Works Relation to Salvation

[Icyspark]

For a number of people there seems to be some confusion as to why they should observe the Sabbath. Aside from the fact that its part of the Ten Commandment covenant in which the command itself says we are to "Remember the Sabbath day"; Aside from the fact that the Sabbath provides all humans with a day of physical rest; Aside from the fact that each Sabbath is to be observed in honor of Jesus creating the heavens and the Earth; Aside from the fact that God says we're to call the Sabbath a delight; Aside from the fact that Jesus said that the Sabbath was "made for human beings"; Aside from the fact that Jesus, the apostles, Paul and Gentiles all observed the Sabbath; I guess there's really no reason at all ::shrugs::

But let's set all of that aside and consider what Jesus says about salvation:

Matthew 5:27-30​

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

• Jesus quotes from the Ten Commandment covenant: "You shall not commit adultery."
• Jesus magnifies the law and equates adultery with looking lustfully at a woman.
• Jesus says it is better to pluck out your eye rather than to be guilty of adultery.
• Jesus says it is better to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Translation: LOSS OF SALVATION)

The act of adultery (or murder, or theft, or +7) is not what denies salvation. It merely reveals your lack of love for the One you claim to love. God says, "Those that honor Me, I will honor." Do you know where that quote is found in the Bible? Go look it up sometime. It's very enlightening.

So, what do you think? According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?

For those of you who are inclined to reject, deny or abolish the words of Jesus I suggest you take the following text into account:

Mark 8:38​

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”​

And also these verses:

Luke 6:46-49​

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”​

And this passage:

John 12:47-50​

“If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken. I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”​

But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief? Let's see:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ​

Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.] Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! One of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist? Probably not, but could it be that if you've ever used that legalist term against someone I'm surmising you probably weren't applying it consistently. If you were I'd bet that Paul wouldn't pass your muster.

Again, works don't earn our salvation--works merely validate our claim that we love Jesus.

Paul says, "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you—unless, of course, you fail the test?" Your works reveal whether your faith is real.

James very succinctly explains that faith without works is dead (James 2:14-26). If you claim you love Jesus, yet don't do what He says, then your faith is dead.

John 14:15-21 records Jesus saying the following:

“If you love me, keep my commands. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”​

Conversely, what about those who do not love Jesus? In verse 24 Jesus says, "Anyone who doesn't love me will not obey me."

It's amazing how many of the critics of Adventism have attempted to redact all of the commands of Jesus down to two commands which apparently they believe are open to interpretation. Love for your neighbor is not nebulous and left undefined. Jesus provided explicit commands in His Ten Commandment covenant which define how we are to love our neighbor. The covenant/agreement was canceled, but it was canceled based on the failure of the people to keep their end of the agreement. What they agreed to was obviously not the problem. "God found fault with the people," not with His perfect law.

• Since most critics believe there is no law then they have no need to "stop sinning," as Jesus, Peter, John and Paul all admonish Christians;
• Since formers have no law to identify sin, then they are sinless;
• Since they are "sinless," they have no need for grace;
• Since they have no need for grace, then they have no need for forgiveness;
• Since they have no need for forgiveness, then they have no need for a Savior;
• Since they have no need for a Savior, then they have no need for Jesus;
• If they have no need for Jesus, then we see who's truly in a cult. A religion without Jesus is empty and devoid of any eternal value.

Let's review what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

I pray this helps.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[Dizerner]

How would you define attempting to be justified by the Law?

 

[PeanutGallery]

Was this an oversight by the apostles to the Gentiles, when they forgot to include keeping the Sabbath?

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

 

[Icyspark]

How would you define attempting to be justified by the Law?

Hi Dizerner,

Please, feel free to answer your own question. And then, if you have the time, I'd love it if you addressed the opening post.

Thanks!

 

[Icyspark]

Was this an oversight by the apostles to the Gentiles, when they forgot to include keeping the Sabbath?

Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Acts 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Hi PeanutGallery,

Please, feel free to answer your own question. And then, if you have the time, I'd love it if you addressed the opening post.

Thanks!

