What is the gospel?

[preacher4truth]

I do believe(agree) the elect were under the condemnation of the wrath of God until Christ propitiatied that wrath on the cross. But, Ephesians 2:3 does not say that we were under wrath like the rest of mankind but that we were "by nature children of wrath even like the others."

If that were the case then the rest of mankind were in the same condition which you prescribe to the elect.

 

[Christian]

When someone tells me as a Calvinist I should say to the Lost, 'God may not Love you'; I take a position that God is Providential and will direct my steps. I assume that those I Witness to, are Elect; even if I never see a Convert. One sows, another Waters; but God gives the growth. I could just be scratching the surface for someone else; and the Word of God doesn't return to him void...

Since God Hates all Evil doers, and All do Evil; I can say God Loves you since God has love for All; even if it's a common love and a common hate...

Can a Non-Calvinist tell someone God hates them, even though God is Love?

Philosophical argument not a biblical one, theological one . Huge difference between philosophy and theology .

 

[eternomade]

If that were the case then the rest of mankind were in the same condition which you prescribe to the elect.

Yes, all of mankind is by nature children of wrath.

 

[ReverendRV]

What is justification conditioned on, Christ?

Faith Alone...

As Calvinists, we should out-Faith Alone the Non-Calvinists; as if there were a New Protestant Reformation for us to take on. For now, they focus so much on Faith Only, they are the new Reformers...

Be jealous...

 

[preacher4truth]

Yes, all of mankind is by nature children of wrath.

Yep. Next verse says "But God..." and begins the detailing of how by mercy He saved us from under this indictment, which indicates we were in the same case "as the rest."

 

[LeeH]

Here's what scripture says, Lee, and in Hebrew the word is hate.

So, now you can tell your friends that it's not Calvinists who say God hates sinners but God who reveales that about Himself, can't you? I'm sure you will do that, Lee, because you believe Scripture, don't you, and so do all your friends, right?

Ps 5:5 ... The boastful will not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do injustice.

So by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner, it's strange that he choose you from the foundation of the world, he must have loved you then, then when you sinned he hated you and then loved you again.

No getting around that verse, he hates all who do injustice and has a sinner we all know we have done injustice, so God must hate us, unless God doesn't mean it that way and he just hates what we do, otherwise that hatred would apply to those who have not been saved yet, but will be, if they are in a state of hatred with God, why does he save people he hates?

So given you believe this, will you be going up to people who you witness to and tell them God hates them, repent. Isn't there a group like that in the US, Westboro Baptist Church?
They picket funerals with banners say God hates you, so would you join them and hold up a banner proclaiming God hates you, repent.

God hates your feelings, thank God for dead soldiers. Well God hates all who do violence, so that must come from scripture too. You are in agreement with that then Howie?

Are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church?

I believe God loves sinners J3:16, otherwise he wouldn't save us, now would he, so your understanding of what God is implying there, in those verses must be incorrect, that is what I believe.

 

[eternomade]

Yep. Next verse says "But God..." and begins the detailing of how by mercy He saved us from under this indictment, which indicates we were in the same case "as the rest."

Yes I agree. We disagree on the timing I guess.

 

[Theo1689]

God hates your feelings, thank God for dead soldiers. Well God hates all who do violence, so that must come from scripture too. You are in agreement with that then Howie?

Are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Westboro Baptist is unbalanced, they deny God's love.
You're unbalanced, you deny God's hate.

Calvinists are balanced, we recognize both.

believe God loves sinners J3:16, otherwise he wouldn't save us,

Um, so do Calvinists.
Why do you insist on being so insulting?
But He doesn't love us "because" of how we are.
He loves us INSPITE of our sins.

now would he, so your understanding of what God is implying there, in those verses must be incorrect, that is what I believe.

So since "God is love", you deny the Scriptures that say God hates sinners.
You are pitting Scripture against itself.

 

[Christian]

So by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner, it's strange that he choose you from the foundation of the world, he must have loved you then, then when you sinned he hated you and then loved you again.

No getting around that verse, he hates all who do injustice and has a sinner we all know we have done injustice, so God must hate us, unless God doesn't mean it that way and he just hates what we do, otherwise that hatred would apply to those who have not been saved yet, but will be, if they are in a state of hatred with God, why does he save people he hates?

