1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 Isn't A Pre-Trib Rapture, Dont Be Deceived

Truth7t7

Active member
The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

Keraz

Member
The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the most twisted and misused prophecy in the Bible.
It certainly does not say there will be a rapture to heaven. It prophesies a transportation to where Jesus will be when He Returns. Similar to what happened to Philip, Acts 8:39
It does say there will be a resurrection of some of the dead. We know exactly who that will be, from Revelation 20:4. ONLY those martyrs killed during the Great Trib. NO ONE else, as verse 5 plainly says.

The Last Day is the final Judgment, where God will sit on the Great White Throne and Judge everyone who has ever lived, Revelation 20:11-15
Which, as we a re plainly told; will happen after the Millennium reign of King Jesus.

Simple, clear and easy to understand. Why believe such nonsense as AMillenniumism? In no way are we in the Millennium now.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is the most twisted and misused prophecy in the Bible.
It certainly does not say there will be a rapture to heaven. It prophesies a transportation to where Jesus will be when He Returns. Similar to what happened to Philip, Acts 8:39
It does say there will be a resurrection of some of the dead. We know exactly who that will be, from Revelation 20:4. ONLY those martyrs killed during the Great Trib. NO ONE else, as verse 5 plainly says.

The Last Day is the final Judgment, where God will sit on the Great White Throne and Judge everyone who has ever lived, Revelation 20:11-15
Which, as we a re plainly told; will happen after the Millennium reign of King Jesus.

Simple, clear and easy to understand. Why believe such nonsense as AMillenniumism? In no way are we in the Millennium now.
Your claim in multiple resurrections of the believer, tribulation saints, then those after a supposed millennium is false

There is one future resurrection of all, and this takes place at the second coming, at the last day resurrection, (Then Cometh The End) not a Millennial kingdom on this earth

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

(Then Cometh The End) As (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
Simple, clear and easy to understand. Why believe such nonsense as AMillenniumism? In no way are we in the Millennium now.
The Non-Literal thousand years is taking place presently in the Lords spiritual, and will cease at the second coming

If a person died one day before the second coming, they would enter the Non-Literal thousand years

Satan is currently bound from one specific purpose, (Deceive The Nations To Battle) in gathering the worlds nations together to the final battle

Revelation 16:12-15 & Revelation 20:7-9 are parallel teachings of the same event in gathering the nations in deception, false miracles in devils go forth to earth's kings, same battle seen

Jesus returns to this battle in the second coming, in fire and Final judgement, the heavens and earth are dissolved, judgement complete, eternity begins in the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem
 

Keraz

Member
The Non-Literal thousand years is taking place presently in the Lords spiritual, and will cease at the second coming
Well, I agreed with you that 2 Thess 4:17 is not a 'rapture to heaven'.
But your unsupported statement above, I totally reject.

There will be no worldwide devastation when Jesus Returns. Why should there be? He comes to rule the earth, as stated in the Bible quite clearly; He will rule and reign for 1000 years. Revelation 1:5 And what we pray for in the Lords Prayer.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
The main scripture used by supporters of the (Pre-Trib Rapture) is 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, this is nothing more than the (Second Coming) (Last Day) resurrection, not a (Pre-Trib Rapture), don't be deceived
The main.
NOT the only one.
1 Thessalonians 5:9

1Th 5:9 WEB For God didn’t appoint us to wrath, but to the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

Genesis 18:16-33
God talked with Abraham about the coming judgment on sodom and gomorrah.

There are more.

The question becomes--- what do you think the tribulation period is, and is about?
Who is the tribulation period about?

And all of these are great scriptures. Nobody is saying anything about them.


1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Answer the who/what questions and we can move forward.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
There will be no worldwide devastation when Jesus Returns.
Is That Fables Or Fiction, Take Your Pick

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation

This Existing Heaven And Earth Will Be (Replaced) By The New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem, A New Creation, At The Return Of Jesus Christ

(Behold, I Make All Things New)

2 Peter 3:10-13KJV

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Revelation 21:1-5KJV

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Matthew 24:29-30KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

1 Corinthians 3:13KJV
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9KJV

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance
on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Malachi 3:2KJV
2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:

Psalm 46:6KJV
6 The heathen raged, the kingdoms were moved: he uttered his voice, the earth melted.

Psalm 50:3KJV

3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalm 97:5KJV
5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the Lord, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Isaiah 66:15KJV
15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

Zechariah 14:12KJV

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

Nahum 1:5-6KJV

5 The mountains quake at him, and the hills melt, and the earth is burned at his presence, yea, the world, and all that dwell therein.
6 Who can stand before his indignation? and who can abide in the fierceness of his anger? his fury is poured out like fire, and the rocks are thrown down by him.

