10 reasons why the Bible can be trusted

[Tiburon]

Then why do you think that the descriptions and experiences of others are going to convince you?

I learned a long time ago that nobody else's experiences are enough. We each need to experience life ourselves.

Since YHVH says he'd make sure that we would know him, the question becomes at what point do you stop depending on others to solve your problem, when YHVH clearly states he alone has the wherewithal to achieve what he said?

I don't.
You are the one who keeps harping upon how many millions of people are supposed to have found Jesus to be real and knowable.
Since the Bible says, that YHVH says he'd make sure that we would know him, and yet many people still do not, at what point do you accept that the Bible is incorrect?

 

[SteveB]

I don't.

Not from my perspective.

You are the one who keeps harping upon how many millions of people are supposed to have found Jesus to be real and knowable.

Yep.
the point being that your failure to make his acquaintance has to deal with this.
your failure to meet him has to deal with my ENT doctor's testimony that the healing of my gunshot wound to the throat, 2 weeks after the shooting and surgery to remove the bullet and close the wound.

you have to deal with my 9 oncologists who were involved in my repeatedly recurrent metastatic melanoma cancer from 1997 through early 2004. Non-christian, medical professionals who are board certified oncologists, radiologists, etc... all testified to the fact that my survival is miraculous.
there are plenty of such experiences throughout the body of Christ (the regenerated church) on planet earth, throughout the past 1990 years.

Since the Bible says, that YHVH says he'd make sure that we would know him, and yet many people still do not, at what point do you accept that the Bible is incorrect?

What makes you think that your perspective on this is actually accurate?

You've repeatedly stated that you don't actually know God is real. So why would you continue to believe that you have a clue about what God says, and has made known to the human race?

He said that the heavens declare his glory in psalm 19.

In Romans 1, he said--

Rom 1:19-22 WEB 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

It's further written further down the page,

Rom 1:28 WEB Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

By rejecting knowledge of God, you close yourself off, and going back to the above passage--

but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Your thinking becomes twisted and futile. You darken your heart, and in attempting to make yourself wise, you turn yourself into a fool.

In all that.... you will indeed know God is real after you die, and then face the day of judgment.

It's a pretty terrifying description.

Rev 20:11 WEB I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.


Look very carefully at this passage.
The entire human race, who did not believe in Jesus is there.

So profound is God's Presence that everyone fled from him, but they couldn't get away.


So.... yep. You'll know he's real, one way or another.

He'd rather you come to Jesus and place your trust in Jesus to receive the forgiveness of your sin.
He'd rather adopt you as his child.

But if you decide--no thanks! Not interested!-- you'll attend the great white throne judgment.



Rev 20:11-15 WEB 11 I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. 12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

So, by all means.... please explain why the Bible is incorrect.

You're going to know God is real... you can either do so now, and you'll become an adopted child of YHVH. Or wait until after you die.

 

[Tiburon]

I did.

I must have missed it.

I lack belief in taco bell too. This morning they had the audacity to advertise $10 sandals for $60, apparently just because their logo was on them.

So, I'm guessing that makes me an a-taco-bell-ist.

That doesn't mean taco bell doesn't exist. It simply means that I've long since lost my respect for the company and their food. If it could actually be called food anymore.

You lack belief in Allah, buddha, Vishnu and all other gods but YHVH.

Nope.
This is known as intellectual laziness.
You have done nothing except to decide you don't want to actually know YHVH.
There's no diligence in corroborating your beliefs.
This is like saying that my dislike for taco bell is proof that they aren't actually a fast food joint.

If you think actually investigating religions and their claims is intellectual laziness, I don't know what to say.

so, you have actual evidence that there is nothing?

No, I don't have evidence that there is something.

What does conclusive evidence look like to you?
because YHVH has been giving me conclusive evidence ever since June 27, 1977.
it's been pretty awesome too.

I'm not sure but I expect a God would know what I would find conclusive.
I think you have been giving yourself conclusive evidence ever since June 27, 1977.

To the same apostles also, after his suffering, he presented himself alive with many convincing proofs. He was seen by them over a forty-day period and spoke about matters concerning the kingdom of God

He has yet to provide me with any convincing proofs.

