1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

fltom

Well-known member
I just wanted to point out that the above is nothing but worthless rhetoric, it's nothing but a cop-out.
Rather the real copout is your refusal to engage with a number of arguments




I mean, I'm sure the poster sincerely believes it, but it is nothing but an excuse to believe that there's a reason we reject their theology, other than the fact that their theology and interpretations are wrong. You see, they can't admit that their interpretations are wrong, so they have to come up with another excuse to claim why we reject their theology, and their interpretations still be right.

You have not proven our interpretations wrong

It's rather funny how you often refuse to engage arguments but want to claim them wrong

and expect us to admit to error when you have failed to prove error

It's a classic case of projection you have their Theo
 

fltom

Well-known member
So you think I'm you're slave, and am forced to answer all your stupid questions?
Why do you keep bullying and harassing me?
No I think you are one who makes excuses whenever you are unable to defend your theology

There you go again responding to your initiative is bullying and harrassing you

Sorry but that dog does not hunt
 

Rockson

Well-known member
Ah you are one of those. People who prefer to focus on typos and avoid actual discussion
still thanks for the correction.
I've often wondered about people doing this if they'd stumble and not be able to accept God speaking to them through a very simple and uneducated vessel....like the blind man in John 9 who was blind from birth probably illiterate and yet he spoke with such wisdom which rocked the leaders....

“Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. John 9 :30

Guess maybe that's what the typo focus people fall into doing. Missing the real points and cast people out.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
I've often wondered about people doing this if they'd stumble and not be able to accept God speaking to them through a very simple and uneducated vessel....like the blind man in John 9 who was blind from birth probably illiterate and yet he spoke with such wisdom which rocked the leaders....

“Why, this is a marvelous thing, that you do not know where He is from; yet He has opened my eyes! Now we know that God does not hear sinners; but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does His will, He hears him. Since the world began it has been unheard of that anyone opened the eyes of one who was born blind. If this Man were not from God, He could do nothing.”They answered and said to him, “You were completely born in sins, and are you teaching us?” And they cast him out. John 9 :30

Guess maybe that's what the typo focus people fall into doing. Missing the real points and cast people out.
theswe discussions are challenging and sometimes they provoke the worst in us. But many of us strive to be loving and strive to accurately handle the Word of God.
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Dr. Rob Plummer is a Greek scholar. He's written a grammar, he teaches Greek, and he has a daily video called, "Daily Dose of Greek", where he spends a couple of minutes each day parsing and translating a verse of the New Testament each day.

He's already gone through 1 John, and the page with the 1 John 5 verses translated can be found here:

Since his videos are intended to help keep students' translating skills sharp, he concentrates more on translation, but he does occasionally refer to interpretational nuances as they appear. As he translates "γεγεννηται" ("has been born"), he points out that it is in the perfect passive indicative, and contrasts that with "every one who is believing" being in the present tense.

In fact, at the one minute mark he states:

"Notice the shift in tenses here. We have the present, the person who believes, who evidences current belief, HAS been born, perfect tense, from God."

So Dr. Plummer thinks the shift in tenses (from completed past action, to present tense) is significant here. Further, he points out that "has been born" is passive, it is not something we do, it is something done to us.
Superb post my brother in Christ! Very edifying for our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We need more of this knowledge to keep growing in God's word. Those antagonists who disagree with this, will do everything to attempt to distort and pervert it because it nullifies their position of Free-Will; that all sinners possess the Free-Will Adam had before the Fall. Only God can and has redeemed sinners by His Grace Alone! To say otherwise is the serpent speaking.
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
Superb post my brother in Christ! Very edifying for our brothers and sisters in the Lord. We need more of this knowledge to keep growing in God's word. Those antagonists who disagree with this, will do everything to attempt to distort and pervert it because it nullifies their position of Free-Will; that all sinners possess the Free-Will Adam had before the Fall. Only God can and has redeemed sinners by His Grace Alone! To say otherwise is the serpent speaking.
Since it is God who provides us the faith then "free" will is non-existent! God bless you.
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
First of all, sorry for the delayed response. I came across this after someone recently posted to it, and started reading through it again. Apparently I read your post back when you posted but chose not to respond to it, but reading it again today something prompted a response in my mind.

Address the points. No need to get your feathers ruffled.
If you do not, then I will assume you cannot.

This rude attitude and triyng to goad me into responding by threatening to claim I can't respond to it likely had something to do with my choice not to respond to you originally, but I'll let it slide for today.

