1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

HealTheLand

Active member
Mt 23:37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

I believe Calvinists have a strange take on this verse which robs it of the point you are showing, But maybe someone will check in on this

made in His image... if we look at this at what it is saying - about a hen, and it wanting to - gather her young... keeping in mind we are made in His image - how we would feel ... wanting to gather together our children - and raise them right, and keep them in the right ways... right ways of living - which we try to teach them.
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
There are three groups in play here:
1) Jesus;
2) "Jerusalem" (ie. the Pharisees);
3) "your children" (ie. the Jews).

There are only 4 groups (God, Jesus, Jerusalem, the Jews) in play in this verse. Jesus is lamenting over Jerusalem and the children of Jerusalem
Jesus wanted to gather the Jews, but the Pharisees were the ones who "were not willing".
No, God over the centuries has sent prophets to bring the children of Jerusalem back to himself and they have always resisted him. Even now the children of Jerusalem (the scribes and pharisees) are resisting another prophet that God has sent to them, even Jesus.
The "hen" is not the same as her "brood".
And "Jerusalem" is not the same as "your children".
God is metaphorically "the hen" in this scripture who continually attempts to gather together his chicks but they refuse to return to Him.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
There are only 2 groups in play in this verse. Jesus is lamenting over Jerusalem and the children of Jerusalem

Please quote the portion of v.37 where Jesus is referring to the "children" in the second person.
(I won't hold my breath.)

(Btw, the above is an example of "command does not imply ability".)
 

HealTheLand

Active member
Please quote the portion of v.37 where Jesus is referring to the "children" in the second person.
(I won't hold my breath.)

(Btw, the above is an example of "command does not imply ability".)

why all this needed, instead of listening to the Holy Spirit - who reveals all things to those who listen......

any who listen and hear - what He is really saying... not what we might choose/believe for Him to say?
 
Last edited:

Theo1689

Well-known member
why all this needed, instead of listening to the Holy Spirit - who reveals all things to those who listen......

any who listen and hear - what He is really saying, not what we might choose/hope/believe for Him to say?

If what you teach is not found in Scripture, then what you're listening to is NOT "the Holy Spirit".
 

Caroljeen

Well-known member
Please quote the portion of v.37 where Jesus is referring to the "children" in the second person.
(I won't hold my breath.)
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus is speaking to Jerusalem and the "your (second person) children" is Jerusalem's children.
The "you (second person)" were not willing in that metaphor in bold refers to Jerusalem's children

You can breathe now. :)

(I don't have time to read all the posts.)
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
On what basis do you call my explanation "biased"?
Do you consider your own understanding "biased"?

Do you believe "you" and "your children" refer to the same group, or different groups?
At my work, I work with many colleagues, but I don't work with their children.
They are clearly different groups.



So you think I'm "parroting" something?
Again, thank you for the insulting assumption.
You are wrong, of course.
But what is the basis for your false assumption?
Are you claiming that this interpretation in Matt 23 came ffrom your own study, or did you hear this interpretation and agree
 

Synergy

Well-known member
There are three groups in play here:
1) Jesus;
2) "Jerusalem" (ie. the Pharisees);
Jerusalem is Jerusalem, the city of Jerusalem. To make the word Jerusalem synonymous with Pharisees is revisionism at its most blatant level. With your way of thinking then the New Jerusalem in Revelation is the New Pharisees. This is just too hilarious!
3) "your children" (ie. the Jews).
The children of Jerusalem is the children of Jerusalem. Can we stop with the revisionism already?
Jesus wanted to gather the Jews, but the Pharisees were the ones who "were not willing".
Jesus wanted to gather all the children of Jerusalem but they were not all willing.
The "hen" is not the same as her "brood".
And "Jerusalem" is not the same as "your children".
The Hen is Jesus.
 