So, I find myself wondering....
Just what do you think conclusive evidence is?
Do you think you deserve more, or better than what he's been doing for his followers for the past 1990 years?
If so, why do you deserve special treatment?

I think we all deserve the same treatment.
We all deserve evidence that we find convincing.

There's plenty he's said he'll do for us.
The one that strikes me as the most important, and powerful is Jeremiah 24:7

Jer 24:7 WEB I will give them a heart to know me, that I am Yahweh. They will be my people, and I will be their God; for they will return to me with their whole heart.

another, equally important and powerful is

1Jn 4:10 WEB In this is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

and my favorite,

Joh 14:23 WEB Jesus answered him, “If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

I think what I find so powerful is that God is stating that he will make sure that we actually know he's real, and knowable.

If you're trying to hide, you don't offer to move into someone's home, and get comfortable.

I have found none of this to be true.

really?
Because you're telling me that you never actually met Jesus.
the Bible says that YHVH will adopt us as his children. God becomes our heavenly Father, and Jesus our brother.
I don't know what your family is like, but I have 3 siblings.
I have a dad. My mom died 23 years ago, but the relationship was very real.
The dynamics were wonky, but the people are real.

so, just how do you think conclusive evidence works here?

that's the difference...
you merely accepted them.
there's no engagement with YHVH in your description.

The Bible says a lot of things.
You can't engage with something that isn't real.
You can engage with the idea of that thing.

pity you stopped before you actually engaged him on the terms he defined.
to you it's merely something historical. A bunch of nice stories from an ancient past that happened a long, long, long time ago.
That's what it was to me until I took him seriously, on his terms.
At which point I was utterly blown away.

According to your story you originally engaged with him on your terms.

Why do I need to prove YHVH?
This just tells me that you didn't pay attention when you supposedly read the Bible.


So, what do you think proving him looks like when he's in eternity?

YHVH dwells beyond time and space?

Does the Bible say YHVH dwells beyond time and space?

As referenced above, he proves himself to those who engage him on his terms.

He proves himself to those who convince themselves that he is real.

In the case of the Bible, it requires our engagement with YHVH to know him.
That's your decision.
If you don't care, when death comes, you'll be separated from him for all eternity. And the other place isn't a place prepared for humanity.
That's generally the excuse atheists give to justify their unbelief.

I cannot decide to believe something that I don't.
No, That's generally the answer atheists give to those who don't understand what atheism is.

So, your calling Him a liar makes everything he said a lie?
Interesting.
How does that work in your mind?
You just call people liars, regardless, and you're right?

Being a liar means you know that what you are saying is false.
You are not a liar if what you believe to be true is wrong.

No. But apparently wanting to not believe makes it unconvincing.

I actually wanted to believe, but the more I studied the Bible the less convincing I found it.

This is completely different from what you previously stated.

You stated above:
My diligence of effort to prove my childhood religious beliefs, is what lead me to atheism.

Now you're stating that you didn't do anything but choose to live without knowing.

No, it is not completely different to what I just stated. Let me put it like this My diligence of effort to prove my childhood religious beliefs, is what lead me to a lack of belief in any God.

No worries.
You'll find yourself extremely convinced after you die.
The sad thing is, if by the end of your life you continue to dismiss him, your being convinced will be without any hope for changing your mind and believing to salvation.

No, I'll be dead. That's the end. Finito.

 

[Tiburon]

Not from my perspective.

Yep.
the point being that your failure to make his acquaintance has to deal with this.
your failure to meet him has to deal with my ENT doctor's testimony that the healing of my gunshot wound to the throat, 2 weeks after the shooting and surgery to remove the bullet and close the wound.

you have to deal with my 9 oncologists who were involved in my repeatedly recurrent metastatic melanoma cancer from 1997 through early 2004. Non-christian, medical professionals who are board certified oncologists, radiologists, etc... all testified to the fact that my survival is miraculous.
there are plenty of such experiences throughout the body of Christ (the regenerated church) on planet earth, throughout the past 1990 years.

I have to deal with none of that. People believe all kinds of things that I don't. Do I have to deal with UFO's and Bigfoot? No.
Supply written testimonials.

What makes you think that your perspective on this is actually accurate?

