15+ Dead In Texas School Shooting; 18-y.o. student Salvador Ramos Identified As Shooter

sundance said:
No. Fund police, but allow others to defend themselves. We can do BOTH. Again. False dilemma.
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You specifically said police should get out of the way, implying that we don't actually need them, but let people like you take charge.
 
vibise said:
Yes, you are on board with the ACLU! Good to know that.
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When they manage to actually defend freedom, yes. Sadly that's become less frequent in recent decades.
vibise said:
This whole subthread started when you blamed gun massacres on mental illness, in support of statements by Republicans trying to divert from the gun issues. The only legislation proposed and passed regarding mental illness and guns was the one passed under Obama, which was clearly flawed. OK, so what is YOUR proposal to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill and violent people? Have conservatives proposed anything that would expand mental health access and treatment? If so, I missed it.
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I didn't quote any Republicans, nor support any Republican statements, nor any conservative statements. I didn't support anyone's statements other than my own.

I made a statement of my own. You claimed there was no evidence. You were given the evidence, and now you're flopping around desperately trying to avoid the disproving of your falsehood.
 
sundance said:
No. That is your silliness. If you do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Christ, the Savior of the world, then you will die in your sins. Just like Jesus said.
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no, seriously

Are you saying that when Jesus said all that stuff about giving away all your worldly goods, it was just a test?

Please elaborate. That is a new one on me.


sundance said:
None of the people like yourself really know what Jesus did and didn't do.

Joh 8:24 I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins.”
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I am familiar with numerous versions of the Christ character. Which one do you subscribe to?

all you need to tell me is your sect
 
Backup said:
no, seriously

Are you saying that when Jesus said all that stuff about giving away all your worldly goods, it was just a test?

Please elaborate. That is a new one on me.



I am familiar with numerous versions of the Christ character. Which one do you subscribe to?

all you need to tell me is your sect
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To the rich man, his wealth was the most important thing to him. Think of what id most important to you. Would you give that away to follow Jesus.
 
Backup said:
no, seriously

Are you saying that when Jesus said all that stuff about giving away all your worldly goods, it was just a test?

Please elaborate. That is a new one on me.



I am familiar with numerous versions of the Christ character. Which one do you subscribe to?

all you need to tell me is your sect
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Why do you feel the need to pigeon hole him . That is an attempt to divert from the main point.
 
DeSanto said:
I have questions.

I read the boy moved in with his grandmother in March. Where did he live before that?

Where do his parents live?

I read he bought two, very expensive, rifles days before the shooting.

Where did he get the money for them?
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Hunter Biden.
 
So it sounds like the gunman roamed around outside for at least 12 minutes, before he found the unlocked door and entered without challenge (a change in the story police were telling earlier that officers had confronted him and shot at him). The police were called 2 minutes into that 12 minutes of roaming. The police didn't actually breach and shoot him until 90 minutes later.

www.bbc.com

Uvalde shooting: Texas police change key details as criticism mounts

Officials due to speak amid questions over why officers took more than an hour to stop the attack.
www.bbc.com
The gunman roamed outside the Uvalde school for 12 minutes before entering unchallenged, police said on Thursday.



That contradicted earlier statements which said the attacker had been confronted and shot at by an officer.



He killed 19 children and two teachers before he was shot dead 90 minutes after he arrived, police said.



That delay, combined with video footage showing frustrated parents being tackled and handcuffed by police while the gunman was still inside the school, has led to growing public anger and scrutiny of the early response.



It has also called into question claims by state Governor Greg Abbott, who earlier this week hailed the "quick response" of "valiant local officials" who he said had engaged the gunman before he entered the school. "They showed amazing courage by running toward gunfire," he said.



The latest timeline was given at a news conference by Texas Ranger Victor Escalon, who said several times that he wanted to "clear up" previous statements. He defended the police response and spoke of the emotional toll the shooting had taken on officers. "We're all hurting inside," he said.




But the timeline of events was still unclear after Thursday's briefing, and questions remain about how long it took officers to arrive and why the gunman, 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, was inside the school for more than an hour before he was killed - not by local officers - but by a tactical unit led by US border agents.



Mr Escalon said Ramos crashed his vehicle nearby at 11:28, with the first emergency call coming two minutes later as witnesses reported a man carrying a gun. Ramos then shot at members of the public, roamed the school premises, and entered freely through an unlocked door at 11:40.



Police arrived on site four minutes later, Mr Escalon said. But it is unclear how close they got to the gunman or whether they attempted to enter the classroom where the shooting took place.



Police initially said the officers were "inside making entry" and took cover after coming under heavy fire. This was revised on Thursday by Mr Escalon. "They [didn't] make entry immediately because of the gunfire they were receiving," he said.



