What is the salvific effect of the Cross?

Are we looking for the exact time or something? How does that effect our Christian lives? Who cares about the exact time it went into effect?

The cross event must not be divided from the sacrifice who was on that cross. It is the sacrificial Lamb who saves, not just an event.

My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
 
The cross event must not be divided from the sacrifice who was on that cross. It is the sacrificial Lamb who saves, not just an event.
AMEN!

Tell that to your Protestant cohorts. That was what I was attempting to explain. They insist on taking a non-linear "thing" (for lack of a better word) and making it linear. A circle has no beginning. Redemption is not linear. It may have components that are linear, but it cannot be reduced to events, days, and times--which seems to be what your cohorts on this site are attempting to do in their attempts to explain away the Last Supper as a symbol.

Our redemption cannot be reduced to one event in the earthly life of Christ. It is the entirety of the earthly life of Christ, and, in fact, WHO and WHAT CHrist IS that is redemptive. Christ did not start sacrificing himself and end sacrificing himself, Christ IS (present tense) THE sacrifice. Sacrifice is the essence of God the Son. In other words----when I say Christ IS the sacrifice, I am not describing what Christ did, I am naming Christ. It is what and who God the Son IS.

Think of it like this:

God attempts to translate who and what Christ IS in the eternity of heaven into our physical reality so we can see and understand it. In earthly, physical flesh, the life of Christ---especially as revealed on the Cross--is what the life of God the Son looks like when stripped of heavenly realities and projected into our reality. The Resurrection reveals what the sacrifice looks like when transformed and perfected with heavenly realities--when glorified and when stripped of earthly limitations. Christ is the eternal sacrifice. The resurrection allows God the Son to continuously offer Himself before the throne of the Father without the limitations of earthly flesh--that is---Christ no longer suffers and dies--but LIVES to make intercession before us. Christ is the LIVING sacrifice.
 
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AMEN!

Tell that to your Protestant cohorts. That was what I was attempting to explain. They insist on taking a non-linear "thing" (for lack of a better word) and making it linear. A circle has no beginning. Redemption is not linear. It may have components that are linear, but it cannot be reduced to events, days, and times--which seems to be what your cohorts on this site are attempting to do in their attempts to explain away the Last Supper as a symbol.

Our redemption cannot be reduced to one event in the earthly life of Christ. It is the entirety of the earthly life of Christ, and, in fact, WHO and WHAT CHrist IS that is redemptive. Christ did not start sacrificing himself and end sacrificing himself, Christ IS (present tense) THE sacrifice. Sacrifice is the essence of God the Son. In other words----when I say Christ IS the sacrifice, I am not describing what Christ did, I am naming Christ. It is what and who God the Son IS.

Think of it like this:

God attempts to translate who and what Christ IS in the eternity of heaven into our physical reality so we can see and understand it. In earthly, physical flesh, the life of Christ---especially as revealed on the Cross--is what the life of God the Son looks like when stripped of heavenly realities and projected into our reality. The Resurrection reveals what the sacrifice looks like when transformed and perfected with heavenly realities--when glorified and when stripped of earthly limitations. Christ is the eternal sacrifice. The resurrection allows God the Son to continuously offer Himself before the throne of the Father without the limitations of earthly flesh--that is---Christ no longer suffers and dies--but LIVES to make intercession before us. Christ is the LIVING sacrifice.
No you have not tried to explain it at all. You have tried to justify the RCC false teachings.

By the way all non RCs know it is about who was sacrificed, no one believes the two who died with Jesus had anything to do with salvation.

Of course it is linear. The plan was implied in Genesis. But the sacrifice happened on the cross. It did not happen at the Last Supper. It is RCs who are trying to justify their eating Jesus by making out it is non linear.

As another poster has posted so many times, the answer is in Hebrews, which RCs just ignore.
 
Mk. 1:15
14 Now after that John was put in prison,
Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying,
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the gospel
.


Gal. 4:1
4 Now I say,
That the heir, as long as he is a child,
differeth nothing from a servant,
though he be lord of all;

2 But is under :devilish: tutors and governors :devilish: until
the time appointed
of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children,
were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come,
God sent forth his Son, made of a woman,
made under the law,

Genesis 8:8
Also he sent forth a dove from him,
to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground;

9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot,
and she returned unto him into the ark,
for the waters were on the face of the whole earth:
then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark.

