“Spirit of Jesus” versus Jesus “anointed with the Spirit”

docphin5

docphin5

Well-known member
Paul’s epistles equate the inner Jesus as the Holy Spirit in multiple places. Moreover, according to Paul‘s epistles Jesus was before all things, sums up all things, holds all things together.

”spirit of Jesus” (Phill 1:19)
“Now the Lord is the Spirit, … For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.” (2 cor 3:17)
”And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (col 1:17)
“to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.” (Eph 1:10)

iN CONTRAST,

The Gospel stories describe an earthly Jesus who did not have the holy spirit before his baptism.

”because he has anointed me” (Luke 4:18)
”the Spirit descending on him like a dove.” (Mark 1:10)

Therefore, the Pauline Jesus, ie., Holy Spirit, cannot be reconciled with the Gospel Jesus, for It is an impossibility that the Holy Spirit could ever not be (or be without) the Holy Spirit. Contradictory too. But that is the nonsense we were taught in Sunday School and still being taught by orthodoxy. We were erroneously taught that the holy spirit gave up being the holy spirit in order to become a man who then subsequently received the holy spirit. It is nonsense.

And it leads to further confusion by confounding the divine triad to the exclusion of the Most High God. Because by erroneously taking the Gospel stories literal then Jesus becomes separated from the Holy Spirit making two (Jesus + Holy Spirit) out of one member of the Divine Triad. And if Jesus and the other Holy Spirit are two then that leaves only one spot for the Father who is erroneously attributed to YHWH resulting in the Trinity. This the root of the error that excludes “the Most High God” as true God and Father.

Here is how it should be if Paul‘s epistles are correct in equating Jesus with the Holy Spirit and the Gospel stories are esoteric stories about Paul’s inner Jesus, IOW, the Gospel stories are canonizing Paul’s epistles (Dykstra, “Mark: Canonizer of Paul”). Again, the Gospel stories are dramatizing the life and words of the inner Jesus/Holy Spirit passing through the prophets, Paul being the most recent one. Think of the prophets and apostles as avatars for the Holy Spirit. To a Messianic Jew there is no difference between the messenger of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit himself.

What else could this mean?
”it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me” (Gal 2:20)

In this scenario, the Gospel Jesus is esoterically understood as a cypher of Paul turning away from Phariseeism, converting to the Essenes, aka, “The Way”, and baptized by the Qumran community according to their rules established by the Teacher of Righteousness, also, represented by the cypher, John the Baptist; —Paul subsequently receiving the holy spirit before beginning his missionary journeys to the Gentiles (equivalent to Gospel Jesus going to Galilee). IOW, it was Paul without the Holy Spirit before his conversion requiring repentance, and baptism before receiving the Holy Spirit, namely, the inner Jesus. That is how the Gospel stories were meant to be understood. When understood this way, then Paul’s epistles are in complete harmony with the esoteric meaning of the Gospel Stories. Jesus, Joshua, Yeshua, Wisdom = Holy Spirit forever and always. The Holy Spirit never stopped being the Holy Spirit indwelling the saints. Consequently the Divine Triad as espoused by the Essenes comes into view because Jesus only represents one member of the Divine Triad, not two. YHWH represents another who forms the flesh of humans (“God of this world”), and the Most High God as the Supreme God.

1) The God Most High, Father, true God, “heavenly Father”
2) Ruach Elohim (Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua), Wisdom, Divine Mind, Holy Spirit, Light, Prince of Truth
3) YHwH Elohim, Son of God, Body of Christ, Power of God, Adversary, Accuser, Wrath of God, Life/death,

C’mon, I know you guys have always wondered why it never made sense. Now it does.
 
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When you think of Gospel Jesus beginning his ministry AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit, then understand Paul is being described AFTER his conversion and anointing by the Holy Spirit (Inner Jesus).

How so?

