10 reasons why the Bible can be trusted

[Eightcrackers]

So you cannot pick one yourself?

I cannot decide if that is because you are afraid it will be shot down if we actually get into the details... or you have not actually bothered to watch the video.

Why "or"?

 

[Eightcrackers]

Why ten?
If any one of them were any good, it would be the only one required.

 

[The Pixie]

What's it to you? What business is it of yours? Why can't you keep your self righteous snooping nose out of the personal life of others?

SteveB said: "The most effective way to know if what the Bible says is true is to do what Jesus says."

I do not believe he has done that himself, so I called him on it. Is it a problem if we call Christians on their hypocrisy?

 

[The Pixie]

Indeed.

Nope.

And yet you seem unable to do so.

So what is stopping you?

I didn't even have to go against all odds to have hope that this was doable.

And yet you are the open stopping it happening.

You started a thread about reasons why the bible can be trusted, but I do not think you have actually addressed that at all in the ten posts you have made on the thread. Some of those posts, like your last, have been quite lengthy, but none actually discuss why we should trust the Bible.

Jesus did after all tell us that the things which are impossible for men, are easily accomplished by God.

Your ongoing dedication to your deliberate and willful ignorance is the only thing preventing it.

10+ years of experience with your posts.

II the problem as I'm seeing it is that what you consider rational is the least rational thing on earth.

YHVH plainly stated that his thoughts, and his ways are beyond the heavens.

he further stated that he's chosen to not use the rationality of men to make himself knowable. But instead, he's chosen the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to make sure that we actually know God.
but, you continue to dismiss this, and believe that man's rational logic will achieve the truth.

A lot of words, but none of them are on topic.

Why do you refuse to discuss why we should trust the Bible?

That you think your belief is a necessity is what I find amusing.
Tell me why your belief that I'm telling you the truth is important to you.

Apparently you do. Otherwise you wouldn't be demanding that i tell you if i had.

Pity you don't actually think that knowing YHVH on his terms is sensible. Especially when he states he'll give us a heart to know him, and Jesus says that eternal life is knowing God and Jesus whom God sent.

Still nothing on trusting the Bible.

I am going to conclude you have nothing.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

SteveB said: "The most effective way to know if what the Bible says is true is to do what Jesus says."

I do not believe he has done that himself

So Jesus allowed YOU to eavesdrop on what He told Steve to do?

 

[SteveB]

SteveB said: "The most effective way to know if what the Bible says is true is to do what Jesus says."

That is what Jesus says. John 14:20-24, specifically vs 23.
His brother, James, says that if you don't do what Jesus says, you're only deceiving yourself. James 1:20-25

Granted, had you actually read the Bible for the purpose of learning and understanding, you'd have seen this for yourself.

I do not believe he has done that himself, so I called him on it.

you don't believe.... and this then is the only real problem.
you
don't
Believe....

Thats a you problem.
your unbelief only guarantees that you will perish.
Your unbelief excludes you from ever gaining any actual evidence, understanding, wisdom, awareness, or experience.

So, you can indeed continue to not believe anything I say. It's your life and that means that you and you alone get to live with the consequences for your choices, regardless of why you made those choices.

Is it a problem if we call Christians on their hypocrisy?

If you have actual evidence of their hypocrisy.

You however only have your belief.
You, like the other atheists here have repeatedly rejected my long standing invitation to visit me, so you have excluded yourself from actually getting evidence of my life.

And this means that you are the problem here.

 

[SteveB]

And yet you seem unable to do so.

So what is stopping you?


And yet you are the open stopping it happening.

You started a thread about reasons why the bible can be trusted, but I do not think you have actually addressed that at all in the ten posts you have made on the thread.

Don addresses them just fine. Why do you need me to absolve him for his ideas?

Some of those posts, like your last, have been quite lengthy, but none actually discuss why we should trust the Bible.

So, you're just whining because I think you're intelligent enough to understand my thoughts?

A lot of words, but none of them are on topic.

Not the topic you're ignoring.

