Why God isn't, can't become man?

There is nothing that you or I can do about things that happened thousands of years ago.
True.
I still feel like certain Jewish people haven't forgiven Christians for the past. Usually I find that if a topic keeps getting brought back up there's something that hasn't been forgiven.
I just don't know. And if I'm right in some way, I don't know the extent.
 
True.
I still feel like certain Jewish people haven't forgiven Christians for the past. Usually I find that if a topic keeps getting brought back up there's something that hasn't been forgiven.
I just don't know. And if I'm right in some way, I don't know the extent.
I understand what you are saying, and yes, for some Jews, they do not forgive. I'm going to do my best to explain to you why.

We speak of the 2000 years of persecution by Christians, but really in all honesty it was more like patches of good years and patches of bad years. Things would settle down, and Christian kings would even INVITE Jews into their countries, believing it would be good for business and prosperity of the land. It's just that things would never STAY good. Sooner or later, Jews would once more become scapegoats of that society. IOW we learned that even when things were good, the goodness was only temporary.

Consider how things improved for Jews after the Holocaust. Not that they were perfect. But better? Yes of course. Yet now, here we are in the equivalent of 1939 again. Antisemitism is sky high again, both verbal and violent. Fascists are being elected. As I write this, the FBI has released a report saying there are credible threats against Jewish synagogues. There are Jew-free areas on college campuses. The good times DO NOT LAST. The world always returns to its hatred of Jews.

Let's look at some of the anti-Semitic tropes. I would say that most Christians do not believe that the Jews are communally responsible for the death of Jesus. But some still believe this. Indeed, we have to deal with anti-Semitic Christianity right here in this chatroom all the time. It comes up REGULARLY in here that Jews "are a stiff necked people"--as if Christians aren't. Most churches abandoned Replacement Theology after the holocaust -- but not all, and we get Supersessionism all the time in this room.

It also becomes problematic that anti-Semitism exists in the very scriptures of Christians. You open the gospels and it's "The Jews this " and "The Jews that." You have the author of Matthew claiming that Jews said, "Let his blood be upon us and our children." You have the author of Hebrews saying that the covenant of the Jews is abrogated. Any complete repentance of Christians for Jew hatred would have to include a scouring of their sacred texts. As long as anti-Jewish sentiment is allowed to remain in the New Testament, there will be Christians who will use those verses to justify hatred of Jews.

So the issue becomes this -- how are we supposed to forgive the Church its Jew-hatred, when we can't trust that it is a thing of the past?

For myself, I try to go person by person, rather than deal with Christianity monolithically. I deeply appreciate your concern.
 
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I understand what you are saying, and yes, for some Jews, they do not forgive. I'm going to do my best to explain to you why.

We speak of the 2000 years of persecution by Christians, but really in all honesty it was more like patches of good years and patches of bad years. Things would settle down, and Christian kings would even INVITE Jews into their countries, believing it would be good for business and prosperity of the land. It's just that things would never STAY good. Sooner or later, Jews would once more become scapegoats of that society. IOW we learned that even when things were good, the goodness was only temporary.

Consider how things improved for Jews after the Holocaust. Not that they were perfect. But better? Yes of course. Yet now, here we are in the equivalent of 1939 again. Antisemitism is sky high again, both verbal and violent. Fascists are being elected. As I write this, the FBI has released a report saying there are credible threats against Jewish synagogues. There are Jew-free areas on college campuses. The good times DO NOT LAST. The world always returns to its hatred of Jews.

Let's look at some of the anti-Semitic tropes. I would say that most Christians do not believe that the Jews are communally responsible for the death of Jesus. But some still believe this. Indeed, we have to deal with anti-Semitic Christianity right here in this chatroom all the time. It comes up REGULARLY in here that Jews "are a stiff necked people"--as if Christians aren't. Most churches abandoned Replacement Theology after the holocaust -- but not all, and we get Supersessionism all the time in this room.

It also becomes problematic that anti-Semitism exists in the very scriptures of Christians. You open the gospels and it's "The Jews this " and "The Jews that." You have the author of Matthew claiming that Jews said, "Let his blood be upon us and our children." You have the author of Hebrews saying that the covenant of the Jews is abrogated. Any complete repentance of Christians for Jew hatred would have to include a scouring of their sacred texts. As long as anti-Jewish sentiment is allowed to remain in the New Testament, there will be Christians who will use those verses to justify hatred of Jews.

