💡 The Providence of God...

ReverendRV

Well-known member
My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their termination.

(4.) The destined concession of its concurrence, which, on account of the dependence of a second on the first cause, is a necessary concurrence.


I'm not an Arminian, but I really like his teachings on the Providence of God. God is the Agent of all which comes to pass. This means he Determines all of history, and has Good Meaning in everything...
 
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My sentiments respecting the providence of God are these: It is present with, and presides over, all things; and all things, according to their essences, quantities, qualities, relations, actions, passions, places, times, stations and habits, are subject to its governance, conservation, and direction. I except neither particular, sublunary, vile, nor contingent things, not even the free wills of men or of angels, either good or evil: And, what is still more, I do not take away from the government of the divine providence even sins themselves, whether we take into our consideration their commencement, their progress, or their termination.

(4.) The destined concession of its concurrence, which, on account of the dependence of a second on the first cause, is a necessary concurrence.


I'm not an Arminian, but I really like his teachings on the Providence of God. God is the Agent of all which comes to pass. This means he Determines all of history, and has Good Meaning in everything...

"The Fourth act is the defining of its magnitude, by which limits are placed on sin, that it may not increase and assume greater strength."

This is the effect of prevenient grace; the mitigation of sin's ability to overtake us!

Doug
 
I have a hard time with all the "fluff" and "flowery speech" found in such statements. You can sum up his statement with.

"God's Providence means that there is nothing that has, does or will exist apart from God's governing."
Yeah, he went out of his way to include everything God is in charge of Commencing, leaving no exceptions...
 
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That is where we disagree. The Governance of God's creation is solely in God's hands. There is no problem with believing that God has allowed man to determine "his" own outcome "within" His Governing limits.

The Doctrine of "Providence" does not require a "Hard Determinism" view.
I just made the statement to provoke conversation. TomL and Doug say a little Determinism needs to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. That's their belief, conveyed in my words. You know how I simplify things; the way you did in the third Post. As a Compatibalist, I believe in Hard and Soft Determinism...
 
providence
This is the shortest article I could find.

Providence

by J. I. Packer

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD" (Pro. 16:33).

"God's works of providence are his most holy, wise, and powerful preserving and governing all his creatures, and all their actions" (Westminster Shorter Catechism Q.11). If Creation was a unique exercise of divine energy causing the world to be, providence is a continued exercise of that same energy whereby the Creator, according to his own will, (a) keeps all creatures in being, (b) involves himself in all events, and (c) directs all things to their appointed end. The model is of purposive personal management with total "hands-on" control: God is completely in charge of his world. His hand may be hidden, but his rule is absolute.

Some have restricted God's providence to foreknowledge without control, or upholding without intervention, or general oversight without concern for details, but the testimony to providence as formulated above is overwhelming.

The Bible clearly teaches God's providential control (1) over the universe at large, Ps. 103:19; Dan. 4:35; Eph. 1:11; (2) over the physical world, Job 37; Pss. 104:14; 135:6; Matt. 5:45; (3) over the brute creation, Ps. 104:21, 28; Matt. 6:26; 10:29; (4) over the affairs of nations, Job 12:23; Pss. 22:28; 66:7; Acts 17:26; (5) over man's birth and lot in life, 1 Sam. 16:1; Ps. 139:16; Isa. 45:5; Gal. 1:15-16; (6) over the outward successes and failures of men's lives, Ps. 75:6, 7; Luke 1:52; (7) over things seemingly accidental or insignificant, Prov. 16:33; Matt. 10:30; (8) in the protection of the righteous, Pss. 4:8; 5:12; 63:8; 121:3; Rom. 8:28; (9) in supplying the wants of God's people, Gen. 22:8, 14; Deut. 8:3; Phil. 4:19; (10) in giving answers to prayer, 1 Sam. 1:19; Isa. 20:5, 6; 2 Chron. 33:13; Ps. 65:2; Matt. 7:7; Luke 18:7, 8; and (11) in the exposure and punishment of the wicked, Pss. 7:12-13; 11:6. (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology, 4th ed.)