Why do you refuse to discuss why we should trust the Bible?

What's to discuss?
You refuse to do what Jesus says.
It's not possible to actually gain first hand practical experience without doing it.
granted, I'm guessing that you're like MarkUK. He only wanted to know God exists, without actually meeting Jesus.
I found myself wondering why he had missed the point.
So, if this is all you want, everyone who follows Jesus, on this forum and has posted on the atheist forum has already told you that God exists.
If you don't want to actually meet Jesus, then nothing here is going to change your mind.

Still nothing on trusting the Bible.

There's been plenty.
Since however you continue to say that your belief is more important than the truth, I'm thinking that you don't actually want to know the truth, and are content with your beliefs.

I am going to conclude you have nothing.

See.... nothing rational about your biases and beliefs.

Further demonstrating that you don't actually care for rational discussion.

 

[Komodo]

I don't ignore the criticisms at all.

What makes you think that I'm supposed to take your criticisms with anything greater than an atheist's disregard for the truths they don't care to know the veracity of?

Steve doesn’t ignore criticisms; he just disregards them. If we atheists weren’t such proudly blind creatures, we would immediately understand this important distinction.

 

[SteveB]

Steve doesn’t ignore criticisms;

nope.

he just disregards them.

after I examine them, and compare them to God's Word, i take His Word over the criticisms.

If we atheists weren’t such proudly blind creatures, we would immediately understand this important distinction.

I wouldn't say immediately, but if you actually read for the purpose of learning and understanding, you'd grasp the distinction.

Let me ask you this....

As an atheist, as someone who has chosen to not believe God is who he claims to be and his word is true, and objective, with regards to the eternal state of the human being, and as such, is blind, and heart is hardened against Truth,
Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?

 

[SteveB]

Why ten?
If any one of them were any good, it would be the only one required.

You'll have to ask Don.

 

[SteveB]

The first argument is that there are many places in the Bible where wisdom and intelligence are praised; therefore the Bible encourages its readers to use their intelligence in examining the Bible itself; and therefore, the Bible must stand up well to such examination.

The initial claim is true, but those conclusions do not follow from it.

OK.
Since you're still stuck thinking your criticism is valid,

The Bible teaches that unless we engage him on his terms, we'll never actually make his acquaintance.

He stated that he inhabits eternity, and dwells with the humble and contrite. Isaiah 57:15.

He further stated that he holds the entire cosmos in the span of his hand. Isaiah 40:12.

He further stated that Jesus is the express image of the Father, and by knowing Jesus, we can know God. Colossians 1:16-19, John 14:5-9.

Jesus then said, by keeping his teachings, we will show God that we love him, and God himself will love us, and they will come and make their home with us. John 14:23.

YHVH further stated that he would give us a heart to know him. Jeremiah 24:7.

And then, in 1 Corinthians 1:21, we read that God explicitly chose not to use the wisdom of men to make himself knowable to us. But instead, chose the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save those who believe him.

Then, in Proverbs 3:5-8, we read that we're not to lean on our own understanding, but to trust him with all our heart and he will guide and direct our paths.

So.... use your own intelligence to examine the Bible and "figure it out"?

Not quite.

You can indeed read/examine it. But unless you actually do what Jesus says, you'll continue to be stuck, right where you are now, and never actually learn anything.

Paul describes this in his letters to Timothy.

Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


So.....
I find myself wondering....


How's your way of figuring this out working out for you?

Seems like you're just going around in circles.

 

[Komodo]

I wouldn't say immediately, but if you actually read for the purpose of learning and understanding, you'd grasp the distinction.

You could try to improve my "grasp"; provide an example in which one "disregards" some criticism but does not "ignore" it, an example which applies to how you've responded (or not responded) to my criticism of the video. If you do it well, I'll have to concede that this is a valid distinction and that I was wrong to say that just because you said nothing whatsoever that showed, implied or remotely suggested that my criticism was wrong, you were "ignoring" my criticism.

I mean, of course it's vanishingly unlikely that you're going to come within a mile of actually trying to show it, but if there were a significant distinction to grasp, you could try to do so.