So the issue becomes this -- how are we supposed to forgive the Church its Jew-hatred, when we can't trust that it is a thing of the past?

For myself, I try to go person by person, rather than deal with Christianity monolithically. I deeply appreciate your concern.
Wow, sorry you have to go through that.
But... as much as I want to do right by other people, I know that I mess up. I'm thinking of one exchange where I said something irresponsible to a Jewish person and it ended the online conversation, and rightly so.
So it's a valid question to ask whether it's a thing of the past.
There will be people who will do good and there will be others who ruin it for everybody.
In terms of doing the right thing... all I got is Jesus, I got nothin else.

Like... .... Matthew was Jewish (so it seems by his writing style), and he was a tax collector. He had nothing either (in terms of righteousness), till he met Jesus. Even though he lived in poverty as a disciple and Apostle, he had Jesus and that was enough.
Through reading the gospels I learned that though I've sinned against God, over and over, and often in the same ways... God still forgives me... and I don't mentally get that kind of love. It's so much... YHWH is so big, and so is his love, and power, and holiness.
It helps me to appreciate the compassion of God when He revealed himself to Moshe in Exodus 34:6-7a
6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin..." (NASB)

So I try to forgive as He has forgiven me... gone through a long process in forgiving others. I couldn't have done it without Jesus.
 
Wow, sorry you have to go through that.
But... as much as I want to do right by other people, I know that I mess up. I'm thinking of one exchange where I said something irresponsible to a Jewish person and it ended the online conversation, and rightly so.
So it's a valid question to ask whether it's a thing of the past.
There will be people who will do good and there will be others who ruin it for everybody.
In terms of doing the right thing... all I got is Jesus, I got nothin else.

Like... .... Matthew was Jewish (so it seems by his writing style), and he was a tax collector. He had nothing either (in terms of righteousness), till he met Jesus. Even though he lived in poverty as a disciple and Apostle, he had Jesus and that was enough.
Through reading the gospels I learned that though I've sinned against God, over and over, and often in the same ways... God still forgives me... and I don't mentally get that kind of love. It's so much... YHWH is so big, and so is his love, and power, and holiness.
It helps me to appreciate the compassion of God when He revealed himself to Moshe in Exodus 34:6-7a
6 Then the LORD passed by in front of him and proclaimed, "The LORD, the LORD God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin..." (NASB)

So I try to forgive as He has forgiven me... gone through a long process in forgiving others. I couldn't have done it without Jesus.
Would you agree that God only forgives those who repent?
 
Kinda,
I would say that those who truly believe are forgiven, and repentance is evidence that we have true belief and are forgiven.

What's the background to your question?
Well, you said, "So I try to forgive as He has forgiven me." Since God requires repentance for forgiveness, so should you.

So are you saying above that those who do not believe in Jesus are not forgiven, even if we repent?
 
Well, you said, "So I try to forgive as He has forgiven me." Since God requires repentance for forgiveness, so should you.

So are you saying above that those who do not believe in Jesus are not forgiven, even if we repent?
Maybe it's best to say this difference. Which comes first, repentance or forgiveness? If I'm correct, your position is that a person repents and then they are forgiven. My position is that they are forgiven, and therefore they repent.
I haven't always given full repentance, yet he forgave me over and over.
Matthew 18:21-22 ~ 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
I used to be involved in pornography heavily, for a long time. I knew from an early age that it was wrong, but I couldn't stop, I just kept going "back to the bottle". There were times where God would directly discipline me, and there were times where He just let it slide and bless me. I had not fully repented of it in those decades. I tried, but never did.
It wasn't until very recently where I kicked the addiction, by God's grace and power. Not only did he prevent me from looking at it when times were rough, but He gave me His law that I've hidden in my heart that I might not sin against Him. He gave me His wisdom, so that I would learn about the wicked adulteress in Proverbs 2, 5, 6, and 7, and also who wisdom is... that she fears the Lord and to fear the Lord is to hate evil (Pro 8:13).
And lots of prayer by me and those who keep me accountable. I'm still repenting of it, it's a struggle, but I've never had this freedom before, and it's so good.
But why was I forgiven? I was forgiven, not because I repented, as I kept going back and still struggle in my thoughts with this area. I was forgiven on the basis of the atonement that Jesus made when he became the sacrifice for sins.
If it were on the basis of repentance, I wouldn't be forgiven, and nobody would because we all sin in many ways, even in ways we don't know (as has been pointed out to me here). My only hope is found in Jesus. Before God, I'm guilty and deserve his wrath.
 