 

[Icyspark]

Let's review what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

Here's another scriptural passage to consider:

Matthew 18:21-35​

Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”​

​

“No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!​

​

“Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.​

​

“But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.​

​

“But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.​

​

“His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.​

​

“When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.​

​

“That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

Here's what the opening post had plus what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• NEW We've established that Jesus says that if you don't forgive you will be unforgiven. / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist? Or to use Dizerner's vernacular, attempting to be justified by the Law?

I pray this helps.

 

[Common Tater]

Here's another scriptural passage to consider:

Matthew 18:21-35​

Then Peter came to him and asked, “Lord, how often should I forgive someone who sins against me? Seven times?”​

​

“No, not seven times,” Jesus replied, “but seventy times seven!​

​

“Therefore, the Kingdom of Heaven can be compared to a king who decided to bring his accounts up to date with servants who had borrowed money from him. In the process, one of his debtors was brought in who owed him millions of dollars. He couldn’t pay, so his master ordered that he be sold—along with his wife, his children, and everything he owned—to pay the debt.​

​

“But the man fell down before his master and begged him, ‘Please, be patient with me, and I will pay it all.’ Then his master was filled with pity for him, and he released him and forgave his debt.​

​

“But when the man left the king, he went to a fellow servant who owed him a few thousand dollars. He grabbed him by the throat and demanded instant payment.​

​

“His fellow servant fell down before him and begged for a little more time. ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay it,’ he pleaded. But his creditor wouldn’t wait. He had the man arrested and put in prison until the debt could be paid in full.​

​

“When some of the other servants saw this, they were very upset. They went to the king and told him everything that had happened. Then the king called in the man he had forgiven and said, ‘You evil servant! I forgave you that tremendous debt because you pleaded with me. Shouldn’t you have mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you?’ Then the angry king sent the man to prison to be tortured until he had paid his entire debt.​

​

“That’s what my heavenly Father will do to you if you refuse to forgive your brothers and sisters from your heart.”​

Here's what the opening post had plus what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• NEW We've established that Jesus says that if you don't forgive you will be unforgiven. / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist? Or to use Dizerner's vernacular, attempting to be justified by the Law?

I pray this helps.

“For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20 NASV

Wow, and the Pharisees were scrupulous in observing every jot and tittle of the law. What is Jesus telling us here? I think I know.


For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “THE PERSON WHO PERFORMS THEM WILL LIVE BY THEM.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 5:10-14 NASB

So even those who follow the Law to the letter are not justified. What chance then, do we have in being saved? We believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and we claim his justification as our own.

Galatians is a book Adventists need to read and reread and reread, and Chapter 3 in particular.

 

[Icyspark]

“For I say to you that unless your righteousness far surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:20 NASV

Wow, and the Pharisees were scrupulous in observing every jot and tittle of the law. What is Jesus telling us here? I think I know.


For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.” Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “THE RIGHTEOUS ONE WILL LIVE BY FAITH.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “THE PERSON WHO PERFORMS THEM WILL LIVE BY THEM.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Galatians 5:10-14 NASB

So even those who follow the Law to the letter are not justified. What chance then, do we have in being saved? We believe that Jesus Christ is our Savior and we claim his justification as our own.

Galatians is a book Adventists need to read and reread and reread, and Chapter 3 in particular.

Hi Common ?,

Thanks for your observations. However, none of your observations actually dealt with any of the texts I referenced. Because Paul seems to be someone whom many formers and critics of Adventism seem to think is their refuge for discussions such as these (see comment above about needing to "read and reread and reread" the book of Galatians, let's refer you back to the quote from Paul used in the opening post:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ​

Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.] Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! One of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

I'm pretty sure your misapplication of what Paul is saying in Galatians would condemn Paul in 1 Corinthians.

Also, according to you on another thread you indicated that you believe that Christian Gentiles are only required to abstain from those things listed in Acts 15 (apparently referring specifically to verse 28: food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality). But in order to adhere to this strict reading of Acts you have to turn a blind eye to all the other New Testament texts which do not maintain such a limited viewpoint. In particular you have to ignore, reject and/or deny the very quote above from the "apostle to the Gentiles." But perhaps only the book of Galatians is a permissible reference for this discussion? Well then, let's see what this same Paul says in that book:

Galatians 5:16-25​

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

​

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.​

Again, your strict reading and interpretation of Paul would have us conclude that either he is wishy washy in the beliefs he's presenting, or he's viewing obedience in the same sense that Adventists understand it (i.e. works reveal whether our faith is real). Paul certainly doesn't allow for his Gentile readers to consider themselves "in the faith" by merely observing the 4 restrictions mentioned in Acts 15:28. The "apostle to the Gentiles" piles on numerous additional things those who are walking by the Spirit will not be doing. Not only that, but he ties them to not inheriting the kingdom of God. TRANSLATION: LOSS OF SALVATION

I pray this helps.