So given you believe this, will you be going up to people who you witness to and tell them God hates them, repent. Isn't there a group like that in the US, Westboro Baptist Church?
They picket funerals with banners say God hates you, so would you join them and hold up a banner proclaiming God hates you, repent.

God hates your feelings, thank God for dead soldiers. Well God hates all who do violence, so that must come from scripture too. You are in agreement with that then Howie?

Are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church?

I believe God loves sinners J3:16, otherwise he wouldn't save us, now would he, so your understanding of what God is implying there, in those verses must be incorrect, that is what I believe.

Winner !

 

[ReverendRV]

So by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner, it's strange that he choose you from the foundation of the world, he must have loved you then, then when you sinned he hated you and then loved you again.

No getting around that verse, he hates all who do injustice and has a sinner we all know we have done injustice, so God must hate us, unless God doesn't mean it that way and he just hates what we do, otherwise that hatred would apply to those who have not been saved yet, but will be, if they are in a state of hatred with God, why does he save people he hates?

So given you believe this, will you be going up to people who you witness to and tell them God hates them, repent. Isn't there a group like that in the US, Westboro Baptist Church?
They picket funerals with banners say God hates you, so would you join them and hold up a banner proclaiming God hates you, repent.

God hates your feelings, thank God for dead soldiers. Well God hates all who do violence, so that must come from scripture too. You are in agreement with that then Howie?

Are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church?

I believe God loves sinners J3:16, otherwise he wouldn't save us, now would he, so your understanding of what God is implying there, in those verses must be incorrect, that is what I believe.

You said it the other day; Calvinists have two types of Love and two types of Hate. As you get used to me, you'll see that I always talk about the Logical Fallacy of making a Category Mistake; either yoingu are making a Category Mistake by having only one Category of Hate, or I am by having two Categories of hate...

First, let us recognize that Category Mistakes are not part of the Bible but can be a part of Theology; these are the Theology Boards. There are the Doctrines of Miaphystism and the Hypostatic Union; which differ Categorically...

Currently you are doing what I do, and are using a belief Calvinists teach against these Calvinists; God hates All Evil doers means he hates the Apple of his eye too. If you are like the Poster named Christian, you have God's Love displayed in two Categories; love, and Love less. The reason the Categories exist is Moot to the Argument, but he says the Categories exist. Currently you are arguing that Categories of Hate exist, because you are using our Argument; though you don't believe our Argument. In Argumentation, a Negative point doesn't disqualify a Positive point; and you are Arguing that God hates All Evildoers as a Positive point; but you are doing so surreptitiously while only believing in one Category of Hate. You are suggesting to us that God Loves us, then Hates us; then Loves us again. This opposes the Verse which says God does not change lest we are destroyed. I suggest to you that this means God has two Categories of Love and Hate which are Unconditional. I suggest God has a Conditional hatred for All Evil doers which is performanced based. This can be seen in the two Categories of Covenants; the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. There is the Unconditional Love of Election but the Conditional love of Justification; and the Unconditional Hatred of Reprobation and the Conditional hatred of being Guilty...

 

[Christian]

You said it the other day; Calvinists have two types of Love and two types of Hate. As you get used to me, you'll see that I always talk about the Logical Fallacy of making a Category Mistake; either you or we are making a Category Mistake by having only one Category of Hate, or two Categories of hate...

First, let us recognize that Category Mistakes are not part of the Bible but can be a part of Theology; these are the Theology Boards. There are the Doctrines of Miaphystism and the Hypostatic Union; which differ Categorically...

Currently you are doing what I do, and use a belief we teach against us; God hates All Evil doers means he hates the Apple of his eye too. If you are like the Poster Christian, you have God's Love displayed in two Categories; love, and Love less. The reason the Categories exist is Moot to the Argument, because he says the Categories exist. Currently you are arguing that Categories of Hate exist, because you are using our Argument; though you don't believe out Argument. In Argumentation, a Negative point doesn't disqualify a Positive point; and you are Arguing that God hates All Evildoers; but you are doing so surreptitiously through the use of one Category of Hate. You are suggesting to us that God Loves us, then Hates us; then Loves us again. This opposes the Verse which says God does not change lest we are destroyed. I suggest to you that this means God has two Categories of Love and Hate which are Unconditional. I suggest God has a Conditional hatred for All Evil doers which is performanced based. This can be seen in the two Categories of Covenants; the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. There is the Unconditional Love of Election but the Conditional love of Justification; and the Unconditional Hatred of Reprobation and the Conditional hatred of being Guilty...

more philosophy rev.

you have yet to prove from scripture these categories even exist.