Maybe it's best to say this difference. Which comes first, repentance or forgiveness? If I'm correct, your position is that a person repents and then they are forgiven. My position is that they are forgiven, and therefore they repent.
All are already forgiven - at this point, only Unbelief is keeping the already condemned condemned
 
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All are already forgiven - at this point, only Unbelief is keeping the already condemned condemned
Psalm 32:1 Of David. A maskil. Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
2 Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against him and in whose spirit is no deceit.
You would apply this Psalm to those in eternal torment.
 
Maybe it's best to say this difference. Which comes first, repentance or forgiveness? If I'm correct, your position is that a person repents and then they are forgiven. My position is that they are forgiven, and therefore they repent.
so your position makes absolutely no sense to me. are you advancing some sort of predestination theory?

I haven't always given full repentance, yet he forgave me over and over.
Matthew 18:21-22 ~ 21 Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" 22 Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
I used to be involved in pornography heavily, for a long time. I knew from an early age that it was wrong, but I couldn't stop, I just kept going "back to the bottle". There were times where God would directly discipline me, and there were times where He just let it slide and bless me. I had not fully repented of it in those decades. I tried, but never did.
It wasn't until very recently where I kicked the addiction, by God's grace and power. Not only did he prevent me from looking at it when times were rough, but He gave me His law that I've hidden in my heart that I might not sin against Him. He gave me His wisdom, so that I would learn about the wicked adulteress in Proverbs 2, 5, 6, and 7, and also who wisdom is... that she fears the Lord and to fear the Lord is to hate evil (Pro 8:13).
And lots of prayer by me and those who keep me accountable. I'm still repenting of it, it's a struggle, but I've never had this freedom before, and it's so good.
But why was I forgiven? I was forgiven, not because I repented, as I kept going back and still struggle in my thoughts with this area. I was forgiven on the basis of the atonement that Jesus made when he became the sacrifice for sins.
If it were on the basis of repentance, I wouldn't be forgiven, and nobody would because we all sin in many ways, even in ways we don't know (as has been pointed out to me here). My only hope is found in Jesus. Before God, I'm guilty and deserve his wrath.
addiction is not your normal thing. I understand that a person may fight against a compulsion their whole lives. That doesn't mean you can't do what you can. On the other hand, if you think you can simply have a carte blanche to sin because God has forgiven you, I can't say more strongly how much I disagree with that.
 
Blessed is he whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered.
Blessed is the man whose sin the LORD does not count against

You would apply this Psalm to those in eternal torment.
all sins but a specific Belief issue have been dealt with already
 
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so your position makes absolutely no sense to me. are you advancing some sort of predestination theory?
It can apply to predestination I guess... but if I'm going to be technical it's more imputed righteousness and substitutionary atonement as the grounds for me to be forgiven as opposed to my own acts. I could explain that a little more if you need me to (hopefully explain it well!).
But to put it simply, it's like what John wrote in his first letter: 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." I confess, God forgives, and then He works in me to repent.

addiction is not your normal thing. I understand that a person may fight against a compulsion their whole lives. That doesn't mean you can't do what you can. On the other hand, if you think you can simply have a carte blanche to sin because God has forgiven you, I can't say more strongly how much I disagree with that.
Carte blanche means to have freedom to do "x". The freedom is to not sin. If I sin, then I'm bound and still a slave.
I hope that I haven't given even a hint that I would argue that I can carte blanche sin because I'm forgiven. I did mention that at times God would directly discipline me.
But, regarding what I underlined above. When David slew Goliath, did not David give glory to God for this? 2 Samuel 22, especially verse 35 He trains my hands for battle; my arms can bend a bow of bronze.
I can do all things, but only as God strengthens me.
I thank you for your kind words, but I know me. I've lived with this addiction for decades. I give glory to God for the strength he has given me.
 
It can apply to predestination I guess... but if I'm going to be technical it's more imputed righteousness and substitutionary atonement as the grounds for me to be forgiven as opposed to my own acts. I could explain that a little more if you need me to (hopefully explain it well!).
But to put it simply, it's like what John wrote in his first letter: 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." I confess, God forgives, and then He works in me to repent.
This is obviously just simply a matter that we are different religions. You are a Christian, which means the New Testament is your authority for your beliefs. As a Jew, I am grounded in Torah, with the additional texts of the Prophets and the Writings, as well as the Oral Torah (Talmud) and the writings of the sages. There are just going to be some things we disagree on. You have quoted 1 John 1:9, which is fine if you are simply communicating your own beliefs. But such a text will have no impact on me, as I don't accept the New Testament. I simply reject the idea of imputed righteousness and substitutionary atonement.