Let me ask you this....

As an atheist, as someone who has chosen to not believe God is who he claims to be and his word is true, and objective, with regards to the eternal state of the human being, and as such, is blind, and heart is hardened against Truth,
Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?

"Steve, the fact that the Bible often praises 'wisdom' does not logically imply that the Bible asks readers to critically examine the Bible itself, let alone that the Bible stands up well to such examination."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, your claim about the meaning of 'logic' is wrong, because etymology doesn't determine current meaning."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, the word 'quoth' does not mean 'quoteth,' as you claim, it simply means 'says.' You can look it up; or consider how 'quoth' is used in the following passage..."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, your shoelace is untied."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

This is the constant, unchanging schtick of The SteveB Show: he ludicrously pretends that every criticism of SteveB, or of any author presented by SteveB, is actually an attack on "YHVH's Word," and as such he doesn't need to lower himself to respond to it. No, Steve; a criticism of the logic or some argument is a criticism of that specific argument: is it not necessarily an attack on the Bible or Jesus! Even if the Bible is right, and even if Jesus is the savior, that does not mean that every argument which is presented by SteveB, in person or by proxy, is true. You literally, repeatedly refuse to concede that this is the case!

It's especially absurd for Steve to pull this in the present context:

STEVE: Here is a video offering reasons to believe the Bible is trustworthy. Let the atheists consider these!
ME: The first reason offered is a poor one, because...
STEVE: Since I know the Bible is trustworthy, why should I listen to an atheist like you?

Well, that's me refuted!

 

[Komodo]

OK.
Since you're still stuck thinking your criticism is valid,

The Bible teaches that unless we engage him on his terms, we'll never actually make his acquaintance.

He stated that he inhabits eternity, and dwells with the humble and contrite. Isaiah 57:15.

He further stated that he holds the entire cosmos in the span of his hand. Isaiah 40:12.

He further stated that Jesus is the express image of the Father, and by knowing Jesus, we can know God. Colossians 1:16-19, John 14:5-9.

Jesus then said, by keeping his teachings, we will show God that we love him, and God himself will love us, and they will come and make their home with us. John 14:23.

YHVH further stated that he would give us a heart to know him. Jeremiah 24:7.

And then, in 1 Corinthians 1:21, we read that God explicitly chose not to use the wisdom of men to make himself knowable to us. But instead, chose the foolishness of preaching the cross of Jesus to save those who believe him.

Then, in Proverbs 3:5-8, we read that we're not to lean on our own understanding, but to trust him with all our heart and he will guide and direct our paths.

So.... use your own intelligence to examine the Bible and "figure it out"?

Not quite.

You can indeed read/examine it. But unless you actually do what Jesus says, you'll continue to be stuck, right where you are now, and never actually learn anything.

Paul describes this in his letters to Timothy.

Ever learning but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


So.....
I find myself wondering....


How's your way of figuring this out working out for you?

Seems like you're just going around in circles.

I say "the particular argument made in the video for how we can know that the Bible is trustworthy, is a poor argument; it relies on non-sequiturs."

Steve does not deny that the video makes this particular argument.

Steve does not deny that the argument is a poor one, for the reason I gave.

Instead, he spends ~300 words offering a completely different case for trusting the Bible, one which bears no resemblance whatsoever to the case made in the video which Steve recommended.

It's actually even worse than that. The video says that the Bible asks its readers to use their intelligence to examine the Bible itself. I say that's not evident. And Steve's response to me here is to say, essentially, "you can't expect to understand the Bible by using only your own intelligence to examine it; the Bible says 'lean not on your own understanding'."

Yes it does! Therefore my criticism of the video -- that it fallaciously assumed that the praise of "intelligence" in the Bible meant that the Bible was inviting people to use their intelligence to examine the Bible itself -- was obviously correct, according to Steve's own reading of the Bible. But Steve absolutely refuses to acknowledge this.

tl;dr version:

ME: The video says that because the Bible praises "intelligence," the Bible must be inviting readers to use that intelligence to examine the Bible itself, This doesn't follow,
STEVE: This just shows how atheism has corrupted your heart and mind, In fact, the Bible does not invite readers to use their intelligence to examine the Bible itself, it positively discourages them from "leaning on their own understanding" in such matters.