HealTheLand

Active member
If what you teach is not found in Scripture, then what you're listening to is NOT "the Holy Spirit".

it might be like when we are listening to other people - especially online, but in person too. you might have had this experience... you speak from what you mean/intend and then others respond... but you can tell right away that they did not understand /get at all (or only in part) what you were saying. it can be frustrating... having to explain again and try another, yet another way to get through to them - to their mind... so removed / different than yours. and we hope that the next explanation gets through. but it doesn't always.

this is like God... trying through the words of the Bible to get through to you, to me, to whomever the meanings would be able to get through to, and help, and change, and guide us.... save us.... . but His thoughts are not our thoughts... not if we 'take' them, understand them wrong, put different things together in various ways - from His words - that He was only trying to reach us with, convey things with, help us by -- not trying to divide or cause us to have to become real smart and studied to understand, and not trying to cause theologies and sects, different groups and dogmas and doctrines... endless and divided -- forever on end - but to reach us - to speak to us... to help us, to guide to us --

home -- where He is -- with Thoughts much Higher -- than ours -- Perfection, Holiness, Wholeness, Wisdom and all Truth.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often have I desired to gather your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!

Jesus is speaking to Jerusalem and the "your (second person) children" is Jerusalem's children.
The "you (second person)" were not willing in that metaphor in bold refers to Jerusalem's children

Sorry, but "your children" is THIRD person, not "second person".

The pronoun you would use to replace "your children" is "them":

"How often have I desired to gather [them]".

You can breathe now. :)

I already told you that I wasn't going to hold my breath, since I knew you wouldn't be able to demonstrate it.

(I don't have time to read all the posts.)

And that's why your posts are worthless.
You also haven't read Scripture where Paul does not suffer a woman to teach.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Are you claiming that this interpretation in Matt 23 came ffrom your own study, or did you hear this interpretation and agree

Well.... Maybe you should have STARTED with that question, instead of the snarky and inisulting assumption that I was simply "parrotting".

Yes, it came from my own study.
The grammar is very straightforward. No other interpretation is grammatically possible.
That's why your misinterpretion shows your theological bias.
 

David1701

Well-known member
Well.... Maybe you should have STARTED with that question, instead of the snarky and inisulting assumption that I was simply "parrotting".

Yes, it came from my own study.
The grammar is very straightforward. No other interpretation is grammatically possible.
That's why your misinterpretion shows your theological bias.
Amen. It's very clear.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
You're the only one engaging in "revisionism".
So only you can "stop" doing it.
No, the "you" (ie. the Pharisees) were not willing.
Revisionism according to you is to say Jerusalem is Jerusalem?!?! Seriously?!?! So with your way of thinking you're looking forward to the New Jerusalem Pharisees in Revelation?!?!? Can another Reformer jump in to help Theo's position or is it a lost cause for Reformers?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Revisionism to you is to say Jerusalem is Jerusalem?!?! Seriously?!?! So with your way of thinking you're looking forward to the New Jerusalem Pharisees in Revelation?!?!? Can another Reformer jump in to help Theo's case or is it a lost cause for Reformers?

Nobody was talking about "New Jerusalem".
Straw-man much?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
I'm just applying your logic to the Bible and this is what I get: New Jerusalem Pharisees. Do you seriously want to go ahead with the ramifications of your logic?

It's not "[my] logic".
It's YOUR logic.

I deny the insane notion that words are used in the EXACT same way every time they're used in Scripture. The fact that most terms have multiple definitions disproves your idea. The meaning of terms is determined by CONTEXT.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
It's not "[my] logic".
It's YOUR logic.

I deny the insane notion that words are used in the EXACT same way every time they're used in Scripture. The fact that most terms have multiple definitions disproves your idea. The meaning of terms is determined by CONTEXT.
So your theology dictates when Jerusalem is synonymous with Pharisees and when it is not. And everyone who does not ascribe to that is "insane". I see.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So your theology dictates when Jerusalem is synonymous with Pharisees and when it is not.

No, SCRIPTURE dictates the context.

And everyone who does not ascribe to that is "insane". I see.

Not what I said.

I said that the idea that "New Jerusalem" (which is NOT the context of Matt. 23, btw) allegedly means "New Pharisee" is insane.

Please stop twisting my words.
 
Top