On Fuzzy free will words

ReverendRV said:
This is why I mostly stay out of the Free Will Debate; sooner or later both sides will agree there is no such thing as %100 Contra Causal Libertarian Free Will, and there is no such thing as %100 Bondage of the Will. The WCF confesses the Liberty of the Will is established; this is about as far as I will step my toe into the argument...

This means that both sides have a percentage of Liberty and Bondage; this is what's being argued. Let's use the arbitrary number %50. If we think the Will is %75 or %25 Free; we will bleed to death on the battlefield as if the percentages were %100 or %0. All the while knowing that we're both in the middle somewhere...

Vanity of Vanities...
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We are enslaved in sin, so our free will is in bondage to a degree, however when a person is tempted to do evil, but backs off and says no, haven't they exercised their free will and overcome their sinful nature for that time? There free will was not to break a commandment, not because they care for Gods commandment, but morally they see that has wrong. It happens every day, so to say we have no free will at all is simply not what we observe.

I have never believed we have total free will like Adam and Eve, it is very limited, I am not sue what Calvinist believe, I can't speak for them.
 
Theo1689 said:
Once again, I'll urge the reader to consider....

Two little girls are playing in the street. Suddenly two cars come racing down the street at high speed, directly at the girls. One father yells at his daughter to get out of the street, and when she doesn't, he races over and "irresistibly" grabbed his daughter and dragged her to safety. The other father "wooed" his daughter by pleading for her to get out of her street, but respected her free will as she was run over and killed.

Which father was more "loving"?
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Neither of them, of course. The two idiots fathers never taught their daughters NOT TO PLAY IN THE STREET.
 
Two little girls are playing in the street. Suddenly two cars come racing down the street at high speed, directly at the girls. One father yells at his daughter to get out of the street, and when she doesn't, he races over and "irresistibly" grabbed his daughter and dragged her to safety.

The other father "wooed" his daughter by pleading for her to get out of her street, but respected her free will as she was run over and killed.

Which father was more "loving"?
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If this is supposed to be about which father is likely to be the biblical one, I prefer this one spoken by Jesus himself not a man made analogy.

The Parable of the Lost Son​

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

Does the father force the son back to safety, even though he is perishing, don't think so. The young mans circumstances change and that is what causes him to start the thought process of repentence and return. His father does not intervene.
 
LeeH said:
If this is supposed to be about which father is likely to be the biblical one, I prefer this one spoken by Jesus himself not a man made analogy.

The Parable of the Lost Son​

11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them.

13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything.

17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father.

“But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him.

21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate.

25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’

28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’

31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”

Does the father force the son back to safety, even though he is perishing, don't think so. The young mans circumstances change and that is what causes him to start the thought process of repentence and return. His father does not intervene.
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First of all, good job "ignoring" me...

Second of all, great job DODGING my point.

Finally, great job IGNORING THE CONTEXT of Luke 15, "the parable of the lost coin", and "the parable of the lost sheep".

Did the coins use "free will" to make their way to the owner?
Did the sheep use their "free will" to make their way back to the shepherd?

Nope.
 
LeeH said:
We are enslaved in sin, so our free will is in bondage to a degree, however when a person is tempted to do evil, but backs off and says no, haven't they exercised their free will and overcome their sinful nature for that time? There free will was not to break a commandment, not because they care for Gods commandment, but morally they see that has wrong. It happens every day, so to say we have no free will at all is simply not what we observe.

I have never believed we have total free will like Adam and Eve, it is very limited, I am not sue what Calvinist believe, I can't speak for them.
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Calvinists believe that the Liberty of the Will is established as a Secondary Cause. WCF c2 p1...

It's why the Free Will argument is frivolous...

No %100 Liberty, no %100 Bondage; IE no Argument...
 
Rockson said:
That still is not being forced to do something in the context of what we're talking about....God using irresistible grace.

All throughout the Bible God seeks to correct. Sometimes they listen to him and sometimes they wouldn't.
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Simpletruther said:
One of those words is "influence".

It's never truly defined, and as such logical problems are hidden with its use.

Proposition:

An influence on a choice either:

1. Causes a certain choice.
2. Changes the statistical likelihood of a certain choice.
3. Is irrelevant to the certain choice made.

The first two logically result in determinism, if we make choices based on influences.

But if we do not make choices based on influences, the choices are arbitrary.
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Basically it's not you who freely chooses or not chooses Jesus...its influence that makes that choice for you.
 
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