You've repeatedly stated that you don't actually know God is real. So why would you continue to believe that you have a clue about what God says, and has made known to the human race?

For the same reason that you believe you have a clue. It's based upon my experience and my ability to navigate the world. If my perspective doesn't impact my ability to do that then I trust it. When it fails to do so I re-evaluate.

He said that the heavens declare his glory in psalm 19.

In Romans 1, he said--

Rom 1:19-22 WEB 19 because that which is known of God is revealed in them, for God revealed it to them. 20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity, that they may be without excuse. 21 Because knowing God, they didn’t glorify him as God, and didn’t give thanks, but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

So what? Anyone can make this claim about their God. And most do. I can claim that the heavens declare the glory of the flying spaghetti monster. It's just an empty claim.
Does childhood cancer declare the glory of your God?

It's further written further down the page,

Rom 1:28 WEB Even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

By rejecting knowledge of God, you close yourself off, and going back to the above passage--

but became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Your thinking becomes twisted and futile. You darken your heart, and in attempting to make yourself wise, you turn yourself into a fool.

In all that.... you will indeed know God is real after you die, and then face the day of judgment.

It's a pretty terrifying description.

Rev 20:11 WEB I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.

Look very carefully at this passage.
The entire human race, who did not believe in Jesus is there.

So profound is God's Presence that everyone fled from him, but they couldn't get away.

So.... yep. You'll know he's real, one way or another.

He'd rather you come to Jesus and place your trust in Jesus to receive the forgiveness of your sin.
He'd rather adopt you as his child.

But if you decide--no thanks! Not interested!-- you'll attend the great white throne judgment.


Rev 20:11-15 WEB 11 I saw a great white throne and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them. 12 I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and they opened books. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged out of the things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.

So, by all means.... please explain why the Bible is incorrect.

You're going to know God is real... you can either do so now, and you'll become an adopted child of YHVH. Or wait until after you die.

You continue to quote the Bible as if I should find it impactful. It is just another book written by men extolling the virtues of the god they believe in. It doesn't evidence the claims made within it.
Why is the Bible incorrect?
Lets see, the Creation story doesn't fit with what we know of the real world. As allegory it is fine, as reality, not so much.
Noah and his ark. This is just a common story borrowed from neighbouring cultures. As allegory it is fine as reality, not so much.
The exodus from Egypt. There may have been some Hebrews in Egypt as slaves or simply as immigrants who left and returned to the levant.
There is no evidence to support the story as presented in the Bible. Again some of the motifs, Moses in the bulrushes and being raised by royalty are shared with other cultures.
Just for starters.

 

[bigthinker]

A two part (so far) video series describing why the Bible is trustworthy.

We could also discuss why the bible is delicious.
But it would be just as meaningless as saying the bible can be trusted.

 

[SteveB]

We could also discuss why the bible is delicious.

Pity that bothers you.
Contained within the Bible is a banquet beyond description. It can only be understood by those who come and eat.

But it would be just as meaningless as saying the bible can be trusted.

Only to people who are too terrified to come and see for themselves.

 

[bigthinker]

Pity that bothers you.

I'm not bothered. It is of zero consequence to me.

Contained within the Bible is a banquet beyond description. It can only be understood by those who come and eat.

Obviously I don't have your imagination.

Only to people who are too terrified to come and see for themselves.

This is story that believers tell themselves when they realize they have nothing to back up their beliefs.
You are essentially talking to yourself and telling yourself stories instead of engaging me.

 

[SteveB]

I'm not bothered. It is of zero consequence to me.

I'd find that easier to believe if I hadn't become acquainted with you on an internet forum dedicated to talk about Jesus.
I.e., say if we'd met anywhere else.

Obviously I don't have your imagination.

Actually, it simply requires having read the Bible.

This is story that believers tell themselves when they realize they have nothing to back up their beliefs.

It's been said that Stephen Hawking said,
Heaven is a fairytale told by people who are afraid of the dark.

I think that John Lennox is more accurate.
nothing is a fairytale told by people who are afraid of the light.

You are essentially talking to yourself and telling yourself stories instead of engaging me.

Based on what I've been reading of your beliefs, I'd say that if someone is not engaging, it's you not engaging the truth.