Is God trying to save those He forknew wouldn't believe?

[eternomade]

Is Jesus Christ God?

Yes

 

[armylngst]

calvin did.

oops ?

I can post quotes from His books that state the opposite. I can't make you read the book, but I can post quotes from it.

Oops.

 

[Tercon]

As I understand it, no one would reconcile to God unless they believed He existed and that they were separated from Him.
So no reconciliation without belief. And then no salvation until reconciliation.

So, God does something for us that reconciles us to Himself and it is that something that makes us believe, is that what you're saying?

 

[Alkaline_9.5]

So, God does something for us that reconciles us to Himself and it is that something that makes us believe, is that what you're saying?

We are still separated from God - here on Earth, every day.

 

[Tercon]

We are still separated from God - here on Earth, every day.

Really, as a believer? Because as a believer I am not "separated from God". And if you believe that you are "separated from God", then you should seek someone who can explain to you how and why as believers we have access to God at all times.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

So, God does something for us that reconciles us to Himself and it is that something that makes us believe, is that what you're saying?

that was close, but I am always amazed here when people improvise on what was said and yet claim it was what I said.
I never said that what Jesus did made us believe.
Also I never said that it reconciles us to Him. How did you get those two ideas out of my post? Always baffles me when people see things in my posts I never said or meant.
1. The blood reconciles God to us
2. We then have the choice to be reconciled to Him

 

[shnarkle]

That true. My point was that once Christ died, the forbearance of God had run out(Rom 3:25). That day was the day Christ came to forgive sin and propitiate wrath, or Redemption.

The Baptist usefully observes that Christ takes away sin. That's a bit more than just forgiving sin.

I believe they are justified sinners.

I'm not sure I see any effective difference between a justified sinner and one who justifies sin.

Those who reject imputation of righteousness in favor of impartation of righteousness believe they are imparted with a perfect nature. I do not believe this.

Christ was not just imputed with sin. He paid the price. The penalty was not imputed.

Paul said he was the chief of sinners.

Paul had quite an ego. However, it is also important to note that Paul is making an argument, and he doesn't stop there. The gospel doesn't end with sinners boasting of their sin.

Do you believe in imputation? For example:

2 Corinthians 5
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

To be made sin by impartation means the spotless lamb was now tainted. Jesus was imputed with sin, but not imparted with sin. He was not actually a sinner, but a sin offering.

The sin offering was not imputed. He was actually sacrificed. The penalty was not imputed, but actually carried out. Likewise, it stands to reason that the new creation actually keeps God's commandments. God's commandments are not imputed to the new creation. They are imparted to the new creation.

Christ wasn't imputed with righteousness, or imputed with a perfect sinless life. He actually led a sinless life, no?

Coming up with some doctrine to rationalize that we can sin with impunity isn't the gospel as far as I can tell. It seems to be a problem with Luke when he points out that those who justify themselves are heaping one sin upon another. e.g. Luke15:16

 

[Leatherneck0311]

We are still separated from God - here on Earth, every day.

We have access to God:

Heb 10:19 - Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Heb 10:20 - By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;

Heb 10:21 - And having an high priest over the house of God;

Heb 10:22 - Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evilconscience, and our bodieswashed with pure water.

Heb 10:23 - Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering;

 

[Rockson]

It's better you tell him than me; I'm tired of it...

An example I use is Ultraman from the Comic books; an alternate doppleganger of Superman. For him, Kryptonite strengthens him. Non Calvinists throw Verses at us like they are Kryptonite that will defeat us; but all along we love the Verses and say "Feed me more!"...

This is the part they don't get...

Well keep in mind Rev there were some who claimed they were one thing, but God said they were the exact opposite. Rev 3: 17

 

[Alkaline_9.5]

Well keep in mind Rev there were some who claimed they were one thing, but God said they were the exact opposite. Rev 3: 17

We can know each day what we are. That is why i can say with surety, as an honest statement based on fact: i am separated from God.

 

[Alkaline_9.5]

Really, as a believer? Because as a believer I am not "separated from God". And if you believe that you are "separated from God", then you should seek someone who can explain to you how and why as believers we have access to God at all times.