Jesus’ Galilee in the Gospels = Paul’s Gentile nations in the epistles

When you read about Jesus in “Galilee” (**), think about Paul’s missionary journeys to Greek/Roman lands.
1). Galilee was the venue for most of Jesus’ ministry. (Greek/Roman lands was the venue for Paul’s missionary journeys.)
2) Jesus grew up in Galilee. (Paul grew up in Asia Minor).
3) Galilee, where Jesus first called his disciples, (Greek lands where Paul called his disciples).
4) Much of Jesus’ public ministry occurred in Galilee, including nineteen of Jesus’ thirty-two parables, and twenty-five of Jesus’ thirty-three miracles. (Most of Paul’s “power” demonstrated in Greek lands.)
5) “Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom, and healing disease and sickness among the people …Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis, Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.”(Matthew 4:23) (Paul went through Gentile lands proclaiming Good News…)
6) Galilee is referenced in the Book of Acts as an identifying factor of His disciples and many early followers. (Acts 13:30). (Paul is identified by his Greek disciples.)
7) Galilee was the most pagan of the Jewish provinces. (Greek lands were most pagan.)
8) Galilee was a rich land and a cultured people. (Greek/Roman lands were rich in culture.)
9) Jesus began His ministry in the Galilean city of Capernaum. (Paul began in Antioch).
10) “the people living in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.” (Matt 4:16). (Paul was and still is “the light to the nations.”)
11). Finally, when Jesus returned to Jerusalem (after preaching in Galilee) to be rejected and condemned by the Jews, think of Paul returning to Jerusalem (after preaching in Gentile lands) to be rejected and condemned by the Jewish leadership (Pharisees). Consequently, when the Jewish nation’s leadership rejected Paul, they rejected one of the three Messiahs of the “Last Days”, according to the Essenes, —the one who would be “a light to the nations”, a priest according to Melchizedek.

It is obvious, the first century Gospel Jesus is Paul! And I have not even demonstrated the words of the Gospel Jesus coming right out of Paul’s epistles yet. Of which there are many.

Paul is the avatar for the Holy Spirit, namely, Yeshua, Joshua, —a Messianic prophet in the first century who became a light to the nations. That is what the Gospel stories are telling us if we are paying close attention to details.
——-
**) For example, What is the Significance of Galilee?
 
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The authors of the Gospels had the epistles of Paul, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Scriptures, Greek moral philosophers, and multiple other Jewish sources to compose a narrative attributed to the personified Spirit of Christ in the first century. Therefore, the authors of the Gospels could take any written words of the prophets and apostles and attribute them to Jesus in the Gospels because it is the "one Spirit" speaking in each of them.

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating." (1 Peter 1:10)

Question: Why Paul though and not Peter, or James, or John or any number of people indwelled with the Spirit?

Answer: Because Paul demonstrated the greater Wisdom. He also had become the "light to the Gentiles" as prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 60:3). Therefore, the "one Spirit" speaking in Isaiah, and Teacher of Righteousness, presumably returned in Paul.

"beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the Wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15)**

Here are a few examples of Paul's message of Good News being canonized by the authors of the Gospels. There are more and I would really appreciate it if anyone wants to contribute to this list.

Table 1. What Paul wrote (48-57 CE) subsequently rewritten and attributed to the Gospel Jesus (66-110 CE)
What Paul's INNER JESUS wrote...What is attributed to Gospel Jesus...
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (John 6:63)
so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. (1 these. 2:16)Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. (Matt 23:32)
wrath has come upon them at last! (1 these. 2:16)For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. (Luke 21:23)
Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.(Phill. 1:17)"we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:49)
“For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!” (1 cor 9:16)Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out.” (Mark 1:38)
by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles (1 these. 2:16)you hindered those who were entering. (Luke 11:52

** Note: Peter is implying Paul's letters as "scripture". Some scholars deny Peter's authorship for this reason, but whoever wrote it under Peter's name clearly perceived Paul's letters as inspired scripture.
 
