female; they have female genitals. Those with an x and a y (i.e., XY) are biologically male; they have male genitals*.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not. They are biologically not female, but have a gender identity of female, for example. In some circumstances, this is labelled 'gender dysphoria'.

gender dysphoria
a psychological condition marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and DSM V does not list it as one. It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity have the condition known as gender dysphoria; gender dysphoria is, as the definition says, "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning". We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity but deal with it without their lives being "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning".

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex. Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman; a person who is not biologically male but lives as a male in every way feasible is a transman.

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is a man. It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex; it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex. Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'. The same is true of the female versions of such words. Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender) or a female (biological sex) man (gender).

Some have complained that in English, words cannot have multiple meanings; 'male', therefore, only and always refers to a person's biological sex. This is false both in general (huge numbers of English language words have multiple meanings) and in particular, as shown by the dictionary.

male
a: (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female
(2) : having or producing only stamens or staminate flowers a male holly
b : having a gender identity that is the opposite of female

In order to aid and show support for such people, large parts of society have chosen to treat such people, in every way feasible, as being of the gender as which they identify, and support their 'transitioning' from one gender to another. Thus, there is huge support for such people from large sections of society. Why anybody would object to helping others in such a way is beyond me.

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.

So let's see if I understand you correctly. A person with XY chromosomes and male genitalia is biologically a male but could be a gender female, correct? So they retain their biological sex and can be a gender female. And someone could be a biological male and be a gender male. The same is true in the other direction correct?

 

[Furion]

Do you actually think people don't "get" what you are saying?

Are you so hard of understanding that you don't "get" it's about you people trying to bend the law and society towards your many, many gender details?

No one would care if you just talked among yourselves, one two spirit cis-something to another just regular gay dude sharing pronoun theory.

But no...

 

[Misfit]

I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Of course, I harbour no hope at all that any of them will actually honestly address the issue.

Humans have two sex chromosomes - they are labelled (although, of course, the labels are arbitrary) x and y. Those with two x's (i.e., XX) are biologically female; they have female genitals. Those with an x and a y (i.e., XY) are biologically male; they have male genitals*.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not. They are biologically not female, but have a gender identity of female, for example. In some circumstances, this is labelled 'gender dysphoria'.

gender dysphoria
a psychological condition marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and DSM V does not list it as one. It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity have the condition known as gender dysphoria; gender dysphoria is, as the definition says, "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning". We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity but deal with it without their lives being "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning".

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex. Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman; a person who is not biologically male but lives as a male in every way feasible is a transman.

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is a man. It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex; it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex. Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'. The same is true of the female versions of such words. Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender) or a female (biological sex) man (gender).

Some have complained that in English, words cannot have multiple meanings; 'male', therefore, only and always refers to a person's biological sex. This is false both in general (huge numbers of English language words have multiple meanings) and in particular, as shown by the dictionary.

male
a: (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female
(2) : having or producing only stamens or staminate flowers a male holly
b : having a gender identity that is the opposite of female

In order to aid and show support for such people, large parts of society have chosen to treat such people, in every way feasible, as being of the gender as which they identify, and support their 'transitioning' from one gender to another. Thus, there is huge support for such people from large sections of society. Why anybody would object to helping others in such a way is beyond me.

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.

I'm sorry, but this is all just a bunch of nonsense and you are playing into the wokeness that is now infecting our society. I reject this "gender fluidity" idea that was just made up. There are just two sexes (male and female) and two genders (male and female). One is either one or the other and such a thing is established at birth.

 

[Nedsk]

Do you actually think people don't "get" what you are saying?

Are you so hard of understanding that you don't "get" it's about you people trying to bend the law and society towards your many, many gender details?

No one would care if you just talked among yourselves, one two spirit cis-something to another just regular gay dude sharing pronoun theory.

But no...

They want to shove it done peoples throats but actually get ticked off when people say they don't want it shoved down their throats

 

[Crazy Ivan]

This is a long reply so I'm breaking it up into two posts. Sorry for the length. And just an FYI...you know I'm going to disagree with some of what you say here (certainly not all of it, but some of it), but I do appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it. Well done.

