Is Sin/Evil A Created “Thing”… (By God or By Man)?

[American Gothic]

"God is not the author of evil, but He is the creator of the Author of evil."
- Arnold Fruchtenbaum

 

[Theo1689]

1. Do you believe that whenever we sin, we do so at God's behest, IOW, do you believe that God causes/forces us to sin (if that's not it, then please tell me what you believe instead .. thanks ) and ...​

God does not "force" us to do anything.
We do so WILLINGLY.

There's no one going, "No, God, please don't make me murder my wife, I don't want to!". They do it because they DO want to, and they have no recognition of God's involvement.

But yes, God directs all things.
God directed Joseph's brothers to sell him into slavery (Gen. 50:20).
God directed Assyria to attack Israel (Isa. 10:5-7).
God caused the Romans and the Jews to murder Jesus (Acts 4:27-28).

2. If that truly is the case (that God ~is~ the Author/Cause of sin, and that He actually forces us to sin) how can He escape being labeled the Author and proximate Cause of sin, ​

As Gen. 50:20 says, "God intended it for good".
I don't believe sin is based on acontextual physical action, but upon intent.
To the brothers, they intended it for evil.
But God intended it for good. It is not a sin to do good.

and as some sort of maniacal Monster as well, seeing that He sends people to spend eternity in Hell/the Lake of Fire for something that He forced them to do ​

The ad homs are coming out, and they seem very arbitrary.
In what way is God "maniacal"?
In what way is God a "Monster"?
And do you really think you are in a sufficient position to judge your Creator? Do you have enough information and context do so?

Rom. 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Apparently Paul had to deal with anti-Calvinists back in the first century.

Rom. 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

And one last thing... God didn't "force" anyone... Sinners WILLINGLY engage in sin, they revel in it. God has no need to "force" them to do anything.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So you would consider “the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets” an “evil work” because it produced lying prophets, as the result, contrary to God’s will?

(Assuming you believe lying is contrary to God’s will and described as sin)


“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”” (1Ki 22:21-23)

…

What makes you thing that the result was contrary to God's will??

 

[fltom]

We were discussing your misunderstanding of God’s “loving just nature” in Gods interaction with Satan, not Job. Why the deflection? Stay on track fltom. You can do it.

You have not shown any misunderstanding

and if there be misunderstanding it would be yours as you fo not understand God's love or his justice

Again…



So of course God would never put Job’s name in the mind of a serial tormentor when Satan could not find anyone to torment right?

I mean if a man did this to his own child of course you would still call that an act of a “loving just nature” correct?

No… why? Because it has to do with “transgression of a law” and nothing to do with “natures”.



God can determine that Job be the target of Satin by saying “Have you considered my servant Job” fully knowing the result of that act…

… but God did not stop there. God knew the brutal results when he said to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.” (Job 1:12)

And he also knew the results when he said again “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”” (Job 2:5-6)

If man pointed a serial tormentor at his own child and said “do what you want to him”, knowing the result of that action, you would call it an evil act… so how can you call the exact same act “loving and just” when God does it?

If fltom can’t answer this then fltom will have made it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about.

Have you forgotten the end of the story

Job had more in the end than in the beginning

You do not know what you are talking about

with this Job diversion

Can you disagree with the following?

Of course God cannot go against his loving just nature

And that is why determination is false

 

[Sketo]

Have you forgotten the end of the story

We were discussing your misunderstand of God’s interaction with Satan at the beginning, not the end. Why the deflection? Stay on track fltom. You can do it.

fltom has now made it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about by moving the spotlight away from Gods interaction with Satan at the beginning to…

Job had more in the end than in the beginning

So fltom says it’s ok for you, in the beginning, to point a serial killer to your son knowing that the killer is going to do many evils, including kill your 10 grandchildren, as long as you have also planned to adopt 15 children to give back to your son in the end…

To hear Tyler Vila (Freed Thinker Podcast) and Collin (Consistent Calvinism Podcast) discuss fltom’s ridiculous deflection check out the 4 min clip here.

