15+ Dead In Texas School Shooting; 18-y.o. student Salvador Ramos Identified As Shooter

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member

"the shooters are young psychopaths"


Rep. Byron Donalds (R-FL) Byron asks the right questions and has brilliant understanding.

"removing the 2nd amendment will not stop young psychopaths"
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
They never even tried to open the doors to the classrooms

That whole thing about trying a bunch of keys out and waiting for more keys? Yeah, never once were the keys tried on the door to the classrooms where the shooter was. No, instead they were being tested on some other door in the school to try to find a 'master key'.

This all while the entire time having access to and possession of a halligan bar which could have easily allowed them to get through the door without any key.


Law enforcement officials reportedly never tried to open the door at a Texas elementary school last month where a shooter murdered 19 children.

“Surveillance footage shows that police never tried to open a door to two classrooms at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde in the 77 minutes between the time a gunman entered the rooms and massacred 21 people and officers finally breached the door and killed him,” the San Antonio Express-News reported, noting that the information came from a law enforcement official who was involved in investigating law enforcement’s response to the tragedy. “Investigators believe the 18-year-old gunman who killed 19 children and two teachers at the school on May 24 could not have locked the door to the connected classrooms from the inside.”

The doors are reportedly designed so they can only be locked or unlocked from the outside, and police might have assumed that the door was locked. The report said that it is not known if the door to the classroom where the 18-year-old Hispanic male was holed up was even locked.

The source told the local newspaper that it didn’t even matter whether the door was locked because “officers had access the entire time to a ‘halligan’ — a crowbar-like tool that could have opened the door to the classrooms even if it was locked.”

The news comes as a report from The New York Times revealed that a law enforcement official with the city, not the school district, who was armed with an AR-15 style rifle had the opportunity to shoot the attacker before he entered the school but didn’t because he hesitated over fear that he might hit kids in the background.

“The chief deputy sheriff said that any attempt to shoot the moving gunman would have been difficult, and that the officer would undoubtedly have faced harsh criticism and possibly even a criminal investigation had he missed and hit a bystander in the distance, especially a child,” the report noted.

Uvalde CISD Police Chief Pete Arredondo arrived on scene without having a radio at 11:35 a.m. as at least two responding officers were already moving into the hallway outside the classroom door where the attacker was located. Arredondo used a cell phone to call the police department to ask for a radio, a rifle, and heavily-armed backup.

“The decision to establish a perimeter outside the classroom, a little over five minutes after the shooting began, shifted the police response from one in which every officer would try to confront the gunman as fast as possible to one where officers treated the gunman as barricaded and no longer killing,” The New York Times reported. “Instead of storming the classroom, a decision was made to deploy a negotiator and to muster a more heavily armed and shielded tactical entry force.”

Bill Francis, a former FBI agent who was a senior leader on the bureau’s hostage rescue team for 17 years, told the Times that officials “made a poor decision defining that as a hostage-barricade situation” because “the longer you delay in finding and eliminating that threat, the longer he has to continue to kill other victims.”

Oh, and apparently a CITY cop had an AR-15 and a chance to shoot the gunman before he went in.... and didn't take it. (that's separate from the school resource officer who apparently drove right past the gunman in the parking lot)


A city police officer armed with an AR-15-style rifle hesitated when he had a brief chance to shoot the gunman approaching a school in Uvalde, Texas, because he did not want to hit children, according to a senior sheriff’s deputy who spoke to the officer.

The fateful decision, which has not been previously reported, represented the second missed opportunity for officers arriving at Robb Elementary School to prevent a massacre by intervening while the gunman was still outside the school. Officials have said that an officer from a different department, the Uvalde school district police force, arrived early but drove past the gunman, not seeing him in the parking lot of the school.


The quick arrival of several officers on May 24 reflected the speed with which the initial response took place, and contrasted sharply with what would become a protracted delay in finally confronting the gunman after he began shooting inside a pair of connected fourth-grade classrooms.





It also made clear the agonizing decisions law enforcement officers had to make as they confronted the gunman, who was firing shots outside the school; the officer who arrived with a rifle had only seconds to make a decision, and feared that firing his weapon could have meant hitting children, the senior sheriff’s deputy said.