I post this not in the hope that any conservative 'Christians' will actually read and try to understand it. They will, of course, continue to falsely insist that the issues it discusses haven't been addressed. But this might be an easy place to bookmark and point to next time they whine about questions not having been answered.

Of course, I harbour no hope at all that any of them will actually honestly address the issue.

Humans have two sex chromosomes - they are labelled (although, of course, the labels are arbitrary) x and y. Those with two x's (i.e., XX) are biologically female; they have female genitals. Those with an x and a y (i.e., XY) are biologically male; they have male genitals*.

Each human also has an innate sense of whether they are male, female, both or neither. This is known as their 'gender' or 'gender identity'.

gender:
- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior: the feminine gender.
- a similar category of human beings that is outside the male/female binary classification and is based on the individual's personal awareness or identity.

gender identity
a person's inner sense of being male or female, usually developed during early childhood as a result of parental rearing practices and societal influences and strengthened during puberty by hormonal changes.

Like myself, the majority of people have a gender identity that corresponds with their biological sex. Unfortunately, a significant portion of the population does not. They are biologically not female, but have a gender identity of female, for example. In some circumstances, this is labelled 'gender dysphoria'.

gender dysphoria
a psychological condition marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth.

It is important to note that gender dysphoria is not an illness, and DSM V does not list it as one.

This is completely false. DSM-5 absolutely lists gender dysphoria as a mental illness, when accompanied by distress or some other impairment.

See: https://psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

It distinguishes gender dysphoria from incongruence between biological sex and gender identity or expression, the latter of which are not considered mental illnesses. In other words, simply having the incongruence, if it doesn't cause you any problems and you function just fine, is not considered a mental illness. But gender dysphoria, with the associated emotional distress and impairment, absolutely IS considered a mental illness.

From: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/gender-dysphoria/symptoms-causes/syc-20475255 - "A diagnosis for gender dysphoria is included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5), a manual published by the American Psychiatric Association."

It is also important to note that not all people whose biological sex differs from their gender identity have the condition known as gender dysphoria; gender dysphoria is, as the definition says, "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning". We have no way of knowing how many people have a biological sex that differs from their gender identity but deal with it without their lives being "marked by significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning".

I agree. For some people it isn't a distressing situation.

There is no way to resolve this "lack of congruence between gender identity and sex". It can't be reasoned or counselled away; no medication 'fixes' it.

The best way to deal with this condition yet discovered is for the person with it to live, in every way feasible, as the gender as which they identify, rather than as their biological sex. Those who do this are known as 'trans'. A person who is not biologically female but lives as a female in every way feasible is a transwoman; a person who is not biologically male but lives as a male in every way feasible is a transman.

It is also customary to drop the 'trans', noting that a transwoman is a woman, and a transman is a man. It is not an attempt to deny, obliterate or denigrate the person's biological sex; it is merely to note that the way that they present themselves to the world is by their gender, rather than their biological sex. Of course, this utilises the propensity of English language words to have multiple meanings. In this case, among other meanings, 'male' (for example) can refer to a person's biological sex or to their gender, as can similar terms like 'man'. The same is true of the female versions of such words. Thus a person could be a male (biological sex) woman (gender) or a female (biological sex) man (gender).

Some have complained that in English, words cannot have multiple meanings; 'male', therefore, only and always refers to a person's biological sex. This is false both in general (huge numbers of English language words have multiple meanings) and in particular, as shown by the dictionary.

male
a: (1) : of, relating to, or being the sex that typically has the capacity to produce relatively small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the eggs of a female
(2) : having or producing only stamens or staminate flowers a male holly
b : having a gender identity that is the opposite of female

In order to aid and show support for such people, large parts of society have chosen to treat such people, in every way feasible, as being of the gender as which they identify, and support their 'transitioning' from one gender to another. Thus, there is huge support for such people from large sections of society. Why anybody would object to helping others in such a way is beyond me.