Revelation 20:9KJV
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
The question becomes--- what do you think the tribulation period is, and is about?
Who is the tribulation period about?
Who: Gods Messengers In Plagues By The (Two Witnesses)

What: About Judgment Of The Wicked

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 
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SteveB

Well-known member
Who: Gods Messengers In Plagues By The (Two Witnesses)
The tribulation period is about the two witnesses?
Ok. I'd never heard that one before.



What: About Judgment Of The Wicked
Good. We agree with this.

Which now brings us to the question of why would the saints in Christ would remain on earth during a period of time when God is judging the wicked?




There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)
Yep. According to Romans 9-11, and numerous old testament prophets, God would restore Israel to their prior position with God.

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected
And how/where will the church be protected?
From what I read of the church of Philadelphia, they'll be removed from the judgment coming on the earth.

Rev 3:10 WEB Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees
What passages support this idea?

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
As it is written in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5. Furthermore, according to Romans 8:9, the Holy Spirit inhabits those who are following Jesus.



It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
Indeed. I'm not seeing where the sealed church is part of the world here.

I do however read in 2 Thessalonians 2

2Th 2:1-17 WEB 1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 5 Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? 6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming; 9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; 12 that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which he called you through our Good News, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word or by letter. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good work and word.

Seems that the man of sin won't be revealed until he who restrains is withdrawn.

Who is he who restrains?
I've been taught that he who restrains is the Holy Spirit of God.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
The tribulation period is about the two witnesses?
Ok. I'd never heard that one before.




Good. We agree with this.

Which now brings us to the question of why would the saints in Christ would remain on earth during a period of time when God is judging the wicked?





Yep. According to Romans 9-11, and numerous old testament prophets, God would restore Israel to their prior position with God.


And how/where will the church be protected?
From what I read of the church of Philadelphia, they'll be removed from the judgment coming on the earth.

Rev 3:10 WEB Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


What passages support this idea?


As it is written in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5. Furthermore, according to Romans 8:9, the Holy Spirit inhabits those who are following Jesus.




Indeed. I'm not seeing where the sealed church is part of the world here.

I do however read in 2 Thessalonians 2

2Th 2:1-17 WEB 1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 5 Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? 6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming; 9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; 12 that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which he called you through our Good News, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word or by letter. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good work and word.

Seems that the man of sin won't be revealed until he who restrains is withdrawn.

Who is he who restrains?
I've been taught that he who restrains is the Holy Spirit of God.
Thanks for the response Steve

Steve I'm fully aware of just about every position concerning a pre-trib rapture and every argument that could be presented at least 1,000 times over in the past 40+ years, I followed the teaching for 20+ years myself

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
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Keraz

Member
Is That Fables Or Fiction, Take Your Pick

There Will Be No 1,000 Year Millennial Kingdom Upon This Earth, Jesus Christ Returns In Fire And Final Judgement, Dissolving This Existing Earth By Fire, Immediately After The Tribulation
We just read Zechariah 14:3, Matthew 24:29-30 and Revelation 19:11-21, 20:1-10, to know how wrong you are.
You changed from being a pre-trib rapture believer. Great, well done, now read and understand the plainly stated scriptures that prove there will be a Millennium reign of King Jesus after He Returns.
The AMill belief is pure rubbish, if the current world situation is the peaceful and prosperous period as described for the reign of Jesus, then something has gone horribly wrong! It is obvious to any thinking person that soon the Lord will commence all the end time events. After they are all fulfilled, Jesus will Return and we Christians will rule with Him for the next 1000 years.
Look forward to it, instead of your doom scenario!
 

Truth7t7

Active member
now read and understand the plainly stated scriptures that prove there will be a Millennium reign of King Jesus after He Returns.
As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Thanks for the response Steve

Steve I'm fully aware of just about every position concerning a pre-trib rapture and every argument that could be presented at least 1,000 times over in the past 40+ years, I followed the teaching for 20+ years myself

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth;
they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
At this point I'm waiting for you to actually answer my questions.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
At this point I'm waiting for you to actually answer my questions.
I have answered your question to the best of my ability,

(If You Have A Direct Question Ask It)

if you dont desire to respond to my questions it's ok

It's a two way street in conversation, you asked I answered, I asked a simple question and you didnt answer
 
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Keraz

Member
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
How can Jesus 'deliver up the Kingdom', if He hasn't actually reigned yet?
There IS a gap of 1000 years between verses 23 nd 24. Proved by the many prophesies about the Millennium reign of Jesus, who Returns as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Only at the end of the Millennium does He finally destroy everyone who opposes Him. Revelation 20:7-10
 