To be not separated from God, we would be perfect and holy, walking in all His ways, in perfect freedom from sin and death.

Romans 8:21-23

 

[eternomade]

The Baptist usefully observes that Christ takes away sin. That's a bit more than just forgiving sin

Yes. I should have used a different word.

I'm not sure I see any effective difference between a justified sinner and one who justifies sin.

Ok

Christ was not just imputed with sin. He paid the price. The penalty was not imputed.

Why did the High Priest confess the sins of the people on the scapegoat? Can you tell me where the sin went? Was it imparted to Christ?

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:21 KJV

Paul had quite an ego. However, it is also important to note that Paul is making an argument, and he doesn't stop there. The gospel doesn't end with sinners boasting of their sin.

Paul didn't write that, God did. I didn't say Paul was boasting, but that he was the chief of sinners.

The sin offering was not imputed. He was actually sacrificed. The penalty was not imputed, but actually carried out. Likewise, it stands to reason that the new creation actually keeps God's commandments. God's commandments are not imputed to the new creation. They are imparted to the new creation.

If it was not imputed, was it imparted? Christ was not made a sinner but a sin offering.

Christ wasn't imputed with righteousness, or imputed with a perfect sinless life. He actually led a sinless life, no?

I didn't say He was imputed with righteousness. I said:

1. All of mankind was imputed with Adam's disobedience.
2. Christ was imputed with the sin of the elect
3. The elect were imputed with the righteousness of God.

Yes Christ was perfect, spotless, and was never imparted with sin but imputed with sin.

Coming up with some doctrine to rationalize that we can sin with impunity isn't the gospel as far as I can tell. It seems to be a problem with Luke when he points out that those who justify themselves are heaping one sin upon another. e.g. Luke15:16

I didn't come up with it and never said it was the gospel. The Gospel is the person and work of Christ alone. Never claimed to be justifying sin either.

See Psalm 32, Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5 for imputation. It's how Christ was made a sinner.

 

[shnarkle]

Why did the High Priest confess the sins of the people on the scapegoat?

Because that's where they truly and ultimately belong. Christ is the high priest who places the sin of the world upon Satan's head. Those sins are not imputed. They are actually placed on the origin of sin itself right where they belong.

Can you tell me where the sin went? Was it imparted to Christ?

Nope. It is placed on Azazzel's head which is right where it belongs.

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:
Leviticus 16:21 KJV


Paul didn't write that, God did.

Technically, it was probably written by one of Paul's scribes as Paul dictated it to him. While he may have been inspired to write it, it doesn't negate the fact that it was written by Paul.

I didn't say Paul was boasting, but that he was the chief of sinners.

I never claimed you said he was boasting. I made the claim and claiming one is the chief of sinners is boasting.

If it was not imputed, was it imparted?

You can't have a substitution without it being imparted. They're essentially synonymous terms. If Christ didn't take the penalty for sin, then we're all damned. Was he substituted for us or not? If he was, then the penalty for sin was imparted to him rather than us, and while his righteousness is imputed to us, there is nothing anywhere in scripture that negates the fact that conforming to Christ necessarily renders sin DEAD. One does not live by the sacrificial system, but by the commandments. The commandments are not negated by the sacrificial system or Christ's sacrifice. One still lives by them. If Christ's sacrifice doesn't actually remove sin, we're all dead in our sins and eternally damned.

Christ was not made a sinner but a sin offering.

No one is denying that.

I didn't say He was imputed with righteousness.

I haven't forgotten your claims. I'm pointing out that Christ was actually righteous which spotlights the fact that someone here isn't comparing apples to apples. You're presenting a gospel that saves people in their sins rather than from their sins. You also seem to be confusing Paul's claims of ineptitude with dealing with sin with Christ's ability to actually remove sin. Paul contrasts them. He doesn't conflate them.

I said:

1. All of mankind was imputed with Adam's disobedience.
2. Christ was imputed with the sin of the elect
3. The elect were imputed with the righteousness of God.

Repeating yourself doesn't address what I'm posting or advance the discussion in the slightest. I haven't forgotten what you've posted. I'm advancing the discussion by pointing out the distinction between what is imputed and what is actually happening. You're conflating them.