I do believe that the difference between the righteous and the wicked is that the righteous repent when we stumble and the wicked do not. Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

Further, I believe that each man is responsible for his own sin -- no one can take responsibility for my sins but me, not you, not Jewjitzu, not Jesus... Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.

So no, I can't agree that there is any get out of jail free card. Not for Christians, not for anyone. We have to do the work and actually repent.


I thank you for your kind words, but I know me. I've lived with this addiction for decades. I give glory to God for the strength he has given me.
I admire you for this, and I give you all my words of encouragement. I've worked as an Alcohol and Drug Counselor, so I've seen people struggle with addictions (and a person can be addicted to all sorts of stuff, gambling, porn, etc.). Like I said, I do put these kinds of compulsions in a slightly different category -- its not that we aren't responsible for what we do, we are, but in some cases there are also mitigating factors. A person's ability to choose freely is impaired in the case of addictions. The Bible doesn't really have a concept of addiction, so this is simply my applying my belief that God is just to a situation where scripture says nothing.
 
This is obviously just simply a matter that we are different religions. You are a Christian, which means the New Testament is your authority for your beliefs. As a Jew, I am grounded in Torah, with the additional texts of the Prophets and the Writings, as well as the Oral Torah (Talmud) and the writings of the sages. There are just going to be some things we disagree on. You have quoted 1 John 1:9, which is fine if you are simply communicating your own beliefs. But such a text will have no impact on me, as I don't accept the New Testament. I simply reject the idea of imputed righteousness and substitutionary atonement.
Yeah, please note that whenever I quote from the New Testament, it's so you know where I'm getting my stuff from and hopefully it clarifies things. I try not to make stuff up.
Just so you know, I hope my questions below are enjoyable ones. I'm enjoying this conversation :D

I do believe that the difference between the righteous and the wicked is that the righteous repent when we stumble and the wicked do not. Proverbs 24:16 For a righteous man falleth seven times, and riseth up again, But the wicked stumble under adversity.

Further, I believe that each man is responsible for his own sin -- no one can take responsibility for my sins but me, not you, not Jewjitzu, not Jesus... Deuteronomy 24:16 Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin.
Are you saying there are no stories or illustrations of a person or animal taking the responsibility for someone else's sin in the Tanakh?

So no, I can't agree that there is any get out of jail free card. Not for Christians, not for anyone. We have to do the work and actually repent.
Okay, so I was doing some thinking on this, and I went down a rabbit hole. Let me give some context before I give my question. First, with "We have to do the work and actually repent" my thought went to whether repentance alone atones for sin. I think we would say that it's not enough... but that got my mind thinking about atonement.
I think the word for atonement in Hebrew is kaphar (kapar?), but I'm thinking that word could be used in different ways depending on the context, and I see some difficulties in that... so what are your thoughts on how the Tanakh deals with atonement outside of there being a temple?


I admire you for this, and I give you all my words of encouragement. I've worked as an Alcohol and Drug Counselor, so I've seen people struggle with addictions (and a person can be addicted to all sorts of stuff, gambling, porn, etc.). Like I said, I do put these kinds of compulsions in a slightly different category -- its not that we aren't responsible for what we do, we are, but in some cases there are also mitigating factors. A person's ability to choose freely is impaired in the case of addictions. The Bible doesn't really have a concept of addiction, so this is simply my applying my belief that God is just to a situation where scripture says nothing.
Yeah, and pornography is debated as to whether it's an addiction or not. A great book on it called "Wired for Intimacy" by Dr. William Struthers talked about it and to simplify the arguments and counterarguments, if a person acts like they're addicted they're addicted. I had a friend who went to get professional help for this. They asked him questions, and afterwords accused him of secretly being on cocaine but it was just the results of decades of porn use.
But what you said that's fascinating for me to think about is that the Bible doesn't have a concept of addiction. In the NT there is as the Greek word translated as addicted in the NIV has to do with enslavement (being enslaved to too much wine Titus 2:3 KJV), so that's something I wonder about... if there are concepts or illustrations of people who were enslaved to a particular sin. Maybe Samson and women. Israel and foreign gods in Jeremiah 2:24. Certainly the prostitute enslaves, ensnares, and destroys in Proverbs 2, 5, etc ... .... just thinking... outloud(?)
What are your thoughts :D ?
 
