“Just Because God Foreknows…” (Rebuttal)…
- Thread starter Sketo
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ReverendRV
Well-known member
Phrased that way, the answer can only be God Determined every Action...
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Excellent
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Right, it's called presupposition or begging the question.
ReverendRV
Well-known member
Tell that to the OP...
Reformedguy
Well-known member
What question is it begging?
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
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Reformedguy
Well-known member
Well there are two options as it pertains to God's foreknowledge. Either He knows because He determined the future or He knows by simple observation.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
Except that the OP states 'proves'; therefore, the OP begs the question.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Do you disagree if something is foreknown it by necessity was determined by something. I don't think that question begging anything.
God's foreknowedge doesn't always follow God's intent. God is often displeased, proving libertarianism.
PeanutGallery
Well-known member
If God foreknows that I will always reject TULIP, does not necessitate that God meticulously determined me to always reject TULIP.
Sketo
Well-known member
This proves that something determined that you will always reject tulip...
So what was that THING that "meticulously determined you to always reject TULIP"...
...before anything was created?
...
Sketo
Well-known member
Then why does he "allow" it in your view?
Was God "forced" to "allow" it in your view?
See even your view can't escape a level of "God's intent".
Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Psa 135:6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
The fact that God's outeractions of Planning, Purposing, and determining all things includes his own interactions into his story, for a purpose, does not prove "libertarian" actions on man's part.
Your negative philosophy can not positivly justify your assumption...
Positively justify your claim please.
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PeanutGallery
Well-known member
God's foreknowledge of what I would determine in the future.
Foreknowledge is not proof that all things are determined or predestined. Foreknowledge simply requires predestination. It's a logical necessity.
For anything to exist requires existence, and existence must necessarily be eternal with no beginning or end.
It's a logical necessity, and to claim otherwise leads to violations of the law of non-contradiction.
Sketo
Well-known member
Of course… we both believe this… but do you assume you determined what “you will determine in the future” before you were created?
Unless you believe God “learned”… God’s knowledge is proof that “what you will determine in the future” has already been Determined… now the only thing left for you to do is justify what that THING is that Determined “what you will determine in the future” before you were created…
Can you justify your answer?
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God wanted to allow libertarianism.
That is correct.
Apparently not all God's intents and actions succeed, otherwise He would not have to constantly get angry with disobedience and punish them to bring them back or eliminate them.
Apparently God succeeds and makes His purpose stand by making up for disobedience by convincing towards righteousness and rooting out sin.
God did whatever He pleased but apparently God was pleased with giving libertarian choice as part of it.
Why don't you justify why I need to have positive philosophy? Meticulous predetermination is posative philosophy? The fact that God gets angered at us is clear enough for libertarianism.
I'm not convinced that God must determine the future. God is the cause or origin of a determined future, but I don't see why it would necessarily follow that God must have been the one to determine the future.
While we can read of God seeing the end from the beginning, these anthropomorphic depictions aren't literal. We know this because the kingdom of God does not manifest or come by observation.