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Presuming an esoteric meaning of the Gospel ”John the Baptist” and “Jesus” relating to, correlating with, pointing to the ACTUAL “Teacher of Righteousness” (approx. 67 BC), the “forerunner” establishing baptism and the Lord’s supper (see Dead Sea Scrolls), and the ACTUAL Paul (45-57 CE), “the light to the nations”, —what POSSIBLY could the esoteric birth of Jesus mean using critical thinking skills (as opposed to merely taking mythical stories as historical events)? One of the best explanations is presented by John Parsons (1). I will do my best to summarize below.

According to the esoteric story,
”We are told that [three] Magi came from the East, in search of a King whose star they had seen in the East; and that the star went before them and stood over where the young child was, pointing Jesus out to them as the King of kings.”

According to Parsons, the “three kings” represent Orions belt that point to the star, namely, Sirius, rising in the eastern horizon at the summer solstice. Moreover, Sirius is in conjunction with the annual cycle of the Sun, the “King of Kings.” The appearance of Sirius on the eastern horizon marked the longest day of the year and was important for predicting summer rains, Nile floods, the approach of winter, growth, life, etc. Apparently, Sirius appeared exactly on schedule every 365.25 days marking a solar year.

What does this have to do with the “Teacher of Righteousness” and Paul?

Just as Orion’s belt (“three kings”) mark the star rising in the east, namely, Sirius which heralds the Sun’s declining light on the earth (beginning at summer solstice) before its increasing light on earth (winter solstice on Dec. 25th, the alleged birth of Jesus), so does the Teacher of Righteousness’ light decrease in order that his successor‘s light may increase: ”“He must increase but I must decrease” (John iii. 30).

IOW, the astronomical signs in the heavens, ie., the heliacal rising of Sirius, represent (not causal) earthly events, according to the Jewish-Christian authors of the esoteric Gospel stories. “As it is in heaven, so shall it be on earth.” And the alleged birth of Jesus on Winter Solstice ACTUALLY represents the birth and life of the “light to the nations”, namely, Paul, who was foretold by the Teacher of Righteousness (See Dead Sea Scrolls) and Isaiah.

1) (Our Sun-God or Christianity before Christ, a demonstration that, as the fathers admitted, our religion existed before our era, and even in prehistoric times by Jon Parsons)
 
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Some more quotes attributed to Jesus in the Gospels but previously recorded in the Book of Enoch. Keep in mind that the Book of Enoch is not only quoted word for word in the New Testament but multiple copies were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls found at Qumran. IOW, there is nothing original spoken by Jesus in the Gospel esoteric stories simply because the Gospel Jesus (as opposed to the INNER JESUS of Paul's epistles) is the personification of the "one Spirit" who spoke through all the prophets and apostles. That is the point of it all, that is, to canonize Paul's epistles (Dykstra, Mark: Canonizer of Paul) because the Spirit who spoke through the prophets ALSO spoke through Paul.

Table 2. What is recorded in the Book of Enoch (up to 200 BC) subsequently attributed to the Gospel Jesus (66-110 CE)
FIRST recorded in the Book of Enoch...What is LATER attributed to Gospel Jesus...
The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5)
the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22).
those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29)
Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7})."Woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24)
I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28)
Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24)
by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26)
the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36)
In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2)

* Quotes supplied from Nairaland.com, "Book of Enoch/Jesus Quoted", Sept. 16, 2022.
 
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More quotes attributed to Jesus in the Gospels but previously recorded up to a century earlier by Philo of Alexandria. IOW, the authors of the Gospels were accumulating all prior spiritual teachings and attributing them to the personified Spirit manifest in Paul.

What does Philo have to do with Paul?

Both Philo and Paul have a common denominator--the Essenes. Philo praises the Essenes in Palestine but derides the Pharisees. Philo is likely recording the spiritual teachings passed down from the Essenes through the Therapeute in Alexandria. The point being that the "one spirit" in the Essenes may be producing ALL the spiritual material which is later accumulated and attributed to one person, namely Paul because the "Spirit of Jesus" chose to speak through Paul, "Christ's apostle", in the first century C.E.