Two teachers and 19 children were fatally shot after the gunman entered the school, and 11 were wounded, including a teacher.
The police response is now the subject of at least three investigations by the Texas Rangers, the U.S. Justice Department and a special committee of the Texas Legislature. A local district attorney has also been involved in the state’s investigation and has been handling media inquiries; she did not respond to a request for comment on the new details about the earliest stages of the police response.


The Texas Department of Public Safety, which includes the Rangers, referred questions to the district attorney. The Uvalde Police Department, whose officer was said to have had line of sight on the gunman, did not respond to a request for comment.





The chair of the legislative committee, Dustin Burrows, said the department had not made any of its officers available to provide testimony but on Friday had promised to do so. The committee met in Uvalde on Thursday and Friday but heard from witnesses behind closed doors.





A central focus of the inquiries has been the one hour and 17 minutes that elapsed from the time the gunman entered the classrooms and began shooting at 11:33 a.m. until a team of Border Patrol agents and a sheriff’s deputy from Zavala County entered the rooms and killed the gunman at 12:50 p.m.
The investigations are now showing that several officers arrived at the school before the gunman ever went inside, rushing to the scene after the first 911 calls around 11:29 a.m. reported that a truck had crashed near the school and that its driver was outside shooting.
At least two law enforcement cars arrived in close succession at the school, according to investigatory documents reviewed by The New York Times. One was driven by an officer from the small police force that patrols Uvalde’s schools. Another arrived less than a minute later, at 11:32 a.m., with officers from the Uvalde Police Department.
At that point, the gunman was still shooting outside of the school.
Officials have said he was firing at the building and toward a nearby funeral home, but arriving officers believed in the moment that the gunfire was directed at them, said Chief Deputy Sheriff Ricardo Rios of Zavala County, who also responded to the shooting in the neighboring county.
“My understanding, after talking to several officers that were there, was that the gunman engaged two City of Uvalde officers when they got there, outside the building,” Chief Deputy Rios said.





He said the two officers, including one with the long gun, took cover behind a patrol car. They wanted to return fire, he said, but held off.



Chief Deputy Rios, recounting his conversation with one of the officers, said that he was surprised and replied with a blunt question.





“I asked him, ‘Why didn’t you shoot? Why didn’t you engage?’ And that’s when he told me about the background,” he said. “According to the officers, they didn’t engage back because in the background there was kids playing and they were scared of hitting the kids.”
In one of the initial 911 calls, at 11:29 a.m., a caller told dispatchers about the gunfire outside and also that there were children running, according to the documents. It was not clear where those children were or if there were others in the line of fire in those first minutes.
The chief deputy sheriff said that any attempt to shoot the moving gunman would have been difficult, and that the officer would undoubtedly have faced harsh criticism and possibly even a criminal investigation had he missed and hit a bystander in the distance, especially a child.
 

glenlogie

Well-known member
They never even tried to open the doors to the classrooms

That whole thing about trying a bunch of keys out and waiting for more keys? Yeah, never once were the keys tried on the door to the classrooms where the shooter was. No, instead they were being tested on some other door in the school to try to find a 'master key'.

This all while the entire time having access to and possession of a halligan bar which could have easily allowed them to get through the door without any key.




Oh, and apparently a CITY cop had an AR-15 and a chance to shoot the gunman before he went in.... and didn't take it. (that's separate from the school resource officer who apparently drove right past the gunman in the parking lot)

Failure of the police.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
And now the city is trying to prevent the release of body cam footage and other records (like officer manuals, training guides, policies, etc.) to the public.
www.kvue.com/article/news/special-reports/uvalde-school-shooting/uvalde-legal-help-robb-elementary-shooting-investigation-texas/273-d44240af-68b3-4a41-af9f-1cb30596b763?fbclid=IwAR0ITrcPSsvn16PzHvbULPryK280DPTHWAqT6xdjOG3AtXU4JZClJWS6XMw

Uvalde Hires Private Law Firm to Argue It Doesn’t Have to Release School Shooting Public Records


Some of the records relating to the Robb Elementary School shooting could be “highly embarrassing,” involve “emotional/mental distress,” and are “not of legitimate concern to the public,” the lawyers argued.