*I deliberately omit from this discussion those relatively rare people who have other than XX or XY chromosomes. I do this not to ignore, denigrate or dismiss their position or minimise the problems that arise from such a situation, but rather to simplify the discussion in the hopes that the conservative 'Christians' will be able to understand it, without getting into the complexities of the various varieties of intersexed persons.

In literally every instance where one's mental perception, or "feeling" about objective physical reality differs from that objective physical reality, we label it a mental disorder. Body dysmorphia (a person feels like a part of their body is "wrong" when it is quite normal in fact), lycanthropy (a person feels like they're a raccoon, when they're obviously a human), anorexia (a thin person feels they are fat when quite objectively they are not), paranoia (a feeling or sense that people are out to get me when in fact nobody is)....all examples where a person's mental perception or feeling is incongruent with objective physical reality.

The ONLY case where we make this exception is in the case of transgenderism.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

(part 2)

Incongruence: A person feels they are overweight when they are in fact underweight.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of anorexia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Trying to align their body to their flawed mental perception.
Political clout of anorexics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels their nose is too big or misshapen when in fact it's perfectly normal.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of body dysmorphia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Trying to align their body to their flawed mental perception. (though perhaps in some cases plastic surgery could at least bring congruence, but it wouldn't change the fact that their perception was flawed in the first place)
Political clout of body dysmorphics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like they're actually a raccoon when in fact they are human.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of lycanthropy.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Treating them like they're actually a raccoon and letting them root around in the garbage and live naked in trees.
Political clout of lycanthopics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like people are out to get them when in fact nobody is.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of paranoia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Letting them live in their paranoid delusions and helping them watch out for the bad guys coming to get them.
Political clout of paranoid people: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like they're a man when in fact they're a female (a woman).
Diagnosis: Hmmm...everything seems to be just fine and normal with this person psychologically, so clearly it's their otherwise perfectly normal body that must be the problem. Even though this situation comes with an attempted suicide rate of over 45%, and is astronomically high *even when we account for things like bullying*. Even though upwards of 90% of teens who identify as trans will simply grow out of it if we just give it time.
Solution: Give 10 year olds puberty blockers that come with long-term harmful effects, and recommending top surgery to remove both breasts, and give them a hysterectomy to get rid of their ovaries, and to use complex plastic surgery to create a faux penis. Allow the use of totally made up pronouns like xe and xyr and zhe. Allow biological males to compete in, and dominate, women's sports simply on the basis of claimed identity. Allowing these biological male athletes to be in the locker rooms naked with the female athletes.
Political clout of members of the LGBTQ community: IMMENSE

I mean....one of these things is not like the others. It is absolutely INSANE - there is no other word for it - that we view things this way with gender dysphoria.

There is NO question whatsoever that trans people need to be treated every bit as human and precious as anyone else. They are, from a Christian perspective, made in the image of God and have inherent value and worth, and obviously very many trans people are among the nicest people you'll ever meet (not that that is the determiner of their worth or value). They have rights just like everyone else, and should not have to fight to have equal access to society. They should be loved and respected and cared for and given opportunities afforded everyone else.

BUT....

It's absolutely insane to think that this is normal or isn't a mental disorder. Quite clearly, political clout has come into play on this topic. Clearly. As a result, it has led to catastrophe for many young people looking to transition.

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

"Until 2019, Marcus Evans was the Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Services at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, a publicly funded mental-health center in the UK where many youth seek treatment for gender dysphoria. But he resigned three years ago over what he viewed as the unnecessary medicalization of dysphoric adolescents.

“I saw children being fast-tracked onto medical solutions for psychological problems, and when kids get on the medical conveyor belt, they don’t get off,” Evans said. “But the politicization of the issue was shutting down proper clinical rigor. That meant quite vulnerable kids were in danger of being put on a medical path for treatment that they may well regret.”"

and

"According to an online survey of detransitioners conducted by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, 40% said their gender dysphoria was caused by a mental-health condition and 62% felt medical professionals did not investigate whether trauma was a factor in their transition decisions.