Table 3. What is recorded by Philo (20 B.C.-39 CE) subsequently attributed to the Gospel Jesus (66-110 CE)
What Philo wrote BEFORE formal Christianity began...What is LATER attributed to Gospel Jesus...
He therefore exhorts every person...to bend his course ...to the divine Word above, who is the fountain of all wisdom, that by drinking of this sacred spring, he, instead of death, may receive the reward of everlasting life. (De Profugis, i. 560, 31.)Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him will never be thirsty again. The water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.” (John 4:10)
“Man lifts his eyes to heaven and beholds the manna, which is a type of the Word, and affords heavenly and immortal nutriment to the intelligent soul.”

“The heavenly food he elsewhere calls manna, the same figuratively as the First of all Beings, the Divine Word.”

“The heavenly food of the soul, called manna, is distributed equally to all who will make a good use of it, by the holy and divine Word.”

“Do you then see what is meant by this nutriment of the soul, manna? Even the never-failing Word.”

“This is the Bread, that nourishment which God appointed to be applied to the soul of Man, the Word.”

(multiple sources: Quis Rer. Divin. Her., i.; De Deler. Potdorie Infix.,; De Leg. Alles.; per "Our Sun-God: or Christianity Before Christ", John Parsons)		Jesus answered them, "Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. (John 6:27-35)

Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger,
The Deity acts with the most consummate order and rectitude, and has appointed His First-born , the upright Word, like the lieutenant of a mighty prince, to take care of his sacred flock. (De Agric, i.)I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. (John 10:11)
The Light of the World

His Beloved Son

(multiple sources: De Somniis, De Leg. Allen.,; per "Our Sun-God: or Christianity Before Christ", John Parsons)		“I am the light of the world. (John 8:12)

For he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” (Matt. 27:43)
 
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American Gothic said:
while I make a distinction between the Son and the Holy Spirit
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Right, Son of God (“Son of the El”) and Spirit of God (“Spirit of the El”) are Life and Light, respectively. They correlate with YHWH and Ruach Elohim, respectively. They are dependent upon one another. Without life there can be no light, and without light there can be no life. In union, they are the Perfect Man, —what we are becoming. Christ in us!

The confusion comes in when people talk about them separately at one time then talk about them in union another time or when they talk about them mythically such as the Tanakh and Gospel stories or talk about them as true cosmic powers such as Paul’s epistles, eg., the divine nature and eternal power of the Most High God manifest in the universe (Romans 1:20). Are they one thing or two things? Are they mythical things or true things? (…Sounds like a Dr. Seuss nursery rhyme, ha ha!) Is Jesus the Son of God or is Jesus the Holy Spirit? Depends upon the time, place, state, and context (mythical or true context) of the thing being described.

At the present time they are mixed powers, sometimes separate (eg senseless matter), sometimes working together (eg., in a pious, virtuous soul) manifesting both imperfect life and imperfect light. IOW, we humans are becoming something and what that something is cannot currently be seen with our eyes. It must be believed in faith.

American Gothic said:
I somewhat view the HS as the spirit of Jesus
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They are the exact same thing known by many names: Wisdom, Prince of Truth, Shepherd, Word of God, Divine Mind, Reason of God, Fullness, Savior, Advocate, Intercessor, Image of God, Physician, Healer, Manna from heaven, High Priest, Living Water, Bread of Life, Sinless One, Lamb of God, second God, Light of the World, Intellectual Sun, etc.
 
docphin5 said:
The authors of the Gospels had the epistles of Paul, the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Hebrew Scriptures, Greek moral philosophers, and multiple other Jewish sources to compose a narrative attributed to the personified Spirit of Christ in the first century. Therefore, the authors of the Gospels could take any written words of the prophets and apostles and attribute them to Jesus in the Gospels because it is the "one Spirit" speaking in each of them.