The City of Uvalde and its police department are working with a private law firm to prevent the release of nearly any record related to the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School in which 19 children and two teachers died, according to a letter obtained by Motherboard in response to a series of public information requests we made. The public records Uvalde is trying to suppress include body camera footage, photos, 911 calls, emails, text messages, criminal records, and more.

“The City has not voluntarily released any information to a member of the public,” the city’s lawyer, Cynthia Trevino, who works for the private law firm Denton Navarro Rocha Bernal & Zech, wrote in a letter to Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton. The city wrote the letter asking Paxton for a determination about what information it is required to release to the public, which is standard practice in Texas. Paxton's office will eventually rule which of the city's arguments have merit and will determine which, if any, public records it is required to release.

The letter makes clear, however, that the city and its police department want to be exempted from releasing a wide variety of records in part because it is being sued, in part because some of the records could include “highly embarrassing information,” in part because some of the information is “not of legitimate concern to the public,” in part because the information could reveal “methods, techniques, and strategies for preventing and predicting crime,” in part because some of the information may cause or may "regard … emotional/mental distress," and in part because its response to the shooting is being investigated by the Texas Rangers, the FBI, and the Uvalde County District Attorney.

The letter explains that Uvalde has at least one in-house attorney (whose communications it is trying to prevent from public release), and yet, it is using outside private counsel to deal with a matter of extreme importance and public interest. Uvalde’s city government and its police department did not immediately respond to a request for comment from Motherboard.

The city says that it has received 148 separate public records requests (including several from Motherboard), and has lumped all of them together, making a broad legal argument as to why it should not be required to respond to many of them. Earlier this week, Motherboard reported on a similar letter sent to Paxton by the Texas Department of Public Safety, which wanted to suppress body-camera footage because it could expose “weaknesses” in police response to crimes that criminals could exploit. (The main seeming weakness in the Uvalde response was that police, in violation of standard policy and protocol, refused to risk their lives to protect children.)

For example, the city and its police department argue that it should be exempted from releasing “police officer training guides, policy and procedure manuals, shift change schedules, security details, and blueprints of secured facilities,” because these could be used to decipher “methods, techniques, and strategies for preventing and predicting crime.” The Uvalde Police Department and Texas Department of Public Safety have been pilloried by the press and the public for standing in the hallway while a gunman killed children—against standard protocol—and for preventing parents from entering the building to save their children. The letter also argues that the department should be exempted from releasing body camera footage simply because it could be “information considered to be confidential by law, either constitutional, statutory, or by judicial decision.”

It is impossible to say what records, in particular, the city and the police are referring to in many parts of the letter. For example, it says it cannot release an individual's criminal history because it would be "not of legitimate concern to the public," because it could be "highly embarrassing," and because it would violate their common-law right to privacy. But the letter does not talk about who the records would be about, why they wouldn't be relevant to the public, or why they would be highly embarrassing.

“They claim that the compilation of individuals’ criminal history is highly embarrassing information, which is a strange cover. The embarrassing information is the inept police response,” Christopher Schneider, a professor of sociology at Brandon University who studies police body cameras and the disclosure of footage from them, told Motherboard, noting that suspects' criminal histories are released by the police all the time without anyone having requested them. “They have no problem using information like that against individuals of the public. The information disclosure needs to go both ways, if that’s the case.” Disciplinary or criminal records for members of the police, for example, would be obviously relevant public information in a case in which the police response has been highly criticized. "It’s rather ripe to say any of this is not of legitimate public concern," he added. "The whole country is trying to figure out how to not allow this to happen again."

This is a relatively common sort of argument, but it shows yet again that the deck is stacked against the public disclosure of public records when they are inconvenient or embarrassing to the police.

“The case that’s being made contains some particularly asinine stonewalling,” Schneider said. “It seems like the city is throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks, and seeking a ruling to suppress this information from being released.”

Schneider says that lumping together all 148 public records requests, and asking for a legal ruling on everything at once, seems like a tactic to prevent the release of anything and everything.

“It appears that they’re conflating all of the information requests as a justification to not release the stuff we should be seeing. If it’s an officer’s email to his wife, yeah, we don’t need to see this. But the body-worn camera footage is of concern. They’re conflating all of this information together to suppress the legitimate stuff,” he said.