Truth7t7

Active member
There IS a gap of 1000 years between verses 23 nd 24.
Your claim of a 1,000 year gap between verses 23 & 24 is as valid as Mickey Mouse lives on the moon

Claiming there is 1,000 year gap between verses 23-24 Below is adding to scripture, "Dangerous"

Your desire for a future Millennial Kingdom on this earth is so strong, you will "Add To Scripture" something not seen, to obtain your desire, "Dangerous
"

As scripture clearly teaches below in 1 Corinthinas 15:23-24 , when Jesus Christ returns then comes (The End)

Many disregard (Then Cometh The End) as they desire to see a mortal Millennial Kingdom on earth, after the coming of Jesus Christ

afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, not a Millennial Kingdom on this earth as many falsely claim

(Then Cometh The End)

(Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)

1 Corinthians 15:21-26 & 51-54KJV
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end,
when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
At this point I'm waiting for you to actually answer my questions.
Steve you interject your opinion and ask questions of others,then when its your turn to answer the questions as seen below, you run off without response

I observed your activity with 10 posts over the past five hours, as you run from the questions below why?

Because you cant defend a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, found no place in scripture,asyou run from response

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Steve you interject your opinion and ask questions of others,then when its your turn to answer the questions as seen below, you run off without response

I observed your activity with 10 posts over the past five hours, as you run from the questions below why?

Because you cant defend a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, found no place in scripture,asyou run from response

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
You failed to answer my questions so I ignore your questions.

If you don't like it, then you should go back, actually read what I previously wrote, and focus on answering my questions.

Each one was asked using a question mark.
 

Truth7t7

Active member
You failed to answer my questions so I ignore your questions.

If you don't like it, then you should go back, actually read what I previously wrote, and focus on answering my questions.

Each one was asked using a question mark.
Steve you run and hide from response Because you cant defend a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, found no place in scripture, it's that simple :)

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 

SteveB

Well-known member
Steve you run and hide from response Because you cant defend a pre-trib rapture of the Church to heaven, found no place in scripture, it's that simple :)

Steve could you answer the 3 questions below, as posted in the Original OP, is your answer (Yes) to all 3 questions?

1. Is a resurrection of the believer seen in 1 Thess 4:15-17 below, 100% yes!

2. Does this resurrection take place on the (Last Day) as Jesus Christ taught below in John 6:39-40, 100% yes!

3. Is the (Last Day) the time of final judgement as Jesus Christ taught in John 12:48 below, 100% yes!

Many deny the truth of Gods words below, that are simple, clear, and very easy to understand.

(THE SECOND COMING, LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17KJV
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(THE LAST DAY RESURRECTION)

John 5:28-29KJV
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth
; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

(THE LAST DAY JUDGEMENT)

John 12:48KJV
48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.


The tribulation period is about the two witnesses?
Ok. I'd never heard that one before.




Good. We agree with this.

Which now brings us to the question of why would the saints in Christ would remain on earth during a period of time when God is judging the wicked?





Yep. According to Romans 9-11, and numerous old testament prophets, God would restore Israel to their prior position with God.


And how/where will the church be protected?
From what I read of the church of Philadelphia, they'll be removed from the judgment coming on the earth.

Rev 3:10 WEB Because you kept my command to endure, I also will keep you from the hour of testing which is to come on the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


What passages support this idea?


As it is written in 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 5:5. Furthermore, according to Romans 8:9, the Holy Spirit inhabits those who are following Jesus.




Indeed. I'm not seeing where the sealed church is part of the world here.

I do however read in 2 Thessalonians 2

2Th 2:1-17 WEB 1 Now, brothers, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to him, we ask you 2 not to be quickly shaken in your mind, and not be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by letter as if from us, saying that the day of Christ has already come. 3 Let no one deceive you in any way. For it will not be, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 he who opposes and exalts himself against all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God. 5 Don’t you remember that, when I was still with you, I told you these things? 6 Now you know what is restraining him, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness already works. Only there is one who restrains now, until he is taken out of the way. 8 Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming; 9 even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie; 12 that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. 13 But we are bound to always give thanks to God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth, 14 to which he called you through our Good News, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold the traditions which you were taught by us, whether by word or by letter. 16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, 17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good work and word.

Seems that the man of sin won't be revealed until he who restrains is withdrawn.

Who is he who restrains?
I've been taught that he who restrains is the Holy Spirit of God.

These are really basic questions that you should be able to answer.
 
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