Clear thinking about God's involvement in the world-process and in the acts of rational creatures requires complementary sets of statements, thus: a person takes action, or an event is triggered by natural causes, or Satan shows his hand - yet God overrules. This is the message of the book of Esther, where God's name nowhere appears. Again: things that are done contravene God's will of command - yet they fulfill his will of events (Eph. 1:11). Again: humans mean what they do for evil - yet God who overrules uses their actions for good (Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23). Again: humans, under God's overruling, sin - yet God is not the author of sin (James 1:13-17); rather, he is its judge.

The nature of God's "concurrent" or "confluent" involvement in all that occurs in his world, as - without violating the nature of things, the ongoing causal processes, or human free agency - he makes his will of events come to pass, is mystery to us, but the consistent biblical teaching about God's involvement is as stated above.

Of the evils that infect God's world (moral and spiritual perversity, waste of good, and the physical disorders and disruptions of a spoiled cosmos), it can summarily be said: God permits evil (Acts 14:16); he punishes evil with evil (Ps. 81:11-12; Rom. 1:26-32); he brings good out of evil (Gen. 50:20; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28; 13:27; 1 Cor. 2:7-8); he uses evil to test and discipline those he loves (Matt. 4:1-11; Heb. 12:4-14); and one day he will redeem his people from the power and presence of evil altogether (Rev. 21:27; 22:14-15).

The doctrine of providence teaches Christians that they are never in the grip of blind forces (fortune, chance, luck, fate); all that happens to them is divinely planned, and each event comes as a new summons to trust, obey, and rejoice, knowing that all is for one's spiritual and eternal good (Rom. 8:28).

Quoted from Concise Theology by J. I. Packer
 
praise_yeshua said:
I have a hard time with all the "fluff" and "flowery speech" found in such statements. You can sum up his statement with.

"God's Providence means that there is nothing that has, does or will exist apart from God's governing."

Yeah, I say All Evangelicals believe in the Providence of God to some extent; hard or soft. So why would they deny Soft Determinism?
 
Yeah, I say All Evangelicals believe in the Providence of God to some extent
I just realized that Chalcedon really just attacked J.I. Packer rather than Providence itself.

Here is something from Catholic Answers on Providence. I cut it down to not take up too much space.

Providence is God Himself considered in that act by which in His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized. That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God. The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.

For all religions, whether Christian or pagan, belief in Providence, understood in the wider sense of a superhuman being who governs the universe and directs the course of human affairs with definite purpose and beneficent design, has always been a very real and practical belief. Prayer, divination, blessing and curse, oracle and sacred rite, all testify to a belief in some over-ruling power, divine or quasi-divine in character; and such phenomena are found in every race and tribe, however uncivilized or degraded. We find it, for instance, not only amongst the savages of today, but also among the early Greeks, who, though they do not appear to have clearly distinguished between Providence and Fate, and though their gods were little more than glorified human beings, subject to human frailty and marred by human passion, they none the less watched over the home and the family, took sides in human warfare, and were the protectors and avengers of mankind.
 
I just realized that Chalcedon really just attacked J.I. Packer rather than Providence itself.

Here is something from Catholic Answers on Providence. I cut it down to not take up too much space.

Providence is God Himself considered in that act by which in His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized. That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God. The universe is a system of real beings created by God and directed by Him to this supreme end, the concurrence of God being necessary for all natural operations, whether of things animate or inanimate, and still more so for operations of the supernatural order.