In his research, Schneider said that body-worn cameras often do not do what they’re supposed to do, which is hold police accountable to the public. This is because public records laws are often written in such a way as to provide wide latitude to police to decide what the public actually gets to see, and allows them to “regain control of the narrative” when it is convenient for them.



“It’s not a coincidence journalists run into this problem [of not being able to obtain body camera footage] over and over again,” Schneider said. “The law is by design, the privacy rules are by design to make it absolutely as difficult as possible to release the information.”
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
And now the city is trying to prevent the release of body cam footage and other records (like officer manuals, training guides, policies, etc.) to the public.
www.kvue.com/article/news/special-reports/uvalde-school-shooting/uvalde-legal-help-robb-elementary-shooting-investigation-texas/273-d44240af-68b3-4a41-af9f-1cb30596b763?fbclid=IwAR0ITrcPSsvn16PzHvbULPryK280DPTHWAqT6xdjOG3AtXU4JZClJWS6XMw

 

BMS

Well-known member
There is no mercy.
They repent, they go to heaven; they don't, they go to hell.

And no prayer of yours can do anything about it.

What does this do?
Does it alleviate their suffering in any way?

No.
I am saying that in countries where handguns may not be owned by the general public, the likelihood of them having died in the first place would have been drastically reduced.

Preventing future deaths.

I don't see the point of praying for the dead when they are dead (and, in your paradigm, their eternal destination has already been decided).
God has made the way to heaven through Jesus sounds like mercy to me.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
They never even tried to open the doors to the classrooms

That whole thing about trying a bunch of keys out and waiting for more keys? Yeah, never once were the keys tried on the door to the classrooms where the shooter was. No, instead they were being tested on some other door in the school to try to find a 'master key'.

This all while the entire time having access to and possession of a halligan bar which could have easily allowed them to get through the door without any key.




Oh, and apparently a CITY cop had an AR-15 and a chance to shoot the gunman before he went in.... and didn't take it. (that's separate from the school resource officer who apparently drove right past the gunman in the parking lot)

So it gets worse.

Latest reporting based on video reveals that the gunman walked into the classroom from the hall without a key - the classroom door was unlocked.

We're talking "schoolhouse locksets" here and it's important how they work.

Using a key from the outside, you can "set" the lock to be either locked both for ingress and egress, or locked so that egress is always possible, but ingress is stopped.
You have to have a key to set that locked or unlocked condition.

Apparently, after the gunman went inside the classroom, there is no indication whatsoever that he did anything to lock the door, and locking from the inside is not an option.

So....... the cops were in the hallway for over an hour stopped by an unlocked door.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
Keeping an ear on the special committee hearing, the guy going over the timeline just said that the chief is on bodycam saying that the shooter has an AR-15 and is 'shooting all over'.

Recall the chief claimed he thought it was a barricade situation and not an active shooting. I'm unsure what could possibly be more of an active shooting than 'shooting all over'.


Also sounds like multiple exterior doors were set to be unlocked all the time, not just the one the teacher had gone out. And confirmed the classroom doors were never locked. They SAT OUTSIDE FOR AN HOUR outside an UNLOCKED DOOR
 

Thistle

Well-known member
Keeping an ear on the special committee hearing, the guy going over the timeline just said that the chief is on bodycam saying that the shooter has an AR-15 and is 'shooting all over'.

Recall the chief claimed he thought it was a barricade situation and not an active shooting. I'm unsure what could possibly be more of an active shooting than 'shooting all over'.


Also sounds like multiple exterior doors were set to be unlocked all the time, not just the one the teacher had gone out. And confirmed the classroom doors were never locked. They SAT OUTSIDE FOR AN HOUR outside an UNLOCKED DOOR
This is so upsetting it's depressing even to comment on it.
 

Gondwanaland

Well-known member
THREE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY SIX

That's how many officers were on scene at Uvalde

Uvalde report: 376 officers but ‘egregiously poor’ decisions


Nearly 400 law enforcement officials rushed to a mass shooting at a Uvalde elementary school, but “egregiously poor decision-making” resulted in more than an hour of chaos before the gunman who took 21 lives was finally confronted and killed, according to a damning investigative report released Sunday.