Once again the atheist is helpless before the Logos of SteveB!

 

[SteveB]

You could try to improve my "grasp"; provide an example in which one "disregards" some criticism but does not "ignore" it, an example which applies to how you've responded (or not responded) to my criticism of the video. If you do it well, I'll have to concede that this is a valid distinction and that I was wrong to say that just because you said nothing whatsoever that showed, implied or remotely suggested that my criticism was wrong, you were "ignoring" my criticism.

I mean, of course it's vanishingly unlikely that you're going to come within a mile of actually trying to show it, but if there were a significant distinction to grasp, you could try to do so.



"Steve, the fact that the Bible often praises 'wisdom' does not logically imply that the Bible asks readers to critically examine the Bible itself, let alone that the Bible stands up well to such examination."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, your claim about the meaning of 'logic' is wrong, because etymology doesn't determine current meaning."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, the word 'quoth' does not mean 'quoteth,' as you claim, it simply means 'says.' You can look it up; or consider how 'quoth' is used in the following passage..."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

"Steve, your shoelace is untied."
"Why would we who have actually met Jesus, and understand the situation, from an eternal perspective, take your criticisms as having greater validity than YHVH's Word?"

This is the constant, unchanging schtick of The SteveB Show: he ludicrously pretends that every criticism of SteveB, or of any author presented by SteveB, is actually an attack on "YHVH's Word," and as such he doesn't need to lower himself to respond to it. No, Steve; a criticism of the logic or some argument is a criticism of that specific argument: is it not necessarily an attack on the Bible or Jesus! Even if the Bible is right, and even if Jesus is the savior, that does not mean that every argument which is presented by SteveB, in person or by proxy, is true. You literally, repeatedly refuse to concede that this is the case!

It's especially absurd for Steve to pull this in the present context:

STEVE: Here is a video offering reasons to believe the Bible is trustworthy. Let the atheists consider these!
ME: The first reason offered is a poor one, because...
STEVE: Since I know the Bible is trustworthy, why should I listen to an atheist like you?

Well, that's me refuted!

No, actually, it looks like you humiliating yourself in order to embarrass yourself.


The sad thing is....

You have been repeatedly given the wherewithal to demonstrate that the Bible is true, simply by taking the time, and engaging YHVH on his terms.

Hmm..... let's see....

What do you do for hobbies, and how did you learn to do those things, and by what means did you learn that you can achieve the goals of your hobbies?

For me, until 1997, I was convinced that if I touched a computer I'd accidentally find the proper key combination and wipe out the human race. Literally.

I'd never used a computer before, and my attempts were fraught with stupidity.

So, leading up to my cancer diagnosis, my wife had finally convinced me that I could not destroy the world, no matter what key combinations I stumbled upon.

So, I contacted the bank, got a loan, and before we could order the computer, my mom bought us a gateway computer and thus my entry into the world of computers.

Ironically, by the end of 1997, I took to them like a fish in water.
By February 1998, I had bought ram, and expanded its capabilities. I then bought a hard drive and increased its storage, and by the summer, I bought a standalone version of Excel97, and spent the summer writing a book, and the first rendition of my program.

Through this whole process, I had to ask lots of questions, read, and just jump in and get my hands dirty and take chances, hoping that whatever I did, I wouldn't destroy anything. The computer included.

So, pick a hobby and explain how you figured it out.

 

[Komodo]

No, actually, it looks like you humiliating yourself in order to embarrass yourself.


The sad thing is....

You have been repeatedly given the wherewithal to demonstrate that the Bible is true, simply by taking the time, and engaging YHVH on his terms.

Hmm..... let's see....

What do you do for hobbies, and how did you learn to do those things, and by what means did you learn that you can achieve the goals of your hobbies?