 

[Howie]

So by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner,

Ok

it's strange that he choose you from the foundation of the world, he must have loved you then, then when you sinned he hated you and then loved you again.

You think so?

No getting around that verse, he hates all who do injustice

Yes, he does.

and has a sinner we all know we have done injustice, so God must hate us, unless God doesn't mean it that way and he just hates what we do, otherwise that hatred would apply to those who have not been saved yet, but will be, if they are in a state of hatred with God, why does he save people he hates?

God will forgive you, Lee. If you repent of your sin and believe the Gospel. Are you ready to do that?

So given you believe this, will you be going up to people who you witness to and tell them God hates them, repent. Isn't there a group like that in the US, Westboro Baptist Church?

I'm witnessing to you, Lee, and I'm telling you, God will forgive your sin and love you, if you repent of your sin and believe. Are you ready to do that?

They picket funerals with banners say God hates you, so would you join them and hold up a banner proclaiming God hates you, repent.

Lee, as with them, so with you, they lack understanding and have a stilted view of God. There stilted view is, God is hate, yours is God is Love. God has other attributes, Lee, not just one, and your church does you a disservice not teaching you that.


I would encourage them as I'm now encouraging you, leave your current church and get into a healthy well- balanced church. PM me the name of the city you live in, and let's see if together we can find you good church.

God hates your feelings, thank God for dead soldiers. Well God hates all who do violence, so that must come from scripture too. You are in agreement with that then Howie?

Let's find a good church for you, Lee.

Are you a member of the Westboro Baptist Church?

Is Satan still your Father, Lee? Your behavior toward Scripture's truth says you might be. Have you considered that?

I believe God loves sinners J3:16

So do I, Lee.

otherwise he wouldn't save us, now would he,

Are you sure He's saved you, Lee?

so your understanding of what God is implying there, in those verses must be incorrect, that is what I believe.

Lee, Christians don't reject Scripture, as you are doing. You need to repent and find a good church.

 

[ReverendRV]

more philosophy rev.

you have yet to prove from scripture these categories even exist.

Welcome back, I hope your Thanksgiving was great...

 

[Christian]

Welcome back, I hope your Thanksgiving was great...

Was great ate at the pastors house with my wife and a couple guys from out Thursday morning mens discipleship group-

How was yours ?

 

[ReverendRV]

Was great ate at the pastors house with my wife and a couple guys from out Thursday morning mens discipleship group-

How was yours ?

Sad...

Ma passed a couple months ago. Everyone had Thanksgiving at their houses and I didn't get invited; should have crashed one. My daughter spent a couple of days gone to the other side of Atlanta with her maternal side; she did this without her mother since her family has shunned my daughter's mother. My roommate went to his family's though, and brought me some pie. I stayed home...

I know this will correct itself over time though...

The devil hates me and my Gospel Tracts a lot...

 

[Christian]

Sad...

Ma passed a couple months ago. Everyone had Thanksgiving at their houses and I didn't get invited; should have crashed one. My daughter spent a couple of days gone to the other side of Atlanta with her maternal side; she did this without her mother since her family has shunned my daughter's mother. My roommate went to his family's though, and brought me some pie. I stayed home...

I know this will correct itself over time though...

The devil hates me and my Gospel Tracts a lot...

oh brother I'm sorry to hear this about your family situation. ?

 

[Christian]

comparing calvinist teachings with the gospel in scripture

c- Jesus came to save only the elect
A- Jesus came to save the world
c- Jesus died only for the elect
A- Jesus died for all the sins of man, all the sin of the world
c- God chose the elect for salvation and caused them to believe
A- God sent Jesus to be the propitiation for all man, all the world- all who believe will be saved
c- Jesus is the light of the elect chosen out of the world
A- Jesus is the light of the World so that the world might be saved through Him
c-only the elect were chosen before the world by Gods meticulous predetermined plan
A- the elect are those who by faith are saved in Christ
c- Jesus is the lamb of God who only takes away the sin of the elect
A- Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world
c- God so loved the elect that He gave His only Son
A- God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only Son

hope this helps !!!

