ReverendRV
Well-known member
I tryNo I have done innocent babies for a while. Good shout though, you nearly read my mind.
I've been here too long...
I tryNo I have done innocent babies for a while. Good shout though, you nearly read my mind.
We believe Ephesians 2:3 nails it, we were under wrath like the rest of mankind. Then the famous phrase in 2:4 "BUT GOD..." and He shows us what He did for us in the following verses.Even the elect at some point must be included in that, or doesn't God hate the elect at any point? If so what is the basis then he hates people, is it just their sin, their unbelief, or another reason?
I don't think so, not that He held hatred in that way. He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He set His love on us for no other reason than His own purpose, counsel, will, and grace, and He does not tell us why. Note Romans 5:8, written to believers.That would include the elect before they received a new heart? Would they be inluded in this and if not why not?
That is a good answer. Being under the Wrath of God is like being under his Ire. To be under his Judgment would be unemotional...We believe Ephesians 2:3 nails it, we were under wrath like the rest of mankind. Then the famous phrase in 2:4 "BUT GOD..." and He shows us what He did for us in the following verses.
As far as why He passes over some, hardens some, doesn't show mercy? I am in line with Martyn Lloyd-Jones on that one, God doesn't tell us why, and I don't want to know why.
I don't think so, not that He held hatred in that way. He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He set His love on us for no other reason than His own purpose, counsel, will, and grace, and He does not tell us why. Note Romans 5:8, written to believers.
Thanks, Rev! It is all mysterious to me; chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, under wrath here until we realize "But God..."That is a good answer. Being under the Wrath of God is like being under his Ire. To be under his Judgment is emotionless...
When you say that, if you can say that has a Calvinist, we move a step closer. So yes I can agree with that.Hate the Sin, not the Sinner; right?
We can try to explain God's hate for All Evil doers away, but we shouldn't do it. God doesn't Unconditionally Hate all Evil doers, because some Evil doers are Unconditionally Elect. The hatred he has for them is conditional, like Justification is conditional. Election is Unconditional, Justification is not. There is a hateful emotion in Wrath, and we were under his Wrath...When you say that, if you can say that has a Calvinist, we move a step closer. So yes I can agree with that.
I have said plenty of times in my life, I hate this person or that, for some reason or another, but I don't actually hate them. I could say i hate politicians, they lie, they deceive us, they are corrupt, they take us for fools. I hate what they do, but actually hating someone, that is quite a different level. Interpretation is very important, it's easy to rush to judgement and judge, how many times do we all do that and come unstuck?
I am a long way off being perfect and has someone who grew up with a foreign name in school, I got beaten and verbally abused almost everyday for that name, I came close to one kid ready to knife me to death, not easy being held down waiting to die when you are just 14. Those kids were just ignorant, so I associate real hatred with ignorance, they had no real reason to hate me, other than I didn't appear in their eyes to be equal, because of a name.
When I became a Christian, naturally I have forgiven them, when you are young you do ignorant things, I accept that, I have nothing to be ashamed of, but even so I was not perfect, but God is, so when I see he says I hate sinners, I struggle with the verse that it means he actually hates that person.
So yeah for me he hates the sin, not the sinner. Of course there is hell and now this will lead to another question because if he doesn't hate sinners, how can he let them go to hell and it's late here in the UK and another year has just passed me by.
God didn't need to save us, but it was his plan all along, it's something we can agree on.We believe Ephesians 2:3 nails it, we were under wrath like the rest of mankind. Then the famous phrase in 2:4 "BUT GOD..." and He shows us what He did for us in the following verses.
Our interpretations of scripture part company here I fancy, obviously because we don't agree on predestination, but I can understand why you say God doesn't explain that and I am not going to ask why, because I have been down that road and it's not going to be productive.As far as why He passes over some, hardens some, doesn't show mercy? I am in line with Martyn Lloyd-Jones on that one, God doesn't tell us why, and I don't want to know why.
I know Calvinists claim there are two kinds of love and heard before two kinds of hate. I struggle to accept that without it being explained in great detail. I can understand hatred because you want revenge for the murder of your son or hatred for something someone does, that you hate and say i hate them, but not actually the person. I can't see how there can be any others, unless you do?I don't think so, not that He held hatred in that way.
When you say that, if you can say that has a Calvinist, we move a step closer. So yes I can agree with that.
I have said plenty of times in my life, I hate this person or that, for some reason or another, but I don't actually hate them. I could say i hate politicians, they lie, they deceive us, they are corrupt, they take us for fools. I hate what they do, but actually hating someone, that is quite a different level. Interpretation is very important, it's easy to rush to judgement and judge, how many times do we all do that and come unstuck?