Are you saying there are no stories or illustrations of a person or animal taking the responsibility for someone else's sin in the Tanakh?
The only instance I can think of where the Tanakh mentions vicarious suffering is Isaiah 53, where he rights that the obedient remnant of Israel will suffer on behalf of Israel at large.
Okay, so I was doing some thinking on this, and I went down a rabbit hole. Let me give some context before I give my question. First, with "We have to do the work and actually repent" my thought went to whether repentance alone atones for sin. I think we would say that it's not enough... but that got my mind thinking about atonement.
I think the word for atonement in Hebrew is kaphar (kapar?), but I'm thinking that word could be used in different ways depending on the context, and I see some difficulties in that... so what are your thoughts on how the Tanakh deals with atonement outside of there being a temple?
If you read Leviticus 4 about sin offering, you will see that you can only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins. There is NO ATONEMENT for intentional sins. If one sins intentionally, one must go the harder road and actually Repent. That begins with going to the person you harmed and making it right again, and includes turning away from that sin and turning back to God's laws. So there is no such thing as "repentance atoning for sin." They are two completely different things.
Yeah, and pornography is debated as to whether it's an addiction or not. A great book on it called "Wired for Intimacy" by Dr. William Struthers talked about it and to simplify the arguments and counterarguments, if a person acts like they're addicted they're addicted. I had a friend who went to get professional help for this. They asked him questions, and afterwords accused him of secretly being on cocaine but it was just the results of decades of porn use.
But what you said that's fascinating for me to think about is that the Bible doesn't have a concept of addiction. In the NT there is as the Greek word translated as addicted in the NIV has to do with enslavement (being enslaved to too much wine Titus 2:3 KJV), so that's something I wonder about... if there are concepts or illustrations of people who were enslaved to a particular sin. Maybe Samson and women. Israel and foreign gods in Jeremiah 2:24. Certainly the prostitute enslaves, ensnares, and destroys in Proverbs 2, 5, etc ... .... just thinking... outloud(?)
What are your thoughts :D ?
Like I said, I do not think the Bible has a concept of addiction. All sins ensnare -- it doesn't imply addiction.
 
The only instance I can think of where the Tanakh mentions vicarious suffering is Isaiah 53, where he rights that the obedient remnant of Israel will suffer on behalf of Israel at large.
I honestly did not think of that chapter... which I think might be ironic... anyway.
What about 2 Samuel 21:1-14, with the Gibeonites that Saul slaughtered and David handed over 7 of Saul's descendants to them? Do you think that also counts as vicarious sufferings for someone else's sin?

If you read Leviticus 4 about sin offering, you will see that you can only atone for UNINTENTIONAL sins. There is NO ATONEMENT for intentional sins. If one sins intentionally, one must go the harder road and actually Repent. That begins with going to the person you harmed and making it right again, and includes turning away from that sin and turning back to God's laws. So there is no such thing as "repentance atoning for sin." They are two completely different things.
Thanks for clearing up a misunderstanding. Much appreciated.

I thought, though, that there was sacrifices that atoned for intentional sins also:
Lev 5, 12:7-8, 14-15 talks about atonement for being unclean
Lev 6:7 has atonement for deceiving his neighbor
Lev 16 has atonement for all sins
Lev 19:20-22, premarital sex which is pretty intentional
Another is Numbers 35:33, where a murderer's blood atones for the murder "'Do not pollute the land where you are. Bloodshed pollutes the land, and atonement cannot be made for the land on which blood has been shed, except by the blood of the one who shed it."
I also found this while trying to understand the Jewish understanding of atonement, "The general rabbinic approach was to deritualize atonement and center it more on the personal religious life of the individual in his relationship to God: "Now that we have no prophet or priest or sacrifice, who shall atone for us? In our hands is left only – prayer" (Tanḥ. Va-Yishlaḥ. 10)" https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/atonement). Is prayer here only for unintentional sins?
(On a side note, now I understand how important atonement is for Yom Kippur... which I'm sure a child who spoke Hebrew would laugh at me for not knowing :D )

Like I said, I do not think the Bible has a concept of addiction. All sins ensnare -- it doesn't imply addiction.
Fair enough. I think there ought to be, since the Bible talks about people, and... we all have an addiction to something at one point. And with regards to being holy I think it should at least say something.
But, I'll keep what you said in mind in the future when I read the Bible.
Thanks :)
 
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