"Concerning this salvation, the prophets who prophesied about the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired carefully, inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating." (1 Peter 1:10)

Question: Why Paul though and not Peter, or James, or John or any number of people indwelled with the Spirit?

Answer: Because Paul demonstrated the greater Wisdom. He also had become the "light to the Gentiles" as prophesied by Isaiah (Isaiah 60:3). Therefore, the "one Spirit" speaking in Isaiah, and Teacher of Righteousness, presumably returned in Paul.

"beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the Wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15)**

Here are a few examples of Paul's message of Good News being canonized by the authors of the Gospels. There are more and I would really appreciate it if anyone wants to contribute to this list.

Table 1. What Paul wrote (48-57 CE) subsequently rewritten and attributed to the Gospel Jesus (66-110 CE)
What Paul's INNER JESUS wrote...What is attributed to Gospel Jesus...
For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. (Romans 8:6)It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. (John 6:63)
so as always to fill up the measure of their sins. (1 these. 2:16)Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. (Matt 23:32)
wrath has come upon them at last! (1 these. 2:16)For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. (Luke 21:23)
Only that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is proclaimed, and in that I rejoice.(Phill. 1:17)"we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us.” But Jesus said to him, “Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you.” (Luke 9:49)
“For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!” (1 cor 9:16)Let us go on to the next towns, that I may preach there also, for that is why I came out.” (Mark 1:38)
by hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles (1 these. 2:16)you hindered those who were entering. (Luke 11:52

** Note: Peter is implying Paul's letters as "scripture". Some scholars deny Peter's authorship for this reason, but whoever wrote it under Peter's name clearly perceived Paul's letters as inspired scripture.
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I will add them as I run across them. We need a big effort to capture all of them in one list. Any takers?

Table 1. (Continued): What Paul wrote (48-57 CE) subsequently rewritten and attributed to the Gospel Jesus (66-110 CE)
What Paul's INNER JESUS wrote...What is attributed to Gospel Jesus...
for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. (Eph 5:8)While you have the light, believe in the light, that you may become sons of light.” (John 12:36)
I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.” (1 cor 1:14)“although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples” (John 4:2)
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” (Gal 5:14)You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:31)
But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). (Romans 10:6)And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” (John 3:13)
Paul, an apostle—through [spirit of] Jesus Christ and God the Father” (Gal 1:1)What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.” (John 12:49)
 
Paul equates the Spirit of Christ (Jesus) with the Spirit of God, with Christ in you, and the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead.
Paul states there is only one Spirit. Eph 4:4

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, then the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
 
Caroljeen said:
Paul equates the Spirit of Christ (Jesus) with the Spirit of God, with Christ in you, and the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead.
Paul states there is only one Spirit. Eph 4:4

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh; you are in the Spirit, since the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10 But if Christ is in you, then the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit that dwells in you.
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Right, now apply this doctrine of ONE inner “spirit of Jesus” to explain the Gospel stories. How could the one inner spirit described by Paul allegedly BE the one solitary Gospel Jesus, yet also BE indwelling the saints at the same time? He could not. It makes no sense.

Therefore what is another possible explanation?

Answer: the Gospel Jesus is a personification of the inner one “spirit of Jesus” ACTUALLY IN Paul in the first century. Whoever wrote the Gospel stories perceived Paul so closely aligned to the “spirit of Jesus” that no distinction could be made between them. To wit, Paul was equivalent to the Gospel Jesus. Again, Paul is the anchor for the first century manifestation of Jesus on earth!