Yes Christ was perfect, spotless, and was never imparted with sin but imputed with sin.

And if Christ takes on our sins that we may live life eternal IN sin, then there's a serious problem. To claim that the new creation sins is NOT biblical. It is a serious misreading of Paul's letter/argument. Again, read what he says AFTER his comments on his sinful life. He is presenting the chronology of events in salvation, and it doesn't end with him sinning for the rest of earthly life. John's letters also point out the same chronology of events as well as juxtaposing them rather than conflating them.

I didn't come up with it

You just presented it. You didn't refute it.

and never said it was the gospel.

You seem incapable of denying it as the gospel.

The Gospel is the person and work of Christ alone. Never claimed to be justifying sin either.

Here's what you posted: "I believe they are justified sinners." Nowhere do you ever claim that these who are justified stop sinning. You're presenting the gospel that Christ saves the sinner IN their sins rather than saving them FROM their sins.

See Psalm 32, Romans 5 and 2 Corinthians 5 for imputation. It's how Christ was made a sinner.

Christ was NEVER made a sinner. You're contradicting yourself.

 

[Tercon]

that was close, but I am always amazed here when people improvise on what was said and yet claim it was what I said.

Strawman. I did not "improvise on what was said and" "claim it was" what you said.

What I did was lay out a case of logical entailment for you and you came to that on your own, then you accused me of "improvise on what was said". Are you conflating improvisation with entailment or implication?

When in reality you reasoned to it on your own, I just laid out a logical case that you reasoned to on your own. That's how the Spirit of truth works, He corners us in our minds and makes us deal with the truth one on one. What you are doing is projecting onto me what the Holy Spirit is trying to do in you.

I am amazed when a logical argument is presented to someone and they reason to a logical conclusion and then they pretend it is me trying to deceive them in some way. FYI the power of the logical truth, IOW the Logos comes from the Spirit of truth and not me. If you reasoned to the conclusion; which you did, then that is the Holy Spirit trying to work in you and you are rejecting it, you are quenching the Spirit of truth.

I never said that what Jesus did made us believe.

And where did I say that you said "Jesus did made us believe"?

Also I never said that it reconciles us to Him.

What is "it" that you are referring to when you say that "it reconciles us to Him"?

How did you get those two ideas out of my post?

What "two ideas" are you referring to?

Always baffles me when people see things in my posts I never said or meant.

Strawman. what "things" are you referring to in your "posts" that you "never said or meant"?

1. The blood reconciles God to us

Please explain how blood "reconciles God to us", also we are reconciled to God by something God does and not something we done or do, would you agree? You seem to be missing something that God does that makes believers saved. What about the part that reconciles the believer to God, what did He do to facilitate that?
And was God's bleeding on the cross the part that makes us believe? Because according to God's own words that he struggled more in the garden than he did on the cross. So, what did Jesus Christ as a fully human being struggle with in the garden of Gethsemane. Christ like all humans struggled with what all humans struggle with before they are saved by God, we struggle to believe. And since it is only belief that can reconcile us to God, then that saving belief has to have originated in and with God and not us. And that's what God was doing in the garden of Gethsemane, He broke through the abyss to the Spirit realm where God and His Kingdom resides in and with His believing and in so doing took everyone who believes him with him into God's realm.

These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said -- `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during; and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ; I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].
`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee; I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me, are from Thee, because the sayings that Thou hast given to me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, (so, how did they receive and know?) that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send me.
`I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given to me, because Thine they are, and all mine are Thine, and Thine [are] mine, and I have been glorified in them; and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we; when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
`And now unto Thee I come, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves; I have given to them Thy word, and the world did hate them, because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world; I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil.
`Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth.
`And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
`And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one; I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
`Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.
Righteous Father, also the world did not know Thee, and I knew Thee, and these have known that Thou didst send me, and I made known to them Thy name, and will make known, that the love with which Thou lovedst me in them may be, and I in them.' (John 17)

2. We then have the choice to be reconciled to Him

So, it was your "choice" then that reconciled you to Him?

As I understand it, no one would reconcile to God unless they believed He existed and that they were separated from Him.
So no reconciliation without belief. And then no salvation until reconciliation.