For me, until 1997, I was convinced that if I touched a computer I'd accidentally find the proper key combination and wipe out the human race. Literally.

I'd never used a computer before, and my attempts were fraught with stupidity.

So, leading up to my cancer diagnosis, my wife had finally convinced me that I could not destroy the world, no matter what key combinations I stumbled upon.

So, I contacted the bank, got a loan, and before we could order the computer, my mom bought us a gateway computer and thus my entry into the world of computers.

Ironically, by the end of 1997, I took to them like a fish in water.
By February 1998, I had bought ram, and expanded its capabilities. I then bought a hard drive and increased its storage, and by the summer, I bought a standalone version of Excel97, and spent the summer writing a book, and the first rendition of my program.

Through this whole process, I had to ask lots of questions, read, and just jump in and get my hands dirty and take chances, hoping that whatever I did, I wouldn't destroy anything. The computer included.

So, pick a hobby and explain how you figured it out.

ME: You say you didn't "ignore" my criticism, you just "disregarded" it. If you really believe there's a significant distinction here, you should be able to give an example where something has been "disregarded" but has not been "ignored." Of course I don't believe you're actually going to come anywhere close to doing this, or even attempting to do this,

STEVE: [Posts 300 words without actually coming anywhere close to doing this, or even attempting to do this.]

 

[SteveB]

ME: You say you didn't "ignore" my criticism, you just "disregarded" it. If you really believe there's a significant distinction here, you should be able to give an example where something has been "disregarded" but has not been "ignored." Of course I don't believe you're actually going to come anywhere close to doing this, or even attempting to do this,

STEVE: [Posts 300 words without actually coming anywhere close to doing this, or even attempting to do this.]

Yeah.
You're not actually interested in understanding or learning.

Enjoy your deliberate and willful ignorance.

 

[Komodo]

Yeah.
You're not actually interested in understanding or learning.

Enjoy your deliberate and willful ignorance.

Steve pretends to believe that a failure to take seriously a post by SteveB is geometric proof that one is not interested in understanding or learning.

Or maybe he's not pretending.

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

The first argument is that there are many places in the Bible where wisdom and intelligence are praised; therefore the Bible encourages its readers to use their intelligence in examining the Bible itself; and therefore, the Bible must stand up well to such examination.

The initial claim is true, but those conclusions do not follow from it.

Your conclusion is false.
God promised to give those who didn't give Him the glory over to a delusion. Which you prove God kept His promise.

 

[SteveB]

Steve pretends to believe that a failure to take seriously a post by SteveB is geometric proof that one is not interested in understanding or learning.

It's your prerogative to exclude yourself from engaging in learning the dynamic of learning to know YHVH.

Or maybe he's not pretending.

Let's see if you're actually interested in engaging.

What do you do for hobbies, and how did you learn to do those things, and by what means did you learn that you can achieve the goals of your hobbies?

For me, until 1997, I was convinced that if I touched a computer I'd accidentally find the proper key combination and wipe out the human race. Literally.

I'd never used a computer before, and my attempts were fraught with stupidity.

So, leading up to my cancer diagnosis, my wife had finally convinced me that I could not destroy the world, no matter what key combinations I stumbled upon.

So, I contacted the bank, got a loan, and before we could order the computer, my mom bought us a gateway computer and thus my entry into the world of computers.

Ironically, by the end of 1997, I took to them like a fish in water.
By February 1998, I had bought ram, and expanded its capabilities. I then bought a hard drive and increased its storage, and by the summer, I bought a standalone version of Excel97, and spent the summer writing a book, and the first rendition of my program.

Through this whole process, I had to ask lots of questions, read, and just jump in and get my hands dirty and take chances, hoping that whatever I did, I wouldn't destroy anything. The computer included.

So, pick a hobby and explain how you figured it out.

the choice is entirely yours.

 

[Our Lord's God]

Steve pretends to believe that a failure to take seriously a post by SteveB is geometric proof that one is not interested in understanding or learning.

Or maybe he's not pretending.

That's right. But he's hoping you will.