At 12:45, the gunman was shot dead by a team led by an elite Border Patrol tactical unit. Mr Escalon played down previous statements by police that there had been ongoing exchanges of gunfire during the previous hour. "The majority of the gunfire was in the beginning," he told reporters.


Witnesses have said police were hesitant to confront the killer, and videos from the scene show officers gathered outside while being urged by desperate family members to storm the building immediately.



One mother told the Wall Street Journal that she was briefly handcuffed and accused of impeding a police investigation, after demanding - along with other parents - that officers enter the school. Angeli Rose Gomez said she saw one father thrown to the ground by an officer, another pepper-sprayed and a third who was tasered.



"The police were doing nothing," said Ms Gomez, who was eventually released. She said she jumped over the school fence and ran inside to rescue her two children. "They [the police] were just standing outside the fence. They weren't going in there or running anywhere."



"They say they rushed in," Javier Cazares, whose daughter Jacklyn was killed in the attack, told the Associated Press. "We didn't see that."



"A lot of us were arguing with the police, 'You all need to go in there. You all need to do your jobs'. Their response was, 'We can't do our jobs because you guys are interfering.'"


The apparent delay in entering the building deviates from guidance that became standard police practice after the 1999 Columbine High School massacre, which states that the first officers on the scene should do whatever they can to stop an attack without waiting for backup.





Mr Escalon refused to answer several questions about why the gunman had not been killed sooner. He said he had "taken all those questions into consideration" and would give an update later.



Investigators have found no indication the gunman had a history of mental illness or a criminal record. He legally purchased two AR-style rifles in the week before the attack, shortly after his 18th birthday.
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When my UberEats driver has a better response time than the police, that's pretty sad. But highlights the fact that we cannot rely on, or count on, the police to come and save us.

And then the police literally HANDCUFFED one of the parents outside who was urging them to go inside and DO SOMETHING. "interfering with a police investigation", the usual excuse for police mistreatment of civilians nearby who are criticizing them or saying things they don't like.

Another parent thrown to the ground by police, another tazed and yet another was pepper sprayed.

Every officer involved in that should no longer have a badge or be allowed near any sort of law enforcement or security job. From the sounds of it, most of the police force there doesn't deserve to wear a badge.
 
sundance said:
People do good driving, till they don't. Which is the argument you made for taking away guns. Now you want to amend your argument. Silly.
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Cars weren't designed to kill other drivers - which makes your analogy worse than silly: dishonest.
 
Okay. Wow. Oh, boy. This one has got me wanting to say a LOT of words that would get me banned.



:mad: So CNN interviewed the SPOKESMAN of the Texas Department of Public Safety, who tried to excuse the police for not going in, by saying, and I quote “At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could’ve been shot, they could’ve been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school.”

That one had me close to punching a wall when I saw this. Oh, is that right, spokesman of the DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY? The police could have been shot and the gunman would have been able to kill other people inside the school? Okay then, so what in the HELL do you think he was doing for the hour the police sat outside, afraid of being shot? Playing pat-a-cake? I better stop here before I throw my monitor across the room. :mad:


Police slow to engage with gunman because ‘they could’ve been shot,’ official says



Police were reluctant to immediately engage with the gunman who spent an hour inside the elementary school in Uvalde, Tex., where he killed 19 children and two adults because “they could’ve been shot,” a lieutenant with the Texas Department of Public Safety said in a CNN interview.


Law enforcement officers have faced mounting criticism from some parents who say police could have intervened sooner against 18-year-old Salvador Ramos in an effort from officers that was initially deemed by Texas Gov. Greg Abbott (R) as a “quick response.” Police who arrived at the school retreated as shots rang out, state authorities said Thursday, and it took an hour before a tactical unit led by federal Border Patrol agents went into a classroom and killed the gunman.


Texas Department of Public Safety spokesman Lt. Chris Olivarez defended the response in an interview Thursday with CNN’s Wolf Blitzer, who asked the lieutenant to walk him through “what exactly law enforcement was doing for 60 minutes or so while the shooter remained in that classroom killing those kids and teachers?”


Olivarez said that while the goal for law enforcement during active-shooter situations such as the one this week in Uvalde is to stop the killing and preserve life, officers did not initially know where Ramos was located when they were shot at.


“At that point, if they proceeded any further not knowing where the suspect was at, they could’ve been shot, they could’ve been killed, and that gunman would have had an opportunity to kill other people inside that school,” Olivarez said.


https://twitter.com/x/status/1529977770931113987


Olivarez’s remarks were criticized by those on both the political left and right and by parents, some of whom were tackled or handcuffed as they tried to enter the school on Tuesday to try to save their children.