Could we be reconciled to God without something making us believe? And if there is "no reconciliation without belief", then where does that belief originate that reconciles us to God?

There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John, this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him; that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;' and out of his fulness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace; for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come; God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare. (John 1:6-18)

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Strawman. I did not "improvise on what was said and" "claim it was" what you said.

What I did was lay out a case of logical entailment for you and you came to that on your own, then you accused me of "improvise on what was said". Are you conflating improvisation with entailment or implication?

When in reality you reasoned to it on your own, I just laid out a logical case that you reasoned to on your own. That's how the Spirit of truth works, He corners us in our minds and makes us deal with the truth one on one. What you are doing is projecting onto me what the Holy Spirit is trying to do in you.

I am amazed when a logical argument is presented to someone and they reason to a logical conclusion and then they pretend it is me trying to deceive them in some way. FYI the power of the logical truth, IOW the Logos comes from the Spirit of truth and not me. If you reasoned to the conclusion; which you did, then that is the Holy Spirit trying to work in you and you are rejecting it, you are quenching the Spirit of truth.



And where did I say that you said "Jesus did made us believe"?



What is "it" that you are referring to when you say that "it reconciles us to Him"?



What "two ideas" are you referring to?



Strawman. what "things" are you referring to in your "posts" that you "never said or meant"?



Please explain how blood "reconciles God to us", also we are reconciled to God by something God does and not something we done or do, would you agree? You seem to be missing something that God does that makes believers saved. What about the part that reconciles the believer to God, what did He do to facilitate that?
And was God's bleeding on the cross the part that makes us believe? Because according to God's own words that he struggled more in the garden than he did on the cross. So, what did Jesus Christ as a fully human being struggle with in the garden of Gethsemane. Christ like all humans struggled with what all humans struggle with before they are saved by God, we struggle to believe. And since it is only belief that can reconcile us to God, then that saving belief has to have originated in and with God and not us. And that's what God was doing in the garden of Gethsemane, He broke through the abyss to the Spirit realm where God and His Kingdom resides in and with His believing and in so doing took everyone who believes him with him into God's realm.

These things spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to the heaven, and said -- `Father, the hour hath come, glorify Thy Son, that Thy Son also may glorify Thee, according as Thou didst give to him authority over all flesh, that -- all that Thou hast given to him -- he may give to them life age-during; and this is the life age-during, that they may know Thee, the only true God, and him whom Thou didst send -- Jesus Christ; I did glorify Thee on the earth, the work I did finish that Thou hast given me, that I may do [it].
`And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee; I did manifest Thy name to the men whom Thou hast given to me out of the world; Thine they were, and to me Thou hast given them, and Thy word they have kept; now they have known that all things, as many as Thou hast given to me, are from Thee, because the sayings that Thou hast given to me, I have given to them, and they themselves received, and have known truly, (so, how did they receive and know?) that from Thee I came forth, and they did believe that Thou didst send me.
`I ask in regard to them; not in regard to the world do I ask, but in regard to those whom Thou hast given to me, because Thine they are, and all mine are Thine, and Thine [are] mine, and I have been glorified in them; and no more am I in the world, and these are in the world, and I come unto Thee. Holy Father, keep them in Thy name, whom Thou hast given to me, that they may be one as we; when I was with them in the world, I was keeping them in Thy name; those whom Thou hast given to me I did guard, and none of them was destroyed, except the son of the destruction, that the Writing may be fulfilled.
`And now unto Thee I come, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves; I have given to them Thy word, and the world did hate them, because they are not of the world, as I am not of the world; I do not ask that Thou mayest take them out of the world, but that Thou mayest keep them out of the evil.
`Of the world they are not, as I of the world am not; sanctify them in Thy truth, Thy word is truth; as Thou didst send me to the world, I also did send them to the world; and for them do I sanctify myself, that they also themselves may be sanctified in truth.
`And not in regard to these alone do I ask, but also in regard to those who shall be believing, through their word, in me; that they all may be one, as Thou Father [art] in me, and I in Thee; that they also in us may be one, that the world may believe that Thou didst send me.
`And I, the glory that thou hast given to me, have given to them, that they may be one as we are one; I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.
`Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world.
Righteous Father, also the world did not know Thee, and I knew Thee, and these have known that Thou didst send me, and I made known to them Thy name, and will make known, that the love with which Thou lovedst me in them may be, and I in them.' (John 17)



So, it was your "choice" then that reconciled you to Him?