Let's just make this clear, okay? I don't have to respond to you or anyone, if I don't want to. And you do NOT have the right to try to "force" me into a discussion by falsely claiming I "cannot", if I choose not to reply. That's just plain rude, and I have a very difficult time understanding how someone can CLAIM to be a Christian and yet act in this way.

S.T.Ranger said:
I don't see that this is what Jesus tells Nicodemus in John 3. Would you point out in John 3 where exactly the Lord states that being born again precedes believing?

First of all, unlike others, I'm not going to assume you've never read the Bible. I'm going to assume you've read the Bible, and that you know very WELL that Jesus never said that to Nicodemus. So you're being INCREDIBLY disingenuous, and you are (sadly) not coming to the table in good faith. But this is also a red herring, since there is no NEED for Jesus to have taught him that. That's theology, and not the gospel. And too many people either don't understand the difference, or else they ignore it.

But I thank you because your loaded question prompted a quick Bible study that I appreciated, and would like to share with others here.

John 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Verse 12 gets quoted a lot in these discussions, but they usually leave out v. 13, cutting John off mid-sentence, which is rude to say the least. And especially since the two verses together relate "believing" with being "born".

It is important to note that "believe" here is a present participle. I'm guessing it was rendered past tense in the ESV because it is the present continuous state of "believing", not a one-time act. (I just checked, and the NET, HCSB, and NASB all render "believe" in the present tense, in accordance with the Greek.)

"[W]ere born" is a perfect participle, which denotes a completed past action with enduring effects into the present. So "were born" is being placed chronologically PRIOR to "believing", according to the verb tenses. If one wanted to believe that believing came prior to being born, one would expect "belief" to be in the perfect, and "born" to be in the present, the exact opposite of what we see in the text, or at least have both in the past, even if this last option is ambiguous. John seemingly wrote this in the WORST possible way if belief truly came before being born again.

And what puts in the nail in the coffin is that John EXPLICITLY emphasizes that being born of God was NOT based on "the will of man", which it certainly WOULD be if it was caused by a "free will" decision to "believe".

At this point, we can continue on to the exchange with Nicodemus.
Let's compare how the passage TRULY reads, with how "Free-willers" WANT it to read:
.
Bible (i.e. Calvinism)​
"Free-will-ism"​
John 3:1 Now there was a man
of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man
came to Jesus by night and said
to him, “Rabbi, we know that you
are a teacher come from God, for
no one can do these signs that you
do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly,
I say to you, unless one

is born again
he cannot see the
kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus
said to him, “How can a man
be
born
when he is old? Can he enter
a second time into his mother’s
womb and
be born?” 5 Jesus
answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one
is born of water and
the Spirit, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God.
6 That which
is born of the flesh is flesh, and

that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that
I said to you, ‘
You must be
born again
.’ 8 The wind blows
where it wishes, and you hear
its sound,
but you do not know
where it comes from or where
it goes
. So it is with everyone
who is
born of the Spirit.”
John 3:1 Now there was a man
of the Pharisees named Nicodemus,
a ruler of the Jews.
2 This man
came to Jesus by night and said
to him, “Rabbi, we know that you
are a teacher come from God, for
no one can do these signs that you
do unless God is with him.”

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly,
I say to you, unless one

believes, he cannot see the
kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus
said to him, “How can a man
believe
when he is old? Can he enter
a second time into his mother’s
womb and
believe?” 5 Jesus
answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you,
unless one is born of water and

believes, he cannot enter the
kingdom of God.
6 That which
is born of the flesh is flesh, and
that which is born of the Spirit
is spirit.
7 Do not marvel that
I said to you, ‘
You must
believe
.’ 8 The wind blows
where it wishes, and you hear
its sound,
but you do know
when you choose to believe.

it goes. So it is with everyone
who is born of the Spirit.”
.
Isn't it interesting that Jesus doesn't preach like a "free-willer" at all.
Instead of telling Nicodemus to "believe" (an action he can presumably do), Jesus instead tells him, over and over again, "you must BE BORN again", a PASSIVE act done TO a man by someone else, namely by the Holy Spirit.

This is beginnig to get long, and you asked specifically about Jesus and Nicodemus, so I'll end her for now. Perhaps I'll continue this at another time.
 