 

[LeeH]

Ok

What does okay mean, does that mean yes "by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner"
Why not give a clear answer?

You think so?

I am going by your definition God hates sinners, you stated it, so it's your claim, which you support with scripture, which is fine, I accept that scripture.

Yes, he does.

When you was an unsaved sinner, you did injustice, so by your own DEFINITION, God hated you.

God will forgive you, Lee. If you repent of your sin and believe the Gospel. Are you ready to do that?

You are now making a promise on behalf of God, but has a Calvinist you can't make that claim, if I am non-elect, I can't believe the gospel. You can't know whether I am elect or not, so you are not in a position to promise or claim anything on behalf of God.

I'm witnessing to you, Lee, and I'm telling you, God will forgive your sin and love you, if you repent of your sin and believe. Are you ready to do that?

So Gods love is conditional if you repent and believe, wow, you almost sound like us now, your getting there. Again you can't know if I am elect, so you can't promise me Gods love or anything on behalf of God has a Calvinist. Making a promise on behalf of God and if God cannot fullfill that promise, ie, I am not elect, that would be a sin wouldn't it?

If I said God has told me he will heal your friend today and it doesn't happen, what does that make me? You should be careful what you say on behalf of God, shouldn't you? You can't know whether I am elect or not, yet you are making claims here, on behalf of God.

Lee, as with them, so with you, they lack understanding and have a stilted view of God. There stilted view is, God is hate, yours is God is Love.

God is love is scriptural.

God has other attributes, Lee, not just one, and your church does you a disservice not teaching you that.

Show me the verse where Gods attribute is hate, ie God is hate.

I would encourage them as I'm now encouraging you, leave your current church and get into a healthy well- balanced church. PM me the name of the city you live in, and let's see if together we can find you good church.
Let's find a good church for you, Lee.

I love what you said there, God always opens doors for me to share testimony and I fancy he opened one there for me to share how I found my church. Praise God.

I trusted in God to find me a church and I said to the Lord show me, guide me where you want me to go and he did, I felt the Lord telling me to leave my home town and go on foot, walking has I did, he said go foward, keep going forward, don't go back, go forward and so I did, I was walking for 3 miles and then I came to a stop the road was shut down, but not just the road, the pavement too, there was no way athrough, they had shut down a bridge for major construction. I had this dreadful thought come over me, that maybe God was not guiding me and I was imagining it. Then I thought, something made me think, if I went back and went around, I was still going forward, so I did. I carried on walking for a further 3 miles and something made me stop and on the others side of the road was church with a big silver cross. I felt God was saying I want you to go to this church, so I did, the next day.

The church was a pentecostal, with about 120 people there and I was sitting there and the pastor got up on stage and started saying, keep going forward, don't go back, keep going foward and he then said if you come to a dead end and you can't go forward, just go back and go around, you are still going forward. When he finished, he looked at me and pointed to me and said I think that message is for you. Of course I knew it was, what he said was word for word. God had found me a church.

The next week I sat next to a woman and we got talking and I said I am web developer, she said, why did you say that, why did you tell me your a web developer, I said I don't know, I wasn't sure why I said. She was overjoyed because she had been praying to the Lord for her to be able to find a web developer to build a new website for a mission they have in Africa.

That's how I found my church.

So you reckon you can find a better church for me than God, are you serious?
How did you find yours, want to tell me?

Is Satan still your Father, Lee?

Jesus is my God, you would be wise to tread carefully when making such claims.

Your behavior toward Scripture's truth says you might be. Have you considered that?

What, like when you claimed you had to be indwelt with Holy Spirit to be regenerated before you can believe and I showed you how Thomas refused to believe until he saw Jesus and when he did, he believed, he wasn't regenerated. So there you have at least one instance where you can believe where you don't need to be regenerated. Jesus even says you believed on me because you saw me.

So do I, Lee.

So can he love them and hate them at the same time?

Are you sure He's saved you, Lee?

I have lots of fantastic testimony, I know God and he knows me. I am sure, yes, but thanks for asking.

Lee, Christians don't reject Scripture, as you are doing.