 

[Dizerner]

Hi Dizerner,

Please, feel free to answer your own question. And then, if you have the time, I'd love it if you addressed the opening post.

Thanks!

The question DID address the opening post, but you don't care.

And you don't even care enough to answer a simple question.

That's sad, and to me, makes me think you are not sincere.

 

[Icyspark]

The question DID address the opening post, but you don't care.

And you don't even care enough to answer a simple question.

That's sad, and to me, makes me think you are not sincere.

Hi Dizerner,

Your asking the question, "How would you define attempting to be justified by the Law?" is not addressing the substance of the opening post. The FACT that you elected to ask a question instead of addressing a single issue raised in the OP indicates--using your own rationale--that "you are not sincere." Your own words condemn you.

Which of the following questions from the OP did you answer with your own question?

• According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?
• But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief?
• Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist?
• For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

The answer is none. But again, using your own rationale, "you don't care enough to answer a simple question." Your own words condemn you.

Your question responded to the OP, but it didn't address a single point made, a single text quoted, a single question asked. But again, using your own words, "you don't care."

Go ahead and answer my questions above. If you can't, then "That's sad."

 

[Johan]

Let's review what we've learned today:

• We've established that Jesus says to cut out your eye rather than to look at a woman lustfully and go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Jesus says to cut off your hand and throw it away rather than to go to hell. / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you worship idols you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you commit adultery you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL
• We've established that Paul says if you steal you "WILL NOT inherit the Kingdom of God" / SALVATIONAL

For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

So how many body parts have you got left after obeying Jesus in this regard?

 

[Dizerner]

Go ahead and answer my questions above. If you can't, then "That's sad."

Your logic is faulty, you're trying to steal the logic I introduced and turn it back, but it's not an equitable scenario.

If you really cared about me answering your question, since the initiative—the post and inquiry—is yours and not mine—you would make the attempt to interact.

If one is making a valid point or one is bringing out a relevant thought, questions are powerful tools as you yourself here admitted to using them and expecting an answer.

But then you refuse to do what you expect others to do, and that, my friend, is not being consistent or sincere.

I'd gladly answer your questions if you actually lived up to your own standards and expectations, showing an honest heart.

As it stands now, you have twisted and perverted the truth and tried to paint the opposition as the one doing what you, yourself, do.

That's not caring, that's a double standard.

 

[Icyspark]

Your logic is faulty, you're trying to steal the logic I introduced and turn it back, but it's not an equitable scenario.

If you really cared about me answering your question, since the initiative—the post and inquiry—is yours and not mine—you would make the attempt to interact.

If one is making a valid point or one is bringing out a relevant thought, questions are powerful tools as you yourself here admitted to using them and expecting an answer.

But then you refuse to do what you expect others to do, and that, my friend, is not being consistent or sincere.

I'd gladly answer your questions if you actually lived up to your own standards and expectations, showing an honest heart.

As it stands now, you have twisted and perverted the truth and tried to paint the opposition as the one doing what you, yourself, do.

That's not caring, that's a double standard.

Hi Dizerner,

Consistency and sincerity demand that you live by your own expressed standards which thus far you've only insisted that I abide by. You do not get to respond to a thread by ignoring everything that the opening post says and instead redirect the focus to a topic you wish to discuss. That's pretty brazen and not how this works. That my friend is your double standard and you don't get the luxury of deflecting it onto me without my exposing it for the world to see.

THIRD TIME:

• According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?
• But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief?
• Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist?
• For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

God bless.

 

[Icyspark]

So how many body parts have you got left after obeying Jesus in this regard?

Resorting to trolling now?

 

[Johan]

Resorting to trolling now?

Trolling? No, it was a question out of curiosity. Since you apparently believe in self-salvation by means of attaining sinlessness, surely you must have taken Jesus' commands about self-mutilation seriously. Why did you quote those verses otherwise?