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Ladodgers6

Well-known member
Since it is God who provides us the faith then "free" will is non-existent! God bless you.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but classical Calvinism do teach that sinners have a free-will per se, because nobody forcing or coerces sinners to sin! They sin willingly, understand? All sinners are now children of disobedience following the course of the air, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So, now sinner's will is in bondage to sin, because this is now their passions and desires! This is why Paul says, we are dead in our trespasses and sin, because by NATURE we are children of wrath!

So I ask you what must happen to us to free us from this fallen condition? Sinners have futile minds, and hearts of stone, right? Sinners are now children of disobedience following Satan. So, a divine act of Grace from God is needed, and without it, nobody would have faith to believe and follow God. So God sends his Holy Spirit to make alive while we were dead in sin, and makes us alive in Jesus, to believe and follow him. Because God removes our hearts of stone, and renews our minds! This is his doing called by Grace Alone!​
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, but classical Calvinism do teach that sinners have a free-will per se, because nobody forcing or coerces sinners to sin! They sin willingly, understand? All sinners are now children of disobedience following the course of the air, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

So, now sinner's will is in bondage to sin, because this is now their passions and desires! This is why Paul says, we are dead in our trespasses and sin, because by NATURE we are children of wrath!

So I ask you what must happen to us to free us from this fallen condition? Sinners have futile minds, and hearts of stone, right? Sinners are now children of disobedience following Satan. So, a divine act of Grace from God is needed, and without it, nobody would have faith to believe and follow God. So God sends his Holy Spirit to make alive while we were dead in sin, and makes us alive in Jesus, to believe and follow him. Because God removes our hearts of stone, and renews our minds! This is his doing called by Grace Alone!​
However, Christiane with the indwelling Holy Spirit can be under the law of sin and death and give into the carnal mind. We must learn to walk in the Spirit wherein we have spiritual life and spiritual empowerment to believe and trust God and to do his will. We have the flesh lusting against the Spirit and the Spirit lusting against the flesh. We want to please God but the flesh wants to please self. We are either a slave of the flesh or a slave of righteousness. Where is the free will in that? We need God's grace and mercy continually while we overcome the world so we can enter into the kingdom after we overcome the carnal mind. We have volition but we need God's spiritual influence. We can not walk independently with God. We are truly helpless without God.

God bless you. :)
 

Ladodgers6

Well-known member
However, Christiane with the indwelling Holy Spirit can be under the law of sin and death and give into the carnal mind. We must learn to walk in the Spirit wherein we have spiritual life and spiritual empowerment to believe and trust God and to do his will. We have the flesh lusting against the Spirit and the Spirit lusting against the flesh. We want to please God but the flesh wants to please self. We are either a slave of the flesh or a slave of righteousness. Where is the free will in that? We need God's grace and mercy continually while we overcome the world so we can enter into the kingdom after we overcome the carnal mind. We have volition but we need God's spiritual influence. We can not walk independently with God. We are truly helpless without God.

God bless you. :)
You are curved inward on yourself, seeking validation by your works, instead of resting and believing in God who justifies the ungodly who do not work but trust and believe in God Alone!

Romans 4:4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes ina him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

God sent his Son on a mission to rescue his people from their sins! It's by Christ and his works that we are saved. This is our hope, assurance, our life, our redeemer! It's by his works that we are clothed in pure white robes! It's by his blood that cleanses all our of sins and are washed away forever! I want Gospel, not Law! The only hope for a sinner is in the Gospel not in the Law. This is what Paul is teaching and preaching in Romans and Galatians!!!

Free-Will, your suggestions that God drags people kicking and screaming against their wills, is delusional. Sinners made alive by God come forth willingly. They are not forced to come. Read Scripture it's there.
 

SeventhDay

Well-known member
You are curved inward on yourself, seeking validation by your works, instead of resting and believing in God who justifies the ungodly who do not work but trust and believe in God Alone!

Romans 4:4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes ina him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:


7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

God sent his Son on a mission to rescue his people from their sins! It's by Christ and his works that we are saved. This is our hope, assurance, our life, our redeemer! It's by his works that we are clothed in pure white robes! It's by his blood that cleanses all our of sins and are washed away forever! I want Gospel, not Law! The only hope for a sinner is in the Gospel not in the Law. This is what Paul is teaching and preaching in Romans and Galatians!!!

Free-Will, your suggestions that God drags people kicking and screaming against their wills, is delusional. Sinners made alive by God come forth willingly. They are not forced to come. Read Scripture it's there.
No, I am not seeking validation for my works! Your post is correct and I teach the same. Do not come to quick conclusion with my posts. If you are not sure what I mean please ask me! God bless you. :)
 
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