Could we be reconciled to God without something making us believe? And if there is "no reconciliation without belief", then where does that belief originate that reconciles us to God?

There came a man -- having been sent from God -- whose name [is] John, this one came for testimony, that he might testify about the Light, that all might believe through him; that one was not the Light, but -- that he might testify about the Light.
He was the true Light, which doth enlighten every man, coming to the world; in the world he was, and the world through him was made, and the world did not know him: to his own things he came, and his own people did not receive him; but as many as did receive him to them he gave authority to become sons of God -- to those believing in his name, who -- not of blood nor of a will of flesh, nor of a will of man but -- of God were begotten.
And the Word became flesh, and did tabernacle among us, and we beheld his glory, glory as of an only begotten of a father, full of grace and truth.
John doth testify concerning him, and hath cried, saying, `This was he of whom I said, He who after me is coming, hath come before me, for he was before me;' and out of his fulness did we all receive, and grace over-against grace; for the law through Moses was given, the grace and the truth through Jesus Christ did come; God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father -- he did declare. (John 1:6-18)

One thing. You broke parts of my post into incomprehensible pieces then told me you did not know what i was saying,
Also, be careful when you tell me what the logical result is of what I say. I will be going where I see the Word leading. That is the logic I want to follow. When you follow your own logic and attribute it to me, you likely will be wrong about where I would go.
You ask how blood reconciles us to God. The blood atonement has life and that life soothes God's anger. Atonement = an act to soothe anger,
I have never read in the Word that Jesus' bleeding makes us believe. What I see is that God gives us a measure of faith so we have a foundation to stand on so that we can believe in (choose to entrust ourselves to) Him.
As far as me being reconciled to God, Yes. The Bible commands us, "Be reconciled." Jesus did His part, we are commanded to do ours.
Belief does not reconcile us, it informs us. But if we reject faith, we will not be informed and so not act on that information and choose to be reconciled.

 

[Tercon]

One thing. You broke parts of my post into incomprehensible pieces then told me you did not know what i was saying,

Strawman. No, I showed you how illogical your position is with logic and you rejected the truth that came from it.

Also, be careful when you tell me what the logical result is of what I say.

If you think I am wrong, then just put up a argument against what I said to refute it, rather than lamenting.

I will be going where I see the Word leading. That is the logic I want to follow. When you follow your own logic and attribute it to me, you likely will be wrong about where I would go.

If you were going where the logical truth lead, then you would see the truth that logic leads to, but instead you have rejected it. And without may I add of even refuting what was said to you to begin with, and that which lead also you to that logical conclusion as well. That's quite incredible to say the least.

You ask how blood reconciles us to God. The blood atonement has life and that life soothes God's anger.

Blood represents the sacrifice that is required in order to get God's work done, because there is nothing more controversial to unbelievers than the logic truth AKA the Logos.

Atonement = an act to soothe anger,

Who atones for man's sin, God or man?

I have never read in the Word that Jesus' bleeding makes us believe.

Strawman and that's exactly why I have never suggested that "bleeding makes us believe". Rather it is God's believing in and with man that makes man believe and thrive in and with God.

What I see is that God gives us a measure of faith so we have a foundation to stand on so that we can believe in (choose to entrust ourselves to) Him.

So, if it is God "that gives us a measure of faith", then faith too must originate in and with God as well. And if faith requires belief or faith is belief in God, then all belief in the truth and reality of God must originate in and with God.

As far as me being reconciled to God, Yes. The Bible commands us, "Be reconciled." Jesus did His part, we are commanded to do ours.

You are talking in circles.

Actually if reconciliation can't be accomplished without belief and the Bible teaches that we are reconciled to God by believing, as Jesus believed and so are we in order to be saved. And if belief is a gift of God, then by logical necessity belief in the truth and reality of God must have originated in and with God.