 

[Icyspark]

Trolling? No, it was a question out of curiosity. Since you apparently believe in self-salvation by means of attaining sinlessness, surely you must have taken Jesus' commands about self-mutilation seriously. Why did you quote those verses otherwise?

Hi Johan,

It appears to me that you are attempting to be dismissive of the words of Jesus apparently due to once again elevating me as your example instead of looking to Jesus Christ as your Example.

But let's set all of that aside and consider what Jesus says about salvation:

Matthew 5:27-30​

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

Instead of grappling with WHY Jesus is so severe in His condemnation of sin, you instead wish to reframe the issue away from Jesus and what He says and attempt mitigation of His words by endeavoring to show my inconsistent application. This is a frequent tactic of critics when they have no rebuttal to the biblical facts presented. Critics prefer the soft target of a human who dares to quote from Scripture and apply it in its normative sense while tacitly rejecting the Hard Target of the One whose words the human has quoted.

It's Jesus who indicates the extreme severity of His view of sin, not me. You might want to fixate on Him and His words rather than being dismissive and cavalier of something He relates directly to salvation. Again, He said it, not me.

Also from the opening post I shared another quote from the Hard Target:

Mark 8:38​

If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”​

Your words give every indication being ashamed of Jesus and His words. Why is that? Don't you realize that He will be ashamed of you when He comes in His Father's glory?

I pray this helps.

 

[Common Tater]

Hi Common ?,

Thanks for your observations. However, none of your observations actually dealt with any of the texts I referenced. Because Paul seems to be someone whom many formers and critics of Adventism seem to think is their refuge for discussions such as these (see comment above about needing to "read and reread and reread" the book of Galatians, let's refer you back to the quote from Paul used in the opening post:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ​

Don’t you realize that those who do wrong will not inherit the Kingdom of God? [Note that here Paul equates doing wrong with loss of salvation.] Don’t fool yourselves. Those who indulge in sexual sin, or who worship idols, or commit adultery, [Look at that! One of the Ten Commandments! And if Paul mentions one, of necessity he includes all ten.] or are male prostitutes, or practice homosexuality, or are thieves, or greedy people, or drunkards, or are abusive, or cheat people—none of these will inherit the Kingdom of God. Some of you were once like that. But you were cleansed; you were made holy; you were made right with God by calling on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.​

I'm pretty sure your misapplication of what Paul is saying in Galatians would condemn Paul in 1 Corinthians.

Also, according to you on another thread you indicated that you believe that Christian Gentiles are only required to abstain from those things listed in Acts 15 (apparently referring specifically to verse 28: food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality). But in order to adhere to this strict reading of Acts you have to turn a blind eye to all the other New Testament texts which do not maintain such a limited viewpoint. In particular you have to ignore, reject and/or deny the very quote above from the "apostle to the Gentiles." But perhaps only the book of Galatians is a permissible reference for this discussion? Well then, let's see what this same Paul says in that book:

Galatians 5:16-25​

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

​

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I WARN YOU, as I did before, that those who live like this will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.​

Again, your strict reading and interpretation of Paul would have us conclude that either he is wishy washy in the beliefs he's presenting, or he's viewing obedience in the same sense that Adventists understand it (i.e. works reveal whether our faith is real). Paul certainly doesn't allow for his Gentile readers to consider themselves "in the faith" by merely observing the 4 restrictions mentioned in Acts 15:28. The "apostle to the Gentiles" piles on numerous additional things those who are walking by the Spirit will not be doing. Not only that, but he ties them to not inheriting the kingdom of God. TRANSLATION: LOSS OF SALVATION

I pray this helps.

I was not referring to all of the admonitions that Paul said. I was referring specifically to what we gentile converts to Christianity were obligated to observe in regards to the Old Covenant Law. Essentially what James suggested was a reiteration of what are known as the Noahide Laws. These are the "laws" that the Jews considered universal and binding on all mankind. Yes, I know that these laws are not specifically stated as far as "Thou shalt" or "Thou shalt not", and I have done some reading in the Jewish literature as to how these laws were derived, the consensus being that the seven laws are implied in several different verses found in the Torah.