“My dysphoria collided with my general depression issues and body image issues,” Helena recalled. “I just came to the conclusion that I was born in the wrong body and that all my problems in life would be solved if I transitioned.”"

An enormous, catastrophic wrong is being done to young people in this area. You're 27 and want to alter your body so you look more like how you feel? Go for it. It's bizarre. It's not healthy. And statistics show that it's not really going to help you very much. But you have the right to do that as an adult and you still should have equal rights just like everyone else. Getting massive breast implants so you go from a size A to a size DD probably isn't a great idea, but hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

But you want to do this to a 12 year old or a 15 year old? It's borderline criminal behavior, and morally repugnant, especially when we KNOW that upwards of 90% of them will simply grow out of it.

Moreover, it's also insane to demand that the rest of society go along with it. You are a female and you want to call yourself a man and remove your breasts? Fine. But that doesn't actually MAKE you a woman, nor should the rest of us be required (either legally or by social convention) to address you as a woman. It might be courteous, and perhaps it's the kind thing to do (perhaps not, but perhaps), but that shouldn't be forced on the rest of society. Nor should we put others in harm's way or, if we aren't going to label it that, severe discomfort just to accommodate the desires of a trans person (like what happened with the Penn women's swim team).

 

[Nedsk]

(part 2)

Incongruence: A person feels they are overweight when they are in fact underweight.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of anorexia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Trying to align their body to their flawed mental perception.
Political clout of anorexics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels their nose is too big or misshapen when in fact it's perfectly normal.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of body dysmorphia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Trying to align their body to their flawed mental perception. (though perhaps in some cases plastic surgery could at least bring congruence, but it wouldn't change the fact that their perception was flawed in the first place)
Political clout of body dysmorphics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like they're actually a raccoon when in fact they are human.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of lycanthropy.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Treating them like they're actually a raccoon and letting them root around in the garbage and live naked in trees.
Political clout of lycanthopics: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like people are out to get them when in fact nobody is.
Diagnosis: Mental disorder of paranoia.
Solution: Psychiatric help to align them with physical reality.
ERROR: Letting them live in their paranoid delusions and helping them watch out for the bad guys coming to get them.
Political clout of paranoid people: NIL

Incongruence: A person feels like they're a man when in fact they're a female (a woman).
Diagnosis: Hmmm...everything seems to be just fine and normal with this person psychologically, so clearly it's their otherwise perfectly normal body that must be the problem. Even though this situation comes with an attempted suicide rate of over 45%, and is astronomically high *even when we account for things like bullying*. Even though upwards of 90% of teens who identify as trans will simply grow out of it if we just give it time.
Solution: Give 10 year olds puberty blockers that come with long-term harmful effects, and recommending top surgery to remove both breasts, and give them a hysterectomy to get rid of their ovaries, and to use complex plastic surgery to create a faux penis. Allow the use of totally made up pronouns like xe and xyr and zhe. Allow biological males to compete in, and dominate, women's sports simply on the basis of claimed identity. Allowing these biological male athletes to be in the locker rooms naked with the female athletes.
Political clout of members of the LGBTQ community: IMMENSE

I mean....one of these things is not like the others. It is absolutely INSANE - there is no other word for it - that we view things this way with gender dysphoria.

There is NO question whatsoever that trans people need to be treated every bit as human and precious as anyone else. They are, from a Christian perspective, made in the image of God and have inherent value and worth, and obviously very many trans people are among the nicest people you'll ever meet (not that that is the determiner of their worth or value). They have rights just like everyone else, and should not have to fight to have equal access to society. They should be loved and respected and cared for and given opportunities afforded everyone else.

BUT....

It's absolutely insane to think that this is normal or isn't a mental disorder. Quite clearly, political clout has come into play on this topic. Clearly. As a result, it has led to catastrophe for many young people looking to transition.

‘I literally lost organs:’ Why detransitioned teens regret changing genders

A look at the alarming rise of teens who are changing genders and then “detransitioning” back.

nypost.com

"Until 2019, Marcus Evans was the Clinical Director of Adult and Adolescent Services at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Trust, a publicly funded mental-health center in the UK where many youth seek treatment for gender dysphoria. But he resigned three years ago over what he viewed as the unnecessary medicalization of dysphoric adolescents.