I refer you to Thomas, who doubted Jesus, but when he saw him, he believed and called him Lord, fullfilling the gospel on what it is to be saved, this is before he was regenerated, received the Holy Spirit. Jesus even said you believed because you saw.

I don't reject scripture, I reject your interpretation of it. Answer me the above, how could Thomas believe Jesus was Lord without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, unless you believe the Holy Spirit lives in people who refuse to believe in Jesus, that he rose from the dead. Even so Thomas clearly didn't have the Holy Spirit at that time.

Your regeneration theology is flawed, that one example proves it to be.

You need to repent

You should, for suggesting my father might be the devil.

and find a good church.

How did you find your church, got any testimony, how did God lead you there or did you pick it yourself?

 

[Christian]

What does okay mean, does that mean yes "by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner"
Why not give a clear answer?

I am going by your definition God hates sinners, you stated it, so it's your claim, which you support with scripture, which is fine, I accept that scripture.

When you was an unsaved sinner, you did injustice, so by your own DEFINITION, God hated you.

You are now making a promise on behalf of God, but has a Calvinist you can't make that claim, if I am non-elect, I can't believe the gospel. You can't know whether I am elect or not, so you are not in a position to promise or claim anything on behalf of God.

So Gods love is conditional if you repent and believe, wow, you almost sound like us now, your getting there. Again you can't know if I am elect, so you can't promise me Gods love or anything on behalf of God has a Calvinist. Making a promise on behalf of God and if God cannot fullfill that promise, ie, I am not elect, that would be a sin wouldn't it?

If I said God has told me he will heal your friend today and it doesn't happen, what does that make me? You should be careful what you say on behalf of God, shouldn't you? You can't know whether I am elect or not, yet you are making claims here, on behalf of God.

God is love is scriptural.

Show me the verse where Gods attribute is hate, ie God is hate.

I love what you said there, God always opens doors for me to share testimony and I fancy he opened one there for me to share how I found my church. Praise God.

I trusted in God to find me a church and I said to the Lord show me, guide me where you want me to go and he did, I felt the Lord telling me to leave my home town and go on foot, walking has I did, he said go foward, keep going forward, don't go back, go forward and so I did, I was walking for 3 miles and then I came to a stop the road was shut down, but not just the road, the pavement too, there was no way athrough, they had shut down a bridge for major construction. I had this dreadful thought come over me, that maybe God was not guiding me and I was imagining it. Then I thought, something made me think, if I went back and went around, I was still going forward, so I did. I carried on walking for a further 3 miles and something made me stop and on the others side of the road was church with a big silver cross. I felt God was saying I want you to go to this church, so I did, the next day.

The church was a pentecostal, with about 120 people there and I was sitting there and the pastor got up on stage and started saying, keep going forward, don't go back, keep going foward and he then said if you come to a dead end and you can't go forward, just go back and go around, you are still going forward. When he finished, he looked at me and pointed to me and said I think that message is for you. Of course I knew it was, what he said was word for word. God had found me a church.

The next week I sat next to a woman and we got talking and I said I am web developer, she said, why did you say that, why did you tell me your a web developer, I said I don't know, I wasn't sure why I said. She was overjoyed because she had been praying to the Lord for her to be able to find a web developer to build a new website for a mission they have in Africa.

That's how I found my church.

So you reckon you can find a better church for me than God, are you serious?
How did you find yours, want to tell me?

Jesus is my God, you would be wise to tread carefully when making such claims.

What, like when you claimed you had to be indwelt with Holy Spirit to be regenerated before you can believe and I showed you how Thomas refused to believe until he saw Jesus and when he did, he believed, he wasn't regenerated. So there you have at least one instance where you can believe where you don't need to be regenerated. Jesus even says you believed on me because you saw me.


So can he love them and hate them at the same time?

I have lots of fantastic testimony, I know God and he knows me. I am sure, yes, but thanks for asking.

I refer you to Thomas, who doubted Jesus, but when he saw him, he believed and called him Lord, fullfilling the gospel on what it is to be saved, this is before he was regenerated, received the Holy Spirit. Jesus even said you believed because you saw.

I don't reject scripture, I reject your interpretation of it. Answer me the above, how could Thomas believe Jesus was Lord without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, unless you believe the Holy Spirit lives in people who refuse to believe in Jesus, that he rose from the dead. Even so Thomas clearly didn't have the Holy Spirit at that time.