As far as your claim that because Paul mentioned one of the Ten Commandments, all ten are in force, no. Nine of the commandments are moral in nature and are clearly reiterated in the New Testament. Only the Fourth Commandment is not mentioned and this makes sense, as it is the sign of the covenant between God and Israel, and Israel alone, and is ceremonial in nature. A moral command is in effect 24/7/365, not 1/7th of the time. A moral law cannot be broken so that another law is obeyed, whereas the law regarding circumcision of a hebrew child on the eighth day, even if that day was the Sabbath, took precedence over the Fourth Commandment. You would be hard-pressed to argue that the law regarding circumcision is not ceremonial, especially in light of Acts 15. The Children of Israel marched around Jericho for seven days, one of which would have been a Sabbath and broke the Fourth Commandment and the other laws regarding it.

If you want to make the claim that Paul showed that the Fourth Commandment was still in effect because he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath "as was his custom", I've a question. We are told that the Christians met in the house church of Prisca and Aquilla in both Romans 16 and 1 Corinthians 16. Why was Paul attending the synagogue instead of teaching and worshiping with the Christians at the house church, if they were indeed meeting on the Sabbath? Or is it possible that it was his custom to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath, not because the Fourth Commandment was still in effect, but to try and convert Jews and Gentile proselytes to the Gospel and that he met with the house church on a different day, say the first day of the week when they met (Acts 20:7. 1 Corinthians 16:1-2).

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. 1 Corinthians 9:20-21 ESV

 

[Johan]

Hi Johan,

It appears to me that you are attempting to be dismissive of the words of Jesus apparently due to once again elevating me as your example instead of looking to Jesus Christ as your Example.

Dismissive? For the record, I do not believe that Jesus actually commanded His followers to practice self-mutilation. I have also not heard that Adventism suggests anything of the sort. So what do you mean by "dismissive"? The thing is that we are not discussing these things in an academic vacuum. Your posts are filled with explicit and implicit accusations against other Christians, and the common theme is that others make the Christian faith "too easy" and take sin lightly. So you do not simply offer an exegesis (I have not seen any exegesis at all in your posts when I come to think of it) and ask us to react to it, but you plainly accuse others of dismissing important parts of the Scriptures. For that reason, it is inevitable to be inquisitive about your own faith life. Do you practice what you preach? Because it would be quite pathetic (in the spirit of the Pharisees, even) if you accuse others of taking sin lightly while simultaneously being a habitual sinner yourself.

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (Matt. 23:4)

Instead of grappling with WHY Jesus is so severe in His condemnation of sin, you instead wish to reframe the issue away from Jesus and what He says and attempt mitigation of His words by endeavoring to show my inconsistent application. This is a frequent tactic of critics when they have no rebuttal to the biblical facts presented. Critics prefer the soft target of a human who dares to quote from Scripture and apply it in its normative sense while tacitly rejecting the Hard Target of the One whose words the human has quoted.

"Critics" of what? Adventism? A theological system that does not fit in anywhere. It is too legalistic to approach Evangelicalism and it is too boastful of its own existence to come closer to Catholicism. It merely exists and serves no purpose. Indeed, Jesus condemns sin, but not in the way that you insinuate. He died for our sins—not in order for us to sin, but because of the mere fact that we do sin. In the precious words of Charles Spurgeon: He did not die to make us savable, but to save us. Now, Jesus apparently told His disciples to practice self-mutilation if they discover that their limbs deceive them. Or did He? I guess you are content with "spiritualizing" His words to be saying that we should strive to resist sin. But that is not what that dramatic figure of speech means. Rather, it is a continuation of the lesson taught in the previous verses. Sin does not merely exist in the outward act. Also the act of thinking sinful thoughts is sin. So those who, like the Pharisees, have a limited view of what sin is, thinking that only its outwardly manifestation counts as sin, might as well cut off their limbs to (try to) prevent it!

It's Jesus who indicates the extreme severity of His view of sin, not me.

His view of sin was fully manifested on the cross. That was the price needed (and sufficient) for our salvation. Our own pathetic attempts at obedience amount to nothing in this regard. It is precisely because He does not take sin lightly that He came to save us.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Gal. 2:21)

 

[Dizerner]

Consistency and sincerity demand that you live by your own expressed standards

Your own words condemn you, since you do not live by them.