The nearly 80-page report was the first to criticize both state and federal law enforcement, and not just local authorities in the South Texas town for the bewildering inaction by heavily armed officers as a gunman fired inside two fourth-grade classrooms at Robb Elementary School, killing 19 students and two teachers.

Altogether, the report amounted to the fullest account to date of the one of the worst school shootings in U.S. history. But it did not satisfy all parents and relatives of the victims, some of whom blasted the police as cowards and called for them to resign.

“At Robb Elementary, law enforcement responders failed to adhere to their active shooter training, and they failed to prioritize saving innocent lives over their own safety,” the report said.

The gunman fired approximately 142 rounds inside the building — and it is “almost certain” that at least 100 shots came before any officer entered, according to the report, which laid out in detail numerous failures. Among them:

— No one assumed command despite scores of officers being on the scene.

— The commander of a Border Patrol tactical team waited for a bullet-proof shield and working master key for the classroom, which may have not even been needed, before entering the classroom.

— A Uvalde Police Department officer said he heard about 911 calls that had come from inside the classroom, and that his understanding was the officers on one side of the building knew there were victims trapped inside. Still, no one tried to breach the classroom.

The report — the most complete account yet of the hesitant and haphazard response to the May 24 massacre — was written by an investigative committee from the Texas House of Representatives. Swiftly, the findings set in motion at least one fallout: Lt. Mariano Pargas, a Uvalde Police Department officer who was the city’s acting police chief during the massacre, was placed on administrative leave.

Uvalde Mayor Don McLaughlin said an investigation would be launched to determine whether Pargas should have taken command of the scene. McLaughlin also said the city would now release all body camera footage from Uvalde police that was taken during the shooting.

McLaughlin said “a couple, maybe three” officers have left the force since the shooting, and that suicides are “a big concern.”

Family members of the victims in Uvalde received copies of the report Sunday before it was released to the public.

“It’s a joke. They’re a joke. They’ve got no business wearing a badge. None of them do,” Vincent Salazar, grandfather of 11-year-old Layla Salazar, who was among those killed, said Sunday.

Only the families of the victims were invited to meet with committee members before a news conference with the media following the public release of the report.

Tina Quintanilla-Taylor, whose daughter survived the shooting, shouted at the committee members as they left the news conference, saying that they should have taken questions from the community, not just reporters. “I’m pissed. They need to come back and give us their undivided attention,” she said later.

“These leaders are not leaders,” she said.

According to the report, 376 law enforcement officers massed at the school. The overwhelming majority of those who responded were federal and state law enforcement. That included nearly 150 U.S. Border Patrol agents and 91 state police officials.

“Other than the attacker, the Committee did not find any ‘villains’ in the course of its investigation,” the report said. “There is no one to whom we can attribute malice or ill motives. Instead, we found systemic failures and egregiously poor decision making.”

The report noted that many of the hundreds of law enforcement responders who rushed to the school were better trained and equipped than the school district police — which the head of the Texas Department of Public Safety, the state police force, previously faulted for not going into the room sooner.

Investigators said it was not their job to determine whether officers should be held accountable, saying that decisions rests with each law enforcement agency. Prior to Sunday, only one of the hundreds of officers on the scene — Pete Arredondo, the Uvalde school district police chief — was known to have been on leave.

“Everyone who came on the scene talked about this being chaotic,” said Texas state Rep. Dustin Burrows, a Republican who led the investigation.

Officials with the Texas Department of Public Safety and U.S. Border Patrol did not immediately return requests for comment Sunday.

The report followed weeks of closed-door interviews with more than 40 people, including witnesses and law enforcement who were on the scene of the shooting.

No single officer has received as much scrutiny since the shooting as Arredondo, who also resigned from his newly appointed seat on the City Council after the shooting. Arredondo told the committee he treated the shooter as “barricaded subject,” according to the report, and defended never treating the scene as an active-shooter situation because he did not have visual contact with the gunman.

Arredondo also tried to find a key for the classrooms, but no one ever bothered to see if the doors were locked, according to the report.

“Arredondo’s search for a key consumed his attention and wasted precious time, delaying the breach of the classrooms,” the report read.