“I saw children being fast-tracked onto medical solutions for psychological problems, and when kids get on the medical conveyor belt, they don’t get off,” Evans said. “But the politicization of the issue was shutting down proper clinical rigor. That meant quite vulnerable kids were in danger of being put on a medical path for treatment that they may well regret.”"

and

"According to an online survey of detransitioners conducted by Dr. Lisa Littman last year, 40% said their gender dysphoria was caused by a mental-health condition and 62% felt medical professionals did not investigate whether trauma was a factor in their transition decisions.

“My dysphoria collided with my general depression issues and body image issues,” Helena recalled. “I just came to the conclusion that I was born in the wrong body and that all my problems in life would be solved if I transitioned.”"

An enormous, catastrophic wrong is being done to young people in this area. You're 27 and want to alter your body so you look more like how you feel? Go for it. It's bizarre. It's not healthy. And statistics show that it's not really going to help you very much. But you have the right to do that as an adult and you still should have equal rights just like everyone else. Getting massive breast implants so you go from a size A to a size DD probably isn't a great idea, but hey, if it makes you feel better about yourself, go for it.

But you want to do this to a 12 year old or a 15 year old? It's borderline criminal behavior, and morally repugnant, especially when we KNOW that upwards of 90% of them will simply grow out of it.

Moreover, it's also insane to demand that the rest of society go along with it. You are a female and you want to call yourself a man and remove your breasts? Fine. But that doesn't actually MAKE you a woman, nor should the rest of us be required (either legally or by social convention) to address you as a woman. It might be courteous, and perhaps it's the kind thing to do (perhaps not, but perhaps), but that shouldn't be forced on the rest of society. Nor should we put others in harm's way or, if we aren't going to label it that, severe discomfort just to accommodate the desires of a trans person (like what happened with the Penn women's swim team).

Thats one of the best posts I have seen on this site! I agree with every last word of it. The only thing b problem I see with it is it's too fact based and I suspect will be rejected by every proponent of transgender ideology. They will walk right past facts to get to their emotions. That's what drives all of progressive ideology. EXCELLENT job with this!

 

[Crazy Ivan]

Thats one of the best posts I have seen on this site! I agree with every last word of it. The only thing b problem I see with it is it's too fact based and I suspect will be rejected by every proponent of transgender ideology. They will walk right past facts to get to their emotions. That's what drives all of progressive ideology. EXCELLENT job with this!

Thank you.

A person who is underweight but believes they're overweight:
- is NOT a person who is ACTUALLY underweight, but rather
- IS a person who is underweight but believes they're overweight, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who is has a perfectly normal body part (say a nose) but believes that body part is misshapen or is somehow "wrong":
- is NOT a person who ACTUALLY has a misshapen or "wrong" nose, but rather
- IS a person with a perfectly normal nose but believes it's somehow misshapen or "wrong", and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who is a human but believes they are a raccoon:
- is NOT a person who is ACTUALLY a raccoon, but rather
- IS a person who is a human who believes they're a raccoon, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who leads a normal life but believes people are out to get them:
- is NOT a person who has others ACTUALLY out to get them, but rather
- IS a person who leads a normal life but believes others are out to get them, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

But for some reason (we know why)...

A person who is a woman (a female) but believes she's a man (a male):
- is, somehow, considered in today's society to actually be a man, and
- doesn't have a mental disorder at all, but rather it is her body that is considered to be wrong, and so
- she is encouraged to go through all sorts of treatment to alter her physical body, from hormone therapy to actually removing perfectly functioning body parts in order to align her body (as best they can) with her beliefs about herself, and society bends over backward trying to coerce the rest of us into this idea that her belief that she is a man actually makes her a man

I mean....if we step away, shake out the cobwebs, and look at this with a sober mind, we realize that it's truly, utterly nuts.

 

[Nedsk]

Thank you.