…

 

[Sketo]

So you would consider “the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets” an “evil work” because it produced lying prophets, as the result, contrary to God’s will?

(Assuming you believe lying is contrary to God’s will and described as sin)


“Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’ And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”” (1Ki 22:21-23)

What makes you thing that the result was contrary to God's will??

Then you agree that “the prophets lying” was God’s will?

…

 

[Tercon]

The Problem Of Evil

If you believe sin is a thing created out of nothing, then your understanding contains at least 2 problems you must deal with…

---

Problem 1: Scripture states that all “things” that are created were created by God… not man.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Co 8:6)

“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:3)

Eph 1:11 “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”

---

Problem 2: How could man add any thing to the “all things created/made by God” without contradicting the verses above?

How can anything, other than God, add to the list of “All Things” that are only possible with God? (See John 1:3 above)

How is “All” plus “more” not a contradiction?

…CCS

Sin is to miss the mark of truth and reality.

Evil and sin only resides in unbelieving minds, because it is only a unbelieving mind that the truth and reality can be rejected and denied, it is a rejection of the means by which God makes Himself known to only believing minds.

 

[Kampioen]

.

God can determine that Job be the target of Satin by saying “Have you considered my servant Job” fully knowing the result of that act…

… but God did not stop there. God knew the brutal results when he said to Satan “Behold, all that he has is in your hand. Only against him do not stretch out your hand.” So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.” (Job 1:12)

And he also knew the results when he said again “Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.”” (Job 2:5-6)

If man pointed a serial tormentor at his own child and said “do what you want to him”, knowing the result of that action, you would call it an evil act… so how can you call the exact same act “loving and just” when God does it?

Some things God does seem grievous but God doesn't doing anything to cause a libertarian righteous man's eternal Demise. A man doing the same deeds intends demise and thus sins.

 

[Sketo]

God doesn't doing anything to cause a libertarian righteous man's eternal Demise.

Are you really that clueless about your own view…

He created them… that is, at minimum, a Determinative cause of the end result.

Even in your view God, at the very least is “A CAUSE” of all things that happen in creation by the mere fact that he created when he did not have to.

If God chose not to create then no one would die.
If God chose not to create then no one would sin.
If God chose not to create then no one would be in eternal conscious torment.
God chose to create, knowing the result of his own actions.

God did not consult with them before he created them.
God did not ask: “I know that if I create you, you will be one of the ones that hate me and reject me and end up in hell for eternity… umm do you still want to be created?”… No, they did not “choose” to be created when, where, or how they were. God “chose” for them knowing the results of his own actions.

God could have chose to create them differently, to different parents, in a different part of the world, or even not creating them at all…

The fact that you can not grasp this simple concept is baffling.

...

 

[Kampioen]

Are you really that clueless about your own view…

He created them… that is, at minimum, a Determinative cause of the end result.

Even in your view God, at the very least is “A CAUSE” of all things that happen in creation by the mere fact that he created when he did not have to.

But if God even randomly tossed a coin it doesn't mean the causal outcome wasn't random.

If God chose not to create then no one would die.
If God chose not to create then no one would sin.
If God chose not to create then no one would be in eternal conscious torment.
God chose to create, knowing the result of his own actions.

God apparently values libertarian choice more than He does sin, so He would go ahead and create it.

God did not consult with them before he created them.
God did not ask: “I know that if I create you, you will be one of the ones that hate me and reject me and end up in hell for eternity… umm do you still want to be created?”… No, they did not “choose” to be created when, where, or how they were. God “chose” for them knowing the results of his own actions.

God could have chose to create them differently, to different parents, in a different part of the world, or even not creating them at all…

If God created them to different parents they would be someone else.

The fact that you can not grasp this simple concept is baffling.

And the fact that you cannot grasp the simple concept that your philosophic deism is what gives God no other choice than to give us no other choice is baffling.

 

[shnarkle]

The Problem Of Evil

If you believe sin is a thing created out of nothing, then your understanding contains at least 2 problems you must deal with…

---

Problem 1: Scripture states that all “things” that are created were created by God… not man.