The report criticized as “lackadaisical” the approach of the hundreds of officers who surrounded the school and said that they should have recognized that Arredondo remaining in the school without reliable communication was “inconsistent” with him being the scene commander. The report concluded that some officers waited because they relied on bad information while others “had enough information to know better.”

A nearly 80-minute hallway surveillance video released Sunday showed for the first time a hesitant and haphazard tactical response, which the head of Texas’ state police has condemned as a failure and some Uvalde residents have blasted as cowardly.

Calls for police accountability have grown in Uvalde since the shooting.

The report is the result of one of several investigations into the shooting, including another led by the Justice Department. A report earlier this month by tactical experts at Texas State University alleged that a Uvalde police officer had a chance to stop the gunman before he went inside the school armed with an AR-15.

But in an example of the conflicting statements and disputed accounts since the shooting, McLaughlin has said that never happened. That report had been done at the request of the Texas Department of Public Safety, which McLaughlin has increasingly criticized and accused of trying to minimize the role of its troopers during the massacre.


Steve McCraw, the head of Texas DPS, has called the police response an abject failure.

The committee didn’t “receive medical evidence” to show that police breaching the classroom sooner would have saved lives, but it concluded that “it is plausible that some victims could have survived if they had not had to wait 73 additional minutes for rescue.”

Michael Brown, whose 9-year-old son was in the cafeteria at Robb Elementary on the day of the shooting and survived, came to the committee’s news conference Sunday carrying signs saying “ We Want Accountability” and “Prosecute Pete Arredondo.”

Brown said he has not yet read the report but already knows enough to say that police “have blood on their hands.”

“It’s disgusting. Disgusting,” he said. “They’re cowards.”
Can't emphasize that last statement enough.

The shooter, not even taking into account the fact that he already used some to kill the kids and teachers (IIRC he fired around half of the rounds he had), had 316 rounds inside with him when he entered the classroom.

He couldn't have even killed every officer on scene if he'd tried, even if he made perfect one-shot kills somehow.
 

Authentic Nouveau

Well-known member
So it gets worse.

Latest reporting based on video reveals that the gunman walked into the classroom from the hall without a key - the classroom door was unlocked.

We're talking "schoolhouse locksets" here and it's important how they work.

Using a key from the outside, you can "set" the lock to be either locked both for ingress and egress, or locked so that egress is always possible, but ingress is stopped.
You have to have a key to set that locked or unlocked condition.

Apparently, after the gunman went inside the classroom, there is no indication whatsoever that he did anything to lock the door, and locking from the inside is not an option.

So....... the cops were in the hallway for over an hour stopped by an unlocked door.
That is why these killers like gun free schools and zones. Gives them more time to work.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers,
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
..
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​
yes, we all pray for them, but prayers will not stop the carnage. We need legislation.
We need to stop the proliferation of ever more powerful weapons sold with little to no oversight to people with no reason to own such deadly weapons.
We have leglistation on the books
hasn't done a bit of good, not one iotta
Lk.21:24
........ until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations
, with perplexity;
the sea and the waves roaring;
perplexity
inability to deal with or understand something complicated or unaccountable:
a complicated or baffling situation or thing:

Posters
these things will continue to happen
until ........ the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
 
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BMS

Well-known member
Malachi 4:4
Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel,
with the statutes and judgments.

5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers,
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.


Remember ye the law of Moses my servant,
..
lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.​

We have leglistation on the books
hasn't done a bit of good, not one iotta
Lk.21:24
........ until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars;
and upon the earth distress of nations
, with perplexity;
the sea and the waves roaring;
perplexity
inability to deal with or understand something complicated or unaccountable:
a complicated or baffling situation or thing:

Posters
these things will continue to happen
until ........ the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Amen. Outstanding.
 

Buzzard

Well-known member
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:

6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children,
and the heart of the children to their fathers,


Not one word there about the Mothers

1Tim.5:8​
But if any provide not for his own,
and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith,
and is worse than an infidel.​

Dead Beat Dads beware
"A Man that won't support his children
is worse than an infidel"

Think about it;
what is the #1 Problem in western civilization
especially the USA

Dead beat Dads, unwed mothers, single parent families
Live in boy friends, or just "Friends with benefits"
Children turned over too the "Nammy State"
and the list goes on and on and on
 
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