I am a long way off being perfect and has someone who grew up with a foreign name in school, I got beaten and verbally abused almost everyday for that name, I came close to one kid ready to knife me to death, not easy being held down waiting to die when you are just 14. Those kids were just ignorant, so I associate real hatred with ignorance, they had no real reason to hate me, other than I didn't appear in their eyes to be equal, because of a name.
When I became a Christian, naturally I have forgiven them, when you are young you do ignorant things, I accept that, I have nothing to be ashamed of, but even so I was not perfect, but God is, so when I see he says I hate sinners, I struggle with the verse that it means he actually hates that person.
So yeah for me he hates the sin, not the sinner. Of course there is hell and now this will lead to another question because if he doesn't hate sinners, how can he let them go to hell and it's late here in the UK and another year has just passed me by.
In a situation like that, the proper thing to do is discuss the Verses about hate that can apply to the Saints...I know Calvinists claim there are two kinds of love and heard before two kinds of hate. I struggle to accept that without it being explained in great detail. I can understand hatred because you want revenge for the murder of your son or hatred for something someone does, that you hate and say i hate them, but not actually the person. I can't see how there can be any others, unless you do?
Time to clock off here in the UK. God bless P4T/REV, enjoyed the conversations today.
I do believe(agree) the elect were under the condemnation of the wrath of God until Christ propitiatied that wrath on the cross. But, Ephesians 2:3 does not say that we were under wrath like the rest of mankind but that we were "by nature children of wrath even like the others."We believe Ephesians 2:3 nails it, we were under wrath like the rest of mankind.
What is justification conditioned on, Christ?like Justification is conditional. Election is Unconditional, Justification is not.
As for me I have no problem saying God hates sinners BUT I'm going to share the way it's meant to be understood.Here's what scripture says, Lee, and in Hebrew the word is hate.
So, now you can tell your friends that it's not Calvinists who say God hates sinners but God who reveales that about Himself, can't you?
And we bring some other scriptures up along side this too and let's see where things go. 1 Jn 4:8 says God is LOVE. He does not just have LOVE but he is LOVE. He is not hate nowhere in the Bible does it say God is hate. And also, we're told to LOVE our enemies and by so doing we're like God in doing so. Matt 5:44.Ps 5:5 ... The boastful will not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do injustice.
Ps 11:5 ... The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And His soul hates one who loves violence.
God doesn't make any excuses for His hatred of sinners.As for me I have no problem saying God hates sinners BUT I'm going to share the way it's meant to be understood.
And we bring some other scriptures up along side this too and let's see where things go. 1 Jn 4:8 says God is LOVE. He does not just have LOVE but he is LOVE. He is not hate nowhere in the Bible does it say God is hate. And also, we're told to LOVE our enemies and by so doing we're like God in doing so. Matt 5:44.
So with the scriptures you put down above and the ones I just stated you have scriptures clashing. Something has to give. Both can't be thought of in just the way they appear. What would have to yield. The verses like Ps 5:5 would have to do so. How should they be considered then. Consider this. I've seen some parents have offspring which treated them unkindly and meanly. As far as their emotions you might catch them saying they find themselves hating their own adult offspring. They are very mad and upset with them. Does this mean they really hated them though? Not really. It's a hyperbolic statement. If they happened to die or were killed they'd be heart broken and hurt. Thus did they really hate their kid. No really. Not in the most real sense of the word. It's a hyperbolic way of speaking. They truly loved their offspring and God LOVES all men.....he is not nor does he find pleasure in the death of the wicked? Why? Because he truly loves them.
He does however want you to properly understand how verses are meant to be taken though.God doesn't make any excuses for hatred of sinners. Not one.
I do -- SERIOUSLY.He does however want you to properly understand how verses are meant to be taken though.
And so---->Do II do -- SERIOUSLY.
No, you don't.And so---->Do I
But....I do!No, you don't.
Or was I rather bringing clarity for your understanding? Even most Calvinists realize that they need to keep things in perspective of what the word "hate" means in various verses as in "hate" your father in mother. I'm saying to you, you need as well to consider what hate really means in other verses as well. Give it some thought anyway.You're making excuses for God's hatred of sinners revealed in Scripture that God doesn't make in Scripture for Himself.
My understanding is, you're making excuses for God's hatred of sinners revealed in Scripture that God doesn't make in Scripture for Himself.But....I do!
Or was I rather bringing clarity for your understanding?
Argumentum ad populum fallacyEven most Calvinists realize that they need to keep things in perspective of what the word "hate" means in various verses as in "hate" your father in mother.
No, I don't, but everyone here needs to understand that you're making excuses for God's hatred of sinners revealed in Scripture that God doesn't make in Scripture for Himself.I'm saying to you, you need as well to consider what hate really means in other verses as well. Give it some thought anyway.