For all religions, whether Christian or pagan, belief in Providence, understood in the wider sense of a superhuman being who governs the universe and directs the course of human affairs with definite purpose and beneficent design, has always been a very real and practical belief. Prayer, divination, blessing and curse, oracle and sacred rite, all testify to a belief in some over-ruling power, divine or quasi-divine in character; and such phenomena are found in every race and tribe, however uncivilized or degraded. We find it, for instance, not only amongst the savages of today, but also among the early Greeks, who, though they do not appear to have clearly distinguished between Providence and Fate, and though their gods were little more than glorified human beings, subject to human frailty and marred by human passion, they none the less watched over the home and the family, took sides in human warfare, and were the protectors and avengers of mankind.
Years ago when we used to debate about the Decree of God, I realized the Providence of God is "God's Decree in Action"; and that everyone believes in the Providence of God...

I use the method of 'Shared Beliefs' against people who have some wrong beliefs, and Providence is a example of a shared truth. If you notice, this is an older Thread which is still on it's front page; people really don't want to have to talk about Providence because it is a 'foot in the door' to show them God is behind All which comes to Pass...
 
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"The Fourth act is the defining of its magnitude, by which limits are placed on sin, that it may not increase and assume greater strength."

This is the effect of prevenient grace; the mitigation of sin's ability to overtake us!

Doug
If only that's what the Bible said, Arminianism could have been true!
 
I just made the statement to provoke conversation. TomL and Doug say a little Determinism needs to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. That's their belief, conveyed in my words. You know how I simplify things; the way you did in the third Post. As a Compatibalist, I believe in Hard and Soft Determinism...
I find it simpler to say, I just don't know. The breadth of hard determinism is just too deep and wide to wrap the mind around, while soft determinism is a cop out to the reaction of just how deep and wide hard determinism is.
 
I just made the statement to provoke conversation. TomL and Doug say a little Determinism needs to be rounded up to Hard Determinism. That's their belief, conveyed in my words. You know how I simplify things; the way you did in the third Post. As a Compatibalist, I believe in Hard and Soft Determinism...
The results are the same for both; all things are predetermined. If you believe in Hard determination there is no Soft, If there is Soft, it is the same result as Hard. If “all things, whatsoever comes to pass” is the bottom line, splitting hairs over Hard and Soft is meaningless in the end.

Doug
 
The results are the same for both; all things are predetermined. If you believe in Hard determination there is no Soft, If there is Soft, it is the same result as Hard. If “all things, whatsoever comes to pass” is the bottom line, splitting hairs over Hard and Soft is meaningless in the end.

Doug
Meaningless! Meaningless!! Everything is Meaningless...
 
The results are the same for both; all things are predetermined. If you believe in Hard determination there is no Soft, If there is Soft, it is the same result as Hard. If “all things, whatsoever comes to pass” is the bottom line, splitting hairs over Hard and Soft is meaningless in the end.
I would say that hard determinism sounds like fatalism. More like a mechanical necessity. Like you see in Astrology or something.

I would say that God determines all that comes to pass, but being an infinite, omniscient God, can cause those things to come to pass through the "free will" decisions of people.
Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
 
I would say that hard determinism sounds like fatalism. More like a mechanical necessity. Like you see in Astrology or something.

I would say that God determines all that comes to pass, but being an infinite, omniscient God, can cause those things to come to pass through the "free will" decisions of people.
Although, in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first Cause, all things come to pass immutably, and infallibly; yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out, according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
The bottom line is, that in both expressions, it is God's determination that effects the final reality. Man's actions are effectually and irresistibly established, and that before he even exists.

Doug
 
The bottom line is, that in both expressions, it is God's determination that effects the final reality. Man's actions are effectually and irresistibly established, and that before he even exists.
Yes. I was thinking of this the other day. Even with the foreknowledge view - that God simply looks into the future and chooses those He sees will believe, He is still looking into the future before you existed. His foreknowledge is infallible. If God sees that Joe will never believe, then in time, when Joe is born, nothing can happen to cause him to believe. If God foresees that Joe will live to be 80 years old, then no amount of bullets, bombs or disease can cause him to die before that age.
 
The bottom line is, that in both expressions, it is God's determination that effects the final reality. Man's actions are effectually and irresistibly established, and that before he even exists.

Doug
And that's the only way it could possibly be...
 
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