A person who is underweight but believes they're overweight:
- is NOT a person who is ACTUALLY underweight, but rather
- IS a person who is underweight but believes they're overweight, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who is has a perfectly normal body part (say a nose) but believes that body part is misshapen or is somehow "wrong":
- is NOT a person who ACTUALLY has a misshapen or "wrong" nose, but rather
- IS a person with a perfectly normal nose but believes it's somehow misshapen or "wrong", and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who is a human but believes they are a raccoon:
- is NOT a person who is ACTUALLY a raccoon, but rather
- IS a person who is a human who believes they're a raccoon, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

A person who leads a normal life but believes people are out to get them:
- is NOT a person who has others ACTUALLY out to get them, but rather
- IS a person who leads a normal life but believes others are out to get them, and so
- they are diagnosed with a mental disorder and are treated accordingly

But for some reason (we know why)...

A person who is a woman (a female) but believes she's a man (a male):
- is, somehow, considered in today's society to actually be a man, and
- doesn't have a mental disorder at all, but rather it is her body that is considered to be wrong, and so
- she is encouraged to go through all sorts of treatment to alter her physical body, from hormone therapy to actually removing perfectly functioning body parts in order to align her body (as best they can) with her beliefs about herself, and society bends over backward trying to coerce the rest of us into this idea that her belief that she is a man actually makes her a man

I mean....if we step away, shake out the cobwebs, and look at this with a sober mind, we realize that it's truly, utterly nuts.

I couldn't agree more but these people REALLY believe this stuff. The issue is people can believe things that aren't true. They will reject any and all evidence to the contrary because they believe that something is real. It's amazing how powerful yet how deluded the human mind can be.

 

[Nedsk]

I couldn't agree more but these people REALLY believe this stuff. The issue is people can believe things that aren't true. They will reject any and all evidence to the contrary because they believe that something is real. It's amazing how powerful yet how deluded the human mind can be.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Biological sex exists, for example so many scientists who may or may not be Christian know this
ie the Nettie project
So you are clearly attacking Christians

Nope. Just conservative so-called 'Christians'.

Biological sex is binary, by definition, in that it has two sex determining chromosomes, X and Y and two resulting anatomies, male and female.
The physical anatomies aren't just reproductive organs, they are also distinct bone structures and muscle densities etc.

Not at issue.

No. Not possible to have no sense of what they are, nor is there are consensus of scientific study or agreement.

I think this is a typo and you meant that it is not possible to have a sense of what they are. In which case you are wrong; of course it is. I sense that I am male; that falsifies your claim.

A very few people have experienced a dis-ease with their biological sex, and associate with the other sex, but any innate sense of being the opposite sex is limited by their biological sex. A man cant fully know what it is like to be a woman because he doesn't have the anatomy. So for example I can only have an innate sense of what I am, I cant have a sense of what I am not. Nor can one have a sense of not being any sex at all. They are the biological sex they are. That claim is a lie and anyone believing that has already lost touch with reality

This is obviously false. You have zero idea of what other people can feel or have a sense of, and it's already been disproved that people can't have a sense of being male or female.

And I'm not interested in your childish ad hominem.

That contains a lie. There are masculine and feminine traits a person can have, masculine associated with male and feminine associated with female.

Yup.

One cant be outside what one is!

If a man identifies as a woman it doesnt mean he is a woman.

Yes, it does, as the OP explains.

Also since everyone is either male or female or intersex it is a lie to say they are outside the male/female classification.

You just said that everyone is "male or female or intersex". You literally included a group who are outside the male/female classification.

Nonsense. Since biological sex is the physical anatomy one cant develop a sense of not being the biological sex by parental rearing. That means the parents have been indoctrinating the child with lies.

No, it doesn't.

Furthermore, all the studies, as you have seen, show that 79-94% of children who experience any dysphoria no longer do so after puberty.

which means 6%-21% of children continue to do so after puberty.

Like the majority of people I dont have a gender identity because it is a made up social construct which denies biological sex.

If you don't feel that you are male, I can't help you. And no, neither gender nor gender identity denies biological sex and despite repeated requests you have been unable to demonstrate that it does.