Belief does not reconcile us, it informs us.

It is dishonest and illogical to suggest that what God uses to inform believers of Himself isn't what reconciles believers to Himself as well. A matter of fact everything God does with believers He does in and by believing, and it is only our believing that allows us to know and participate in God's Kingdom.

But if we reject faith, we will not be informed and so not act on that information and choose to be reconciled.

If faith is belief in God, then to "reject" God's belief is to embrace unbelief in God.

And if one rejects the means by which God used to save us and make Him known to us, then that same one has rejected the very means by which God Himself makes Himself known to us as well, as it isn't our belief that saved us, but the belief that saved us must have originated in and with God and not us. Rather, as believers we believe in or to participate in God's Kingdom, but saving belief came from God and not us; because it is only a act of God (His belief) that can make a unbeliever a believer.

Everyone who rejects God's belief is unable to know how and why God is God.

 

[Alexander the adequate]

Strawman. No, I showed you how illogical your position is with logic and you rejected the truth that came from it.



If you think I am wrong, then just put up a argument against what I said to refute it, rather than lamenting.



If you were going where the logical truth lead, then you would see the truth that logic leads to, but instead you have rejected it. And without may I add of even refuting what was said to you to begin with, and that which lead also you to that logical conclusion as well. That's quite incredible to say the least.



Blood represents the sacrifice that is required in order to get God's work done, because there is nothing more controversial to unbelievers than the logic truth AKA the Logos.



Who atones for man's sin, God or man?



Strawman and that's exactly why I have never suggested that "bleeding makes us believe". Rather it is God's believing in and with man that makes man believe and thrive in and with God.



So, if it is God "that gives us a measure of faith", then faith too must originate in and with God as well. And if faith requires belief or faith is belief in God, then all belief in the truth and reality of God must originate in and with God.



You are talking in circles.

Actually if reconciliation can't be accomplished without belief and the Bible teaches that we are reconciled to God by believing, as Jesus believed and so are we in order to be saved. And if belief is a gift of God, then by logical necessity belief in the truth and reality of God must have originated in and with God.



It is dishonest and illogical to suggest that what God uses to inform believers of Himself isn't what reconciles believers to Himself as well. A matter of fact everything God does with believers He does in and by believing, and it is only our believing that allows us to know and participate in God's Kingdom.



If faith is belief in God, then to "reject" God's belief is to embrace unbelief in God.

And if one rejects the means by which God used to save us and make Him known to us, then that same one has rejected the very means by which God Himself makes Himself known to us as well, as it isn't our belief that saved us, but the belief that saved us must have originated in and with God and not us. Rather, as believers we believe in or to participate in God's Kingdom, but saving belief came from God and not us; because it is only a act of God (His belief) that can make a unbeliever a believer.

Everyone who rejects God's belief is unable to know how and why God is God.

you did not seem to understand a single thing I said as your comments have almost nothing to do with the substance of anything I said.

 

[Tercon]

you did not seem to understand a single thing I said as your comments have almost nothing to do with the substance of anything I said.

No, I just told you why I didn't believe what you said. I told you the truth and you rejected it.

This, then, I say, and I testify in the Lord; ye are no more to walk, as also the other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart, who, having ceased to feel, themselves did give up to the lasciviousness, for the working of all uncleanness in greediness; and ye did not so learn the Christ, if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus; ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth. (Ephesians 4:17-24)

 

[Alexander the adequate]

No, I just told you why I didn't believe what you said. I told you the truth and you rejected it.

This, then, I say, and I testify in the Lord; ye are no more to walk, as also the other nations walk, in the vanity of their mind, being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart, who, having ceased to feel, themselves did give up to the lasciviousness, for the working of all uncleanness in greediness; and ye did not so learn the Christ, if so be ye did hear him, and in him were taught, as truth is in Jesus; ye are to put off concerning the former behaviour the old man, that is corrupt according to the desires of the deceit, and to be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and to put on the new man, which, according to God, was created in righteousness and kindness of the truth. (Ephesians 4:17-24)

ok.

 

[Tercon]

ok.

That's not going to help you know God. The only thing that makes you know God is believing Him.