A DPS spokesperson did not immediately respond to a request for comment early Friday. The DPS is expected to have a news briefing on Friday.



Standard law enforcement guidance since the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School in Colorado says officers should pursue shooters inside buildings without waiting for specialized backup. Since Columbine, many police departments have trained officers to go after an attacker as soon as possible, to minimize the number of teachers and children shot.

Before Columbine, older guidance often emphasized waiting for specially trained officers, such as a SWAT team. The speed and willingness of officers to pursue shooters into buildings has been called into question following other attacks in recent years, including the massacre at a high school in Parkland, Fla., in 2018.






While the Uvalde Police Department’s policy on responding to an active shooter is not publicly available, Olivarez said in an interview with The Washington Post on Thursday that “the protocol is to address the threat.”


“You go at the threat, you go at where the gunfire is at because you’re trying to stop the threat,” he said.
The lieutenant’s comments to CNN add to an incomplete — and evolving — explanation of what happened at Robb Elementary. Officials have offered varied timelines and explanations of the massacre and law enforcement’s response, and have also made sometimes inconsistent or contradictory announcements about key details involving the shooter.


Cellphone videos from outside Robb Elementary on Tuesday and witness accounts detail how parents were yelling at police, pleading with them to enter the school to protect their children. Javier Cazares, whose 9-year-old daughter, Jacklyn, was shot and killed, said parents “wanted to storm the building” when officers told them to move away from it.






Some of the videos posted to social media, which have been viewed millions of times, showed tearful parents pleading with officers in tactical gear — some carrying rifles or Tasers — to go inside the school and tackle the gunman, or allow them to do so themselves.


“You’re scared of getting shot?” one mother said, according to one video. “I’ll go in without a vest — I will!”
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EDIT: On second thought I guess I really shouldn't be too surprised. After all:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1530038826466308096
 
Gondwanaland said:
So it sounds like the gunman roamed around outside for at least 12 minutes, before he found the unlocked door and entered without challenge (a change in the story police were telling earlier that officers had confronted him and shot at him). The police were called 2 minutes into that 12 minutes of roaming. The police didn't actually breach and shoot him until 90 minutes later.

www.bbc.com

Uvalde shooting: Texas police change key details as criticism mounts

Officials due to speak amid questions over why officers took more than an hour to stop the attack.
www.bbc.com


When my UberEats driver has a better response time than the police, that's pretty sad. But highlights the fact that we cannot rely on, or count on, the police to come and save us.

And then the police literally HANDCUFFED one of the parents outside who was urging them to go inside and DO SOMETHING. "interfering with a police investigation", the usual excuse for police mistreatment of civilians nearby who are criticizing them or saying things they don't like.

Another parent thrown to the ground by police, another tazed and yet another was pepper sprayed.

Every officer involved in that should no longer have a badge or be allowed near any sort of law enforcement or security job. From the sounds of it, most of the police force there doesn't deserve to wear a badge.
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Seems like the government is changing their story a lot.
 
vibise said:
You specifically said police should get out of the way, implying that we don't actually need them, but let people like you take charge.
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Well if they are going to stand around outside while shot up kids are bleeding out and dying inside then yes, get out of the way. Go be useless somewhere else.
 
sundance said:
Get out of MY WAY. Not out of the way entirely.
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So police should get out of the way of random people who show up with guns? And stand to the side while you people shoot up the place?

Explain how that would make the rest of us safer? The Rambo-obsession of gun-nuts does NOT make the rest of us safer.
 
vibise said:
You specifically said police should get out of the way, implying that we don't actually need them, but let people like you take charge.
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Like, they police sat outside for over an hour, and instead of going in spent that time handcuffing one parent, tazing another, pepper spraying a third, and throwing a fourth to the ground, wile the parents became angered and pleading for the police to do their jobs, one woman saying she'd personally go in, bulletproof vest or not.

So..... sounds like maybe they should get the hell out the way....
 
vibise said:
So police should get out of the way of random people who show up with guns? And stand to the side while you people shoot up the place?

Explain how that would make the rest of us safer? The Rambo-obsession of gun-nuts does NOT make the rest of us safer.
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You have yet yo address the issue of a prolonged response time by police.

Do you think the victims should wait till the police come and stop an armed person trying to harm them.
 
Backup said:
no, seriously

Are you saying that when Jesus said all that stuff about giving away all your worldly goods, it was just a test?

Please elaborate. That is a new one on me.
Click to expand...

The LOVED his richs to the point he was not willing to give them up. The first commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, body and mind.

Get it?

Backup said:
I am familiar with numerous versions of the Christ character. Which one do you subscribe to?

all you need to tell me is your sect
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You're being lazy. I'm not part of any sect.
 
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