Reformedguy
Well-known member
If you confess and believe in your heart. In this particular text which comes first?
So now there is no order?
1 John 5:1 Naively Wrenched.
- Thread starter Jabez
- Start date
So now there is no order?
Order in a sentence does not determine sequential reality unless specified
The conjunction and simply notes additional items without specifying any particular order
Logically however you cannot truly confess what you do not believe
TibiasDad
Well-known member
That is a predetermined character trait that is chosen before the foundation of the world. It does not say that we are elected to salvation; the grammar does not express that at all.
And I would submit that the Father has given to Jesus all who will believe. And all who will believe will come, for believing is synonymous with coming or a least concurrent with coming.
Doug
Reformedguy
Well-known member
To be holy and blameless is not about salvation? I woukd have to respectfully disagree.
Doug, the text in question mentions nothing of belief. Your importing that from elsewhere.
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Obviously you didn't as you claimed the reverse order
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Sure did. To prove a point.
The only point you proved is you need help interpreting that passage
Reformedguy
Well-known member
What I did prove is proof texting is not the proper way to handle the word of God. Mission accomplished. Thatnks for the help
TibiasDad
Well-known member
I didn't say that holy and blameless is not related to salvation, what I am saying is that Paul's words do not say anything about the election of people to salvation specifically; if it had it would say something like "For he chose us to be in him before the creation of the world." But he doesn't say that, he says that we, the church, we're chosen to be holy and blameless (by being) in him.
Be careful, ReformedGuy, you're getting close to proof-texting! ? My observation is based on a more holistic approach to interpretation, in other words, I am using one verse to give insight into the meaning of another. Jesus is making a factual statement about the group of people who would, in the end, be raised up on the last day. It makes no statement concerning how God gives them to Jesus, he just say "all that the Father gives me" will come and Jesus will raise them up on the last day. I would caution you that there is nothing about the predestinating decree of God either, so I find you to be importing that idea from elsewhere. Just sayin', my brother!
Doug
Sorry once again you provided an erroneous interpretation here and the fact is you do proof text and you do so apart from the overall biblical context. You need look no further than your handling of Ezekiel 36 and Deut 30
Reformedguy
Well-known member
In Ephsians 1:4 it says specifically chosen to be holy and blameless. If that refers to salvation how much more specific can Paul get?
So you would say He chose the church as a whole but not those who would make up the church?
Would you say Doug that those given to the Son by the Father are the same people He came to save in Matthew 1:23?
So you would say their is no decree that Christ would save His church? How would define decree?
Chose believers - the faithful in Christ to be holy and blameless
Not chose unconditionally selected men to be believers
Chose believers
you know those he was pleased to save
1 Corinthians 1:21 (KJV)
21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
these he chose to be holy and blameless
there is not a hint of unconditional election to salvation anywhere in the passage
Reformedguy
Well-known member
It does not say choose believers nor does it mention faithfulness. It does mention why they are chosen. To be holy and blameless not because of.
TibiasDad
Well-known member
Sorry, I missed this post until now…
I think you’re reading to much into the statement. Paul’s says that he has chosen us, we who are already saved and those who will be saved, to be holy and blameless is character of our lives, ie, to be Christlike. Paul is referring to sanctification, not salvation specifically. He didn't just choose to save us, he chose to purify us from sin and make us able to not sin.
He chose the nature of the church, and the church is the sum of its members, thus he is choosing the character of each individual that makes up the church.
They are of the same group: The people he came to save was all of mankind, and those of all mankind who believe are those the Father gives him.
I didn't say anything about it, other than there is nothing about it within "those that the Father gives me".
Doug
Reformedguy
Well-known member
No worries Doug. Your posts I need to put a little more thought in when i reply. I love it.
I would simply point out Ephesians 1 it does not say we who are already saved. Or even will be saved for that matter. It says specifically we are chosen in Him from the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless.
Except it says He WILL save His people from their sins. I believe Christ is a perfect saviour and all He intends to save He saves. Those He intends to save are those given to Him by the Father.
Actually it does
as the us spoken of is
Ephesians 1:1 (KJV)
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
Reformedguy
Well-known member
Sure and in verse 4 those same us are those chosen from the foundation of the world TO BE, not because of, holy and blameless. Good job
You should have stopped to think before you posted that
They were chosen to be holy and blameless because of their position in Christ
It is pretty absurd you imagine anyone might be stating they were chosen to holy and blameless because they were holy and blameless