Let's say I AM a hypocrite—although your logic is faulty there, let's just say I am.

Does that make it okay for YOU to be?!

Apparently you think so.

THIRD TIME:

• According to Jesus, is there any correlation between what you do and your salvation?
• But maybe you think that Paul will go easier on your belief?
• Do you suppose Paul is a works-oriented legalist?
• For which one of these established biblical beliefs do you wish to condemn me as being a legalist?

1. Yes.
2. Paul & Jesus agree.
3. No.
4. I never said I did, I merely asked a question. You might be. You might not be.

 

[Icyspark]

Dismissive? For the record, I do not believe that Jesus actually commanded His followers to practice self-mutilation. I have also not heard that Adventism suggests anything of the sort. So what do you mean by "dismissive"? The thing is that we are not discussing these things in an academic vacuum. Your posts are filled with explicit and implicit accusations against other Christians, and the common theme is that others make the Christian faith "too easy" and take sin lightly. So you do not simply offer an exegesis (I have not seen any exegesis at all in your posts when I come to think of it) and ask us to react to it, but you plainly accuse others of dismissing important parts of the Scriptures. For that reason, it is inevitable to be inquisitive about your own faith life. Do you practice what you preach? Because it would be quite pathetic (in the spirit of the Pharisees, even) if you accuse others of taking sin lightly while simultaneously being a habitual sinner yourself.

They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (Matt. 23:4)

Hi Johan,

Yes, dismissive. You accuse me of not exegeting the text (I believe the passage is pretty self-explanatory), but you don't provide an exegesis of your own. Instead you seem to prefer to make ad hominem observations about the person who dares to quote the words of Jesus (i.e. he must be compared to the Pharisees, because who else would quote Jesus?). This too is a frequent tactic of critics when they cannot embrace the main and plain meaning of a text which contradicts a cherished, yet false belief, go after the person who quoted the Scripture.

Matthew 5:27-30​

“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.​

If even the devil were to quote the words of Jesus, would that somehow lessen the truth of Jesus's words? Absolutely not. Truth remains true no matter what saint or sinner speaks it. I am certainly a sinner, but I am not ashamed of speaking any or all the words of Jesus. Why are you?

It seems rather bizarre that you'd quote Jesus in Matthew 23:4 to refute the words of Jesus in Matthew 5:27-30, as if the mere mention of these latter verses qualifies the person quoting them to be considered a Pharisee.

"Critics" of what? Adventism? A theological system that does not fit in anywhere. It is too legalistic to approach Evangelicalism and it is too boastful of its own existence to come closer to Catholicism. It merely exists and serves no purpose. Indeed, Jesus condemns sin, but not in the way that you insinuate. He died for our sins—not in order for us to sin, but because of the mere fact that we do sin. In the precious words of Charles Spurgeon: He did not die to make us savable, but to save us. Now, Jesus apparently told His disciples to practice self-mutilation if they discover that their limbs deceive them. Or did He? I guess you are content with "spiritualizing" His words to be saying that we should strive to resist sin. But that is not what that dramatic figure of speech means. Rather, it is a continuation of the lesson taught in the previous verses. Sin does not merely exist in the outward act. Also the act of thinking sinful thoughts is sin. So those who, like the Pharisees, have a limited view of what sin is, thinking that only its outwardly manifestation counts as sin, might as well cut off their limbs to (try to) prevent it!

Apparently you're not just a critic of Adventism, but of those words of Jesus which you deem unquotable? That I have no problem quoting Jesus seems problematic to you. You criticize me for not exegeting the above passage, yet you haven't attempted to do what you decry. Why is that? Could it be that the words are self-explanatory and that for you to attempt to exegete these verses you'd have to redefine words to make it more in alignment with a predetermined paradigm? Your above comments are not an exegesis of the text, but are in actuality an eisegesis (or reading into the text your own ideas or bias).

His view of sin was fully manifested on the cross. That was the price needed (and sufficient) for our salvation. Our own pathetic attempts at obedience amount to nothing in this regard. It is precisely because He does not take sin lightly that He came to save us.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing! (Gal. 2:21)

Jesus didn't die on the cross to save us in our sin, but rather to save us from our sin. As I stated in the opening post: "works reveal whether your faith is real."

I pray this helps.