10 And he stayed yet other seven days;
and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark;

11 And the dove came in to him in the evening;
and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off:
so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

12 And he stayed yet other seven days;
and sent forth the dove;
which returned not again unto him any more.

-----------and the Dove returns---------

And it came to pass in those days,
that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee,
and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water,
he saw the heavens opened,
and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him
11 And there came a voice from heaven,
saying,
Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:
repent ye, and believe the gospel.​
 
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A circle has no beginning.

In other words: you are attempting to take something that isn't linear and make it linear.

Put in yet other words:

Yes; that is, the propitiatory was put into effect at the Last Supper, the propitiatory was put into effect on the Cross, the propitiatory was put into effect when Jesus was conceived, born, grew, lived his life, etc.

The WHOLE of the life of Christ is the propitiatory. For that matter Christ Himself IS the propitiatory. Every action of Christ is the propitiatory.

What is it with you Protestants insisting that everything in the Faith has to be linear? Why are you so obsessed with nailing everything down to a point in time? There was NEVER a time when Christ was not the propitiatory.
If that were true then Christ would not have had to die. His propitiation was appeasement of God's wrath for sin. That did NOT happen before the cross! The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, at the DEATH of Jesus, establishing the new covenant. Now we no longer need priests, all Christians are now priest and can go directly to Christ Who intercedes for us. There was NO propitiation, forgiveness of sin, or salvation before the cross. Jesus is our sacrifice and forgiveness of sin could not happen until Jesus died. And Jesus had to suffer the wrath of God for a propitiation (a satisfaction of God's wrath for sin.)
 
If that were true then Christ would not have had to die. His propitiation was appeasement of God's wrath for sin. That did NOT happen before the cross! The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, at the DEATH of Jesus, establishing the new covenant. Now we no longer need priests, all Christians are now priest and can go directly to Christ Who intercedes for us. There was NO propitiation, forgiveness of sin, or salvation before the cross. Jesus is our sacrifice and forgiveness of sin could not happen until Jesus died. And Jesus had to suffer the wrath of God for a propitiation (a satisfaction of God's wrath for sin.)
According to Hebrews, eternal redemption was obtained until Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in the heavenly tabernacle.
 
According to Hebrews, eternal redemption was obtained until Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in the heavenly tabernacle.

This is nothing more than one of your redirects to deflect the necessity of trusting Christ alone and that Jesus has done all the work of redemption for us on the cross. The writer of Hebrews was showing an analogy of how much more superior the new covenant is, to the old covenant. Namely Christ Himself. Christ is the greater and more perfect Tabernacle than the one made by the hands of Moses. We must come to God on HIS terms, not the rcc's terms.

The idea that Jesus carried His blood up to heaven and into the Holy of Holies to sprinkle blood on the mercy seat is an Adventist teaching. And a heretical teaching at that.

John 19:30
When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
 
]
According to Hebrews, eternal redemption was obtained until Jesus entered the Holy of Holies in the heavenly tabernacle.
When Christ ascended to the Father
who did he take with him??????

hint-hint
the 4 and 20 elders
And in process of time it came to pass,
that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.​
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:​
 
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so according to you; propitiation did not take place at the Last Supper
thanks
So, I am tired of explaining this over, and over, and over, again. You keep asking the question as if the answer is going to change and or we are going to throw up our hands and go "We don't know, you got us! The Last Supper is a mere symbol."

What don't you understand about "A circle has no beginning?"

What don't you understand about "This is not linear?"

What don't you understand about "Redemption cannot be pigeonholed into one event?"

Thanks!
 
If that were true then Christ would not have had to die. His propitiation was appeasement of God's wrath for sin.
Yes, this is nothing if not classic Protestant soteriology. The cross event is about appeasing an angry, bloodthirsty, vengeful God, and Jesus redirecting God's wrath away from us and on to him. You Protestants, especially the fundamentalists absolutely LOVE the wrath of God.
That did NOT happen before the cross! The veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom, at the DEATH of Jesus, establishing the new covenant. Now we no longer need priests, all Christians are now priest and can go directly to Christ Who intercedes for us. There was NO propitiation, forgiveness of sin, or salvation before the cross. Jesus is our sacrifice and forgiveness of sin could not happen until Jesus died. And Jesus had to suffer the wrath of God for a propitiation (a satisfaction of God's wrath for sin.)
It is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus, but it does not follow from this that our redemption boils down to one singular event. If redemption boils down solely to the cross---was everything in the life of Christ that came before and after superfluous?
 