Unfortunately before about 2105 there were annually about 50-70 children referred to the NHS GIDS for this, and since the widespread introduction of the ideology you are peddling there are thousands.

I'm not peddling anything; I am stating facts. Nor does the fact you point out indicate anything but that more people are becoming aware of the condition.

The latest study from Sweden shows that suicide rates are still as high among those have 'transitioned' as those who haven't, and many people are now trying to 'detransition' .

The study does not say that. It says that trans people have a higher suicide rate than non-trans people. It does not say that the suicide rate among trans people is as high as those who have a different gender identity than their sex.

Nor does the fact that some people are detransitioning indicate anything contrary to anything I stated.

Now bear in mind the Swedish study is already flawed because it is dealing with people with the concept of gender dysphoria, for which there is barely any science to quantify, its merely what people claim.

If the study is "already flawed" then you cannot draw any conclusions from it. Yet you attempt to do so. You can't have it both ways.

It is a dis-ease and abnormality because they dont identify with what they are

There is a fine difference between 'disease' and 'illness'. DSM-IV recognises gender dysphoria as an illness. Note that not all people whose gender identity differs from their biological sex have gender dysphoria.

Those whose gender identity does not correspond to their biological sex are abnormal in the same way that redheads and left-handed people are abnormal.

This is incorrect and deception. Their biological sex doesnt differ, its immutable. Their biological sex cannot differ from what they think about it. Thinking this way is a mental illness.

It is nowhere suggested, implied or stated in my post that biological sex can change. Strawman.

The gender dysphoria is because they are ill at ease with the biological sex they are.

The gender dysphoria is, as already noted, because they experience "significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth."

This is why you get asked the question by all the posters.

Since the question has been repeatedly answered and is again answered by the OP in this thread, there is obviously another reason why we get asked the same question over and over and over...

 

[Electric Skeptic]

From the study provided
Transsexualism (ICD-10),[1] or gender identity disorder (DSM-IV),[2] is a condition in which a person's gender identity - the sense of being a man or a woman - contradicts his or her bodily sex characteristics. The individual experiences gender dysphoria and desires to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex.

In what way can this impair their life functioning? Does it stop them getting a job? Does it stop them studying eating sleeping etc. The only restrictions are those imposed by the biological sex they are.

Take it up with the professionals who encounter people who are experiencing "significant emotional distress and impairment in life functioning, caused by a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex assigned at birth." I think I'll take their word that it happens over the word of some untrained, inexperienced nobody on the internet.

That implies the feeling takes precedence over the reality. The person's biological sex cant differ from what it is.

No, it doesn't imply that. Nor does it state (nor has anybody stated) that a person's biological sex can differe from what it is.

Firstly one can see that with the NHS studies a contagion of indoctrination has occurred, whereby from 50-70 children referred to thousands annually,

No, one cannot see that at all. That conclusion is not supported by anything you have provided.

together with the latest Swedish study, following on from the Keira Bell pronouncement, that the number is way higher than it should be because of the indoctrination of this faulty ideology

No, one cannot see that at all. That conclusion is not supported by anything you have provided.

It can be reasoned and counselled away, not least with the examples of Keira Bell and Debbie Hayton.

Debbie Hayton is a transwoman who preaches against trans people. She's an obvious hypocrite out for an audience.

Keira Bell, by her own admission, had multiple problems and she chose to concentrate on one, rather than addressing the multitude she had. The only unreversable change she made was when she was 20. That she now recognises her gender identify confusion as a symptom of her larger issues does not show that a gender identity which differs from one's biological sex can be reasoned or counselled away.

The Swedish study shows that it isn't the case. The medical science disagrees with your ideology.[/B]

No, it does not. What I state is fact, not idealogy.

person who is male can live as a female in every way feasible except by the limitations of his biological sex. They cant for example menstruate or get pregnant or pee in the same way.

Which changes nothing I said. Note the phrase "in every way feasible".

This is why you get challenged on this and why saying 'pregnant person' is a deception.