Facts
1) Gospel stories were written AFTER Paul’s epistles up to 70 years later. Again, after Paul’s epistles. Therefore, Materials from Paul’s epistles were possibly used to compose the Gospel stories, eg., “crucified Christ”: “I [Paul] have been crucified” (Gal 2:20)
2) Essenes (up to 200 BC) were expecting three anointed Messiahs in the Last Days, that is, three (3) humans anointed by the Holy Spirit (aka, one “spirit of Jesus”). Therefore,
A) The first was possibly the Teacher of Righteousness (aka, John the Baptist) around 100 BC per Dead Sea Scrolls​
B) The second, was POSSIBLY Paul considered by the authors of the Gospels to be the second Messiah figure as the fulfillment for a “light to the nations” per Isaiah’s prophecy. Again, Paul was possibly, likely, perceived as candidate for “spirit of Jesus“ in the first century.​
C) The third manifestation of the Holy Spirit would be final appearance of the Holy Spirit—anointed human being, a final prophet, before the final judgment. The final appearance of Jesus is what christianity is waiting for because the alleged “new heaven and earth” follows it, except Christianity thinks his appearance will be supernatural based on their literal interpretation of the Gospels. Whereas, if the OP is correct then the Christ’s return will be another humble appearance (in another human) like the last two appearances. Something to think about.​
3) Gnostic tenets were held by the Essenes up to 200 BC and Essenes were the first Jewish-Christians who called themselves “the Way.” Christian orthodoxy began three hundred years later and their main distinction from gnostic christians was that they literalized the Gospel stories whereas, gnostic christians interpreted them esoterically, which would have been expected had they been written to personify the “spirit of Jesus” indwelling, manifested through the apostle Paul.

The explanation above demonstrates the natural development of the Gospel stories from actual teachings and historical events of the Essenes presuming Paul a true prophet/apostle/messenger/anointed-Messiah for their Jewish-Christian theology. IOW, it makes sense!
 
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docphin5 said:
Right, now apply this doctrine of ONE inner “spirit of Jesus” to explain the Gospel stories. How could the one inner spirit described by Paul allegedly BE the one solitary Gospel Jesus, yet also BE indwelling the saints at the same time? He could not. It makes no sense.
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He could if he were God.
The one Spirit of God is the same Spirit as the Spirit of Jesus. God is a Spirit who fills all heaven and earth, the universe cannot contain him. In Him (the Spirit of God) we live and move and have our being. There is nowhere we can go to hide ourselves from his view.
It makes sense and testifies to the glory of God.
docphin5 said:
Therefore what is another possible explanation?
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Maybe later, first things first.
 
Caroljeen said:
He could if he were God.
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Can God make a square circle? If not, then there are some things God cannot do not because he lacks power but that he is logical. He does not contradict himself. Therefore, before you can understand what is true, what God is, one must accept what cannot be true, what God is NOT. Until then the human mind is susceptible to all kinds of myths and superstitions. Always believing, never knowing.
Caroljeen said:
The one Spirit of God is the same Spirit as the Spirit of Jesus. God is a Spirit who fills all heaven and earth, the universe cannot contain him. In Him (the Spirit of God) we live and move and have our being. There is nowhere we can go to hide ourselves from his view.
It makes sense and testifies to the glory of God.

Maybe later, first things first.
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The “first thing” is to know what is true in front of you, then the hidden things will come into view. (Gospel of Thomas). It could be an advertisement to use logic or higher reason (versus senses alone, sensuality, supernatural) to perceive God. The senses collect data, the higher reason organizes it to perceive the intelligible or spiritual world, —to perceive what is eternally true.
 
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The Mandeans are the ONLY gnostic sect today surviving uninterrupted from the first century C.E. They survived by essentially isolating themselves in Parthia where Roman and Byzantine Christianity could not persecute them.

What can we learn from them?

We can learn from them the state of Jerusalem religious-politics that existed at the time of the apostle Paul, as they emigrated from Palestine before 70CE, and never returned.

Interesting facts regarding the Mandeans:
They still follow “John the Baptist“.
They rejected Jesus as a prophet.
They hold a dualistic theology just as the Essenes did.
They still baptize their members as John the Baptist did.