Your regeneration theology is flawed, that one example proves it to be.

You should, for suggesting my father might be the devil.

How did you find your church, got any testimony, how did God lead you there or did you pick it yourself?

Amen !

 

[Howie]

What does okay mean, does that mean yes "by that definition God hated you when you was a sinner"
Why not give a clear answer?

I am going by your definition God hates sinners, you stated it, so it's your claim, which you support with scripture, which is fine, I accept that scripture.

When you was an unsaved sinner, you did injustice, so by your own DEFINITION, God hated you.

You are now making a promise on behalf of God, but has a Calvinist you can't make that claim, if I am non-elect, I can't believe the gospel. You can't know whether I am elect or not, so you are not in a position to promise or claim anything on behalf of God.

So Gods love is conditional if you repent and believe, wow, you almost sound like us now, your getting there. Again you can't know if I am elect, so you can't promise me Gods love or anything on behalf of God has a Calvinist. Making a promise on behalf of God and if God cannot fullfill that promise, ie, I am not elect, that would be a sin wouldn't it?

If I said God has told me he will heal your friend today and it doesn't happen, what does that make me? You should be careful what you say on behalf of God, shouldn't you? You can't know whether I am elect or not, yet you are making claims here, on behalf of God.

God is love is scriptural.

Show me the verse where Gods attribute is hate, ie God is hate.

I love what you said there, God always opens doors for me to share testimony and I fancy he opened one there for me to share how I found my church. Praise God.

I trusted in God to find me a church and I said to the Lord show me, guide me where you want me to go and he did, I felt the Lord telling me to leave my home town and go on foot, walking has I did, he said go foward, keep going forward, don't go back, go forward and so I did, I was walking for 3 miles and then I came to a stop the road was shut down, but not just the road, the pavement too, there was no way athrough, they had shut down a bridge for major construction. I had this dreadful thought come over me, that maybe God was not guiding me and I was imagining it. Then I thought, something made me think, if I went back and went around, I was still going forward, so I did. I carried on walking for a further 3 miles and something made me stop and on the others side of the road was church with a big silver cross. I felt God was saying I want you to go to this church, so I did, the next day.

The church was a pentecostal, with about 120 people there and I was sitting there and the pastor got up on stage and started saying, keep going forward, don't go back, keep going foward and he then said if you come to a dead end and you can't go forward, just go back and go around, you are still going forward. When he finished, he looked at me and pointed to me and said I think that message is for you. Of course I knew it was, what he said was word for word. God had found me a church.

The next week I sat next to a woman and we got talking and I said I am web developer, she said, why did you say that, why did you tell me your a web developer, I said I don't know, I wasn't sure why I said. She was overjoyed because she had been praying to the Lord for her to be able to find a web developer to build a new website for a mission they have in Africa.

That's how I found my church.

So you reckon you can find a better church for me than God, are you serious?
How did you find yours, want to tell me?

Jesus is my God, you would be wise to tread carefully when making such claims.

What, like when you claimed you had to be indwelt with Holy Spirit to be regenerated before you can believe and I showed you how Thomas refused to believe until he saw Jesus and when he did, he believed, he wasn't regenerated. So there you have at least one instance where you can believe where you don't need to be regenerated. Jesus even says you believed on me because you saw me.


So can he love them and hate them at the same time?

I have lots of fantastic testimony, I know God and he knows me. I am sure, yes, but thanks for asking.

I refer you to Thomas, who doubted Jesus, but when he saw him, he believed and called him Lord, fullfilling the gospel on what it is to be saved, this is before he was regenerated, received the Holy Spirit. Jesus even said you believed because you saw.

I don't reject scripture, I reject your interpretation of it. Answer me the above, how could Thomas believe Jesus was Lord without being regenerated by the Holy Spirit, unless you believe the Holy Spirit lives in people who refuse to believe in Jesus, that he rose from the dead. Even so Thomas clearly didn't have the Holy Spirit at that time.

Your regeneration theology is flawed, that one example proves it to be.

You should, for suggesting my father might be the devil.

How did you find your church, got any testimony, how did God lead you there or did you pick it yourself?

Just acknowledging I read your response, Lee, going to wipe off my shoes next.