There is nothing deceptive in the phrase 'pregnant person'. Throughout the history of the human race, every single pregnancy has been that of a person.

The use of the term transwomen is deception. Transsexual would be better.

Thanks for your opinion. Take it up with the dictionary.

The transwoman is a man because male/man is the biological sex. [/B]

The transwoman is a woman because female/woman is the gender.

There is the lie. A woman as you have said yourself has XX chromosomes and female anatomy so if a 'transwoman' has XY chromosomes and male anatomy they are male and a man.

They are biologically male with a gender of female.

So your ideology is a denial of biological sex.
Gender identity a denial of biological sex.

What do are doing is affirming the reality of biological sex and then pretending that it isnt the reality if someone imagines it isnt.
Its a lie.

Nobody is pretending that biological sex isn't the reality - that is entirely a figment of your imagination.

It is a denial of their biological sex, that is exactly what it is. Which is why you get asked the question, and why you will always get asked the question[/B]

Since you have just presented their gender as their sense of biological sex, it cant be rather than their biological sex. Your statement is false.[/B]

Of course it can, and is. Take it up with the people who have such a sense.

No. Not possible and a contradiction. See above from what you yourself have presented. Male refers to the biological sex, gender is either the male or female division of a species, that is the biological sex, gender identity is a person's inner sense of being male or female which is the biological sex, and gender dysphoria is a lack of congruence between gender identity and sex, a mismatch of the way one feels about one's biological sex. All your definitions of gender are related to the biological sex, now you are suggesting they are the same. Its nonsense. [/B]

You've been provided a dictionary definition of the word 'male' which defines it as "having a gender identity that is the opposite of female". You are wrong as a matter of fact.

Nope, not possible, a man is the male adult of the species and male is biological sex. A woman is the female adult of the species which is the biological sex.

And a woman is a person who chooses to live/present as a woman, regardless of her biological sex.

So back to my question. What is woman in terms of gender as opposed to the biological sex being XX chromosomes and female anatomy with female reproductive organs? [/B].

Answered repeatedly and by the OP of this thread.

So people with intersex syndromes are intersex, not inter gender, because the chromosomes are biological sex.

I nowhere said, implied or suggested anything about intersex people having any connection to gender.

This is the science which you dont understand and irrespective of your dislike of Christians[/B]

Since you are entirely imagining some issue/discussion/debate about intersex people being or not being "inter gender", your statement is nonsense.[/QUOTE]

 

[Electric Skeptic]

So let's see if I understand you correctly. A person with XY chromosomes and male genitalia is biologically a male but could be a gender female, correct? So they retain their biological sex and can be a gender female. And someone could be a biological male and be a gender male. The same is true in the other direction correct?

Yup.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

Do you actually think people don't "get" what you are saying?

They obviously don't. BMS is still asking in this thread the same question that the OP answers at length

Are you so hard of understanding that you don't "get" it's about you people trying to bend the law and society towards your many, many gender details?

You are confusing the intent of the OP. It is not about the law; it is about gender identity and an attempt to explain it to and for the people whose questions repeatedly demonstrate that they do not know what it is.

No one would care if you just talked among yourselves, one two spirit cis-something to another just regular gay dude sharing pronoun theory.
But no...

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

I'm sorry, but this is all just a bunch of nonsense and you are playing into the wokeness that is now infecting our society. I reject this "gender fluidity" idea that was just made up. There are just two sexes (male and female) and two genders (male and female). One is either one or the other and such a thing is established at birth.

Thanks for your opinion. It is wrong as a matter of fact; consult the psychiatrists and psychologists who are vastly more educated, trained and experienced in this and allied matters than you or I.

 

[Electric Skeptic]

They want to shove it done peoples throats but actually get ticked off when people say they don't want it shoved down their throats

You're talking about Christianity, right?

 

[Nedsk]

Yup.

Ok very good. So two more questions please. "Woman" refers to gender so when a person says they are a woman what does that mean? I know it refers to gender but by declaring themselves as a woman, what is that?

Second, should people who are biological males but gender women be allowed to compete against biological females regardless if those females are men or women?