What does this have to do with Paul, Jesus, and the OP?

In their literature surviving today they associate Paul with Jesus. They claim it was wrong for their community to baptize Jesus who is associated with Paul.

Why should that seem fantastic given that Paul himself claimed to be the living Jesus?
a) “It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.” (Gal 2:20)
b) “[you] received me as Christ Jesus.” (Gal 4:14)

Therefore, it is possible that they reject Paul who claimed to have the inner living Jesus. Simply, Paul and Jesus were the same person in the time stamped on the minds of the Mandeans. Keep in mind this is BEFORE any Gospel stories were written, before Acts of the Apostles was written, before Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE. The Mandeans emigrated from Jerusalem during the life of Paul and remained isolated from christianity thereafter. They only knew Paul claiming to be the living Jesus, who they rejected.

The point is to demonstrate an independent source of information regarding the origins of Christianity during the life of Paul BEFORE everyone else got involved writing esoteric Gospel stories and the ensuing battle between orthodoxy and gnostic Christians fighting over whether they were historical events or not, which occurred in the second century CE, long after the Mandeans went into seclusion. Therefore, the Mandeans should be considered an unpolluted, independent source to the beginning of our common era, the beginning of Paul, the apostle/messenger/vessel for the “spirit of Jesus.”

As a side topic, the Mandean‘s point of view probably represents that of Peter, James, and John, “the so-called apostles”, per Paul, who opposed Paul for abrogating Jewish rituals like circumcision, and Sabbath observance. It would correlate with the internal divisions of the Jewish-Christian community during Paul’s ministry. Do Gentiles have to Judaize in order to be saved or don’t they? We know the answer to that question but it was unresolved in the time of the apostle Paul/“spirit of Jesus”. But that is another OP.
 
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docphin5 said:
<snip>
And it leads to further confusion by confounding the divine triad to the exclusion of the Most High God. Because by erroneously taking the Gospel stories literal then Jesus becomes separated from the Holy Spirit making two (Jesus + Holy Spirit) out of one member of the Divine Triad. And if Jesus and the other Holy Spirit are two then that leaves only one spot for the Father who is erroneously attributed to YHWH resulting in the Trinity. This the root of the error that excludes “the Most High God” as true God and Father. <snip>
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Margaret Barker said that when orthodoxy lost sight of the older distinction between Yahweh [as the Son] and Elyon [as the heavenly Father] enormous problems were created for its doctrine of the Trinity. (Barker, The Great Angel, pg 219).


For example, how could Jesus be identified with YHWH as “Lord” (Greek: kyrios) in the New Testament and Jesus deny being the Father, yet orthodoxy’s version of the Trinity replaced Elyon (heavenly Father) with YHWH? Simply, orthodoxys Trinity contradicts the New Testament. Barker goes on to say that Various expedients were then put forth to explain how “the Lord” could have been used both of Jesus and YHWH although Jesus denied he was the Father. None of which was necessary if orthodoxy had not lost sight of the fact that YHWH in the old testament is second to the Most High God, “true God”and “heavenly Father”. Per Barker, “The New Testament identified Jesus with YHWH, the second God, but not with Elyon, the Father.” (Ibid)

My friends, we lost our way, —“The Way” of the Essenes, 1,800 years ago when we lost sight of the “true God” and heavenly Father, the Elyon. Upon that one error so many other errors have been layered on until it becomes a confused mess. Fix that first error and many of the other errors fall away. I believe this is our time, an auspicious time, to fix that first error and return to him.
 
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American Gothic said:
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in view the U-tube, there are many mistake, but the one that stood out was, "no verse describe God as a absolute unity.

we disagree, and here's why.

Isaiah 41:4 "Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God."

Isaiah 48:12 "Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last."

can't get any absolute in unity that that.

101G.
 
1 Peter 1:10 "Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:"
1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify. yes Jesus is God almighty "SHSRED" in Flesh.

:ninja:
 
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