“For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.” (Col 1:16)

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

“yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.” (1Co 8:6)

“All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:3)

Eph 1:11 “having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”

---

Problem 2: How could man add any thing to the “all things created/made by God” without contradicting the verses above?

How can anything, other than God, add to the list of “All Things” that are only possible with God? (See John 1:3 above)

How is “All” plus “more” not a contradiction?

…CCS

Sin, and evil are not things that are created to begin with. They are subjective judgments. They exist within the realm of ideas. One cannot point to objective evil due to the fact that one can only have knowledge of evil, and knowledge is the currency of ideas and the intellect.

So while God figuratively creates the tree of knowledge of good and evil, he doesn't create good or evil.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Then you agree that “the prophets lying” was God’s will?

…

Apparently so -

 

[Sketo]

Are you really that clueless about your own view…

He created them… that is, at minimum, a Determinative cause of the end result.

Even in your view God, at the very least is “A CAUSE” of all things that happen in creation by the mere fact that he created when he did not have to.

If God chose not to create then no one would die.
If God chose not to create then no one would sin.
If God chose not to create then no one would be in eternal conscious torment.
God chose to create, knowing the result of his own actions.

God did not consult with them before he created them.
God did not ask: “I know that if I create you, you will be one of the ones that hate me and reject me and end up in hell for eternity… umm do you still want to be created?”… No, they did not “choose” to be created when, where, or how they were. God “chose” for them knowing the results of his own actions.

God could have chose to create them differently, to different parents, in a different part of the world, or even not creating them at all…

The fact that you can not grasp this simple concept is baffling.

God apparently values libertarian choice more than He does sin, so He would go ahead and create it...

… knowing the end results of that action.

So you believe God values a “vapors breath” of your assumed “libertarian choice”, plus eternity in hell, more than not creating them in the first place? ??‍
How you can call that “loving” is baffling.

Spoiler: Click here.

You do realize, even in your view, no one is “libertarian” from God’s known results right?

Now you have admitted that your view has God dooming people from the womb.

If God created them to different parents they would be someone else.

They would also not be in hell which is the whole point…

Apparently you believe God has no other choice than to give them no other life except for one that ends in hell for eternity. ??‍

Sounds like you are the one “limiting God”.

…

 

[fltom]

fltom said:
Have you forgotten the end of the story

We were discussing your misunderstand of God’s interaction with Satan at the beginning, not the end. Why the deflection? Stay on track fltom. You can do it.

No we were discussing how Calvinist minimises both love and justice of God

Your joob argument was a diversioin

Job was not determined to be an unbeliever and destined to hell because of God's determination



fltom has now made it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about by moving the spotlight away from Gods interaction with Satan at the beginning to…

fltom said:
Job had more in the end than in the beginning

So fltom says it’s ok for you, in the beginning, to point a serial killer to your son knowing that the killer is going to do many evils, including kill your 10 grandchildren, as long as you have also planned to adopt 15 children to give back to your son in the end…

To hear Tyler Vila (Freed Thinker Podcast) and Collin (Consistent Calvinism Podcast) discuss fltom’s ridiculous deflection check out the 4 min clip here.

Your theology differs how

What is your defense?

Or are you trying to prove God is unloving and unjust?

In your theology God determines eternal death for most of mankind

however, there is no biblical evidence that those of Job's house suffered eternal death

You live in a glass house, and you are trying to throw stones?

No other theology makes God as unloving and unjust as does Calvinism

 

[Sketo]

We were discussing your misunderstand of God’s interaction with Satan at the beginning, not the end. Why the deflection? Stay on track fltom. You can do it.


fltom has now made it obvious that he does not know what he is talking about by moving the spotlight away from Gods interaction with Satan at the beginning to…

fltom said: “Job had more in the end than in the beginning”

So fltom says it’s ok for you, in the beginning, to point a serial killer to your son knowing that the killer is going to do many evils, including kill your 10 grandchildren, as long as you have also planned to adopt 15 children to give back to your son in the end…

To hear Tyler Vila (Freed Thinker Podcast) and Collin (Consistent Calvinism Podcast) discuss fltom’s ridiculous deflection check out the 4 min clip here.