So, I am tired of explaining this over, and over, and over, again. You keep asking the question as if the answer is going to change and or we are going to throw up our hands and go "We don't know, you got us! The Last Supper is a mere symbol."

What don't you understand about "A circle has no beginning?"

What don't you understand about "This is not linear?"

What don't you understand about "Redemption cannot be pigeonholed into one event?"

Thanks!
Because I don't think the circle analogy is correct:
It is linear
for ex: the resurrections came after the crucifiction.
There was a moment in time when propitiation had not yet been made: then there was a time when propitiation had occurred
The was a time when the New covenant was not in effect then it was:
There was a time when the penalty for sin had not yet been pid: then it was.

Up to that point: The sacrificial death of the Lamb of God was the greatest single event in the history of salvation.
We preach Christ crucified
a one time event: never to be repeated.
 
Yes, this is nothing if not classic Protestant soteriology. The cross event is about appeasing an angry, bloodthirsty, vengeful God, and Jesus redirecting God's wrath away from us and on to him. You Protestants, especially the fundamentalists absolutely LOVE the wrath of God.

It is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus, but it does not follow from this that our redemption boils down to one singular event. If redemption boils down solely to the cross---was everything in the life of Christ that came before and after superfluous?
You have a very serious lack of biblical knowledge. There is NO way you will EVER justify your religion with scripture. I'll give you an A for effort, but you still get Fs for substance!
 
it is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus, but it does not follow from this that our redemption boils down to one singular event. If redemption boils down solely to the cross---was everything in the life of Christ that came before and after superfluous?
No : He was tempted in every way we were. yet He lived a sinless life .
He was the Lamb without blemish,

Propitiation > from Jesus' death
New Covenant going in effect> from Jesus' death
Sins being paid> from Jesus' death
The death of Christ on the Cross is salvific: not pouring wine into a cup
If His blood was poured out at the Last Supper: then His death on the Cross is meaningless.

"For by the blood of Christ we are set free, that is, our sins are forgiven. How great is the grace of God,"
 
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Because I don't think the circle analogy is correct:
It is linear
for ex: the resurrections came after the crucifiction.
There was a moment in time when propitiation had not yet been made: then there was a time when propitiation had occurred
The was a time when the New covenant was not in effect then it was:
There was a time when the penalty for sin had not yet been pid: then it was.
See, you attempt to pigeonhole redemption to one singular event--and I simply do not think that can be done. For starters, if redemption was all about the Cross and nothing more---was everything that happened before that even superfluous? In other words---the life of Christ was only about getting to the Cross?

I believe the circle analogy is most correct. The Gospel of John in particular often presents redemption as an already, and not yet reality--at one and the same time. Scripture scholars use a fancy word for this: "Proleptic." In other words--the New Covenant is a reality that is already present, but is also not yet present.

The entirety of the earthly life of Christ redeems and inaugurates the new Covenant, not just the cross. The Cross is the most important singular event in salvation history, sure. That I would agree with. But it does not follow that redemption can be pigeonholed to the Cross.

But I can understand why you are so obsessed with wanting redemption to be reduced to one singular event on the Cross. You need it to be that way---so you can continue to dismiss the Last Supper as merely symbolic.
Up to that point: The sacrificial death of the Lamb of God was the greatest single event in the history of salvation.
We preach Christ crucified
a one time event: never to be repeated.
Correct; but it does not follow Christ ceased to be the offering.
 
[[
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eph. 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Yes, this is nothing if not classic Protestant soteriology. The cross event is about appeasing an angry, bloodthirsty, vengeful God, and Jesus redirecting God's wrath away from us and on to him. You Protestants, especially the fundamentalists absolutely LOVE the wrath of God.

It is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus, but it does not follow from this that our redemption boils down to one singular event. If redemption boils down solely to the cross---was everything in the life of Christ that came before and after superfluous?
ROP says
It is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe you can explain to them what Paul meant
intend to convey, indicate, or refer to (a particular thing or notion); signify:

"and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,"​

that ye being in time past Gentiles..
That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:​

[[
 
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[[
Gen.3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
and between thy seed and her seed;
it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Eph. 2:11
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh,
who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off
are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


ROP says
It is true that the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom with the death of Jesus,
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Maybe you can explain to them what Paul meant
intend to convey, indicate, or refer to (a particular thing or notion); signify:

"and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;​
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,"​

that ye being in time past Gentiles..
That at that time ye were without Christ,
being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel,
and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope, and without God in the world:​

[[
Those are different enmities. One is between the devil and the Woman, the other is between man and God.
 
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