…

Fltom said:
Your theology differs how

What is your defense?

This is fltom deflecting with a You Too Fallacy because he has no clue how to answer.

Fltom said:
Or are you trying to prove God is unloving and unjust?

Are you, fltom, not able to explain, in your view, how God can remain “loving and just” while taking an action that would be described as “unloving and unjust” for a creature under “the law”? Calvinism has the answers but fltom has no clue and this is why he deflects by moving the spotlight away from God’s interaction with Satan.

If anyone is interested in the Consistent Calvinist answer to the Problem of Evil here is the 17min explanation… Click here!


…

 

[Theo1689]

Jeremiah 7:31
They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom so they could burn their sons and daughters in the fire--something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind.

These passages have been addressed over and over again, but you keep bringing them up. Why? Are you even aware of what the Calvinist response is? If you don't, don't you think that's a problem?

You interpret it:
"Something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind [to burn their sons and daughters]".

We interpret it:
"Something I never commanded, nor did it even enter My mind [to command it]".

Not only is the Calvinist interpretation perfectly reasonable, but your interpretation denies God's omniscience, so it needs to be summarily rejected.

 

[Kampioen]

edit

God by nature does have limited libertarian options.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean God planned people to go to hell. Some just libertarianly do. But a libertarian outcome is just, so God isn't moral bound to root out creating the libertarian known hellbound.

But your view has God philosophically fatefully deism-ed with no other thought or choice or possibility but to create us with no other choice or thought but what He unconditionally meticulously predetermined. Correct?

 

[SovereignGrace]

“Blessed is that man who has done with chance, who never speaks of luck, but believes from the least even to the greatest, all things are ordained of the Lord.”

Charles Spurgeon

 

[Deuteronomy]

Yes.

Hello eternomade, first off, I'm sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

As for your reply to me, thank you for being so clear about your beliefs (you replied "yes" in this case to my first question .. about your belief that God is the Author/Cause of sin, and that He forces us to sin because it is His sovereign will that we do so).

If this is true however, then why does He continue His mighty work in us to sanctify us/to make us more Christlike (less and less sinful/more and more righteous) throughout all of our days here .. e.g. Philippians 1:6) This would also mean (would it not?) that God is continually acting to thwart His own will, by causing us to sin on the one hand while, at the same time, working to stop us from doing so on the other

For instance (concerning the latter thought):

1 Corinthians 10​

13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.​

We are also commanded to "resist the devil" (James 4:7) by putting on the "full armor" of God, and by taking our sinful thoughts/temptations "captive" (to avoid falling for them and then falling into sin) ... 2 Corinthians 10:5; Ephesians 6:10-17. We are also commanded to study/treasure/hide God's word in our minds/hearts to keep our way pure before Him in this life/to always be able to say "no" to sin (with the Holy Spirit's help, of course).

For that matter, why would God give us new natures (new hearts/new spirits) and the Holy Spirit to cause us to walk in His ways/to obey His laws/ordinances/statutes .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27, if His sovereign will and intention for us from the get-go was for us to sin

It makes it seem like He is fighting against Himself

Thanks

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy

Psalm 119​

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Thy word.​

11 Thy word I have treasured/hidden in my heart, that I may not sin against Thee.​

​

 

[Deuteronomy]

And one last thing... God didn't "force" anyone... Sinners WILLINGLY engage in sin, they revel in it. God has no need to "force" them to do anything.

Hello Theo1689, I agree with you about this, but the points that I was making/questions that I was asking (in the post that you replied to of mine) were made in reply to something that member "Eternomade" had said, and I have found that he does NOT agree with us. Please read through his short Post #40 and you'll see (I have just made my first reply to Eternomade's post #40 above in Post #61, at the top of this page).

I asked for his help to make sure that I was correctly understanding what he believed before replying to him further, but after reading his reply and yours, it seems to me that you two may also have something to discuss

God bless you!!

~Deuteronomy