1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
So I would agree faith follows believing,

That's a nonsense statement.
You will not find such a nonsensical statement anywhere in the Bible.
It's like saying, I walked and then after that I had a walk.
No, you had a walk WHILE you walked, they're referring to the SAME thing.

Words have meaning, Theo.

According to your approach we can equally say "Devils have faith."

Is that your position, that devils have faith?


God bless.


 

Howie

Well-known member
So you are saying that atheists do not believe at all?

I would have to disagree with that because I see that God gives revelation to those that fall outside of the sphere of His direct revelation. Gentiles, for example, during the Age of Law. Gentiles who received revelation from God, the Law (His will) written on their hearts, and a judgment dependant on how they responded to that revelation.


Romans 2:10-16 King James Version

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



If the doers of the Law perform the works of the Law written on their hearts, does this not say they will be justified?

They aren't believers. They do not have faith. They do not have The Faith.

Neither did Abraham, his belief centered on salvation through what he thought would be his seed, hence he was willing to produce an heir through Hagar.

Abraham was justified in a temporal context and died not receiving the Promise. His eternal destiny was secured through his belief and faith.

Belief that God would give him an heir, and faith to slay that son because his son had to be alive for the Promise to be realized.

Now, back to atheists: as I said I believe all men receive revelation from God. I think it likely in this Age that all receive the convicting ministry of the Comforter and that His ministry is specific to enlightening the natural mind to the Gospel, but I am not dogmatic, and allow that it is very possible there are men who grow up and live their lives without ever hearing a valid Gospel presentation. What some people post in forums seems to justify that allowance.

However, we can say for certain and be dogmatic that there are those who die and never get the chance to hear the Gospel and believe: murdered infants in the womb, for example. Young children. Those who are mentally impaired.

Do we say "Well if they are elect they will be saved and if they aren't, well, they will go to Hell?"

I don't think so: not a single Old Testament Saint had the Mystery of the Gospel unveiled to them yet their eternal destinies are certain. The Faith had not yet come, but they had faith because they believed God and responded to the revelation they received.

They believed despite not having The Faith.

At the risk of making this post longer than most will care to read, one more passage:


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not
to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


(See the LINK)

These men knew. We cannot nullify an aspect of belief, because there is an association implied that this knowledge wasn't something they acquired on a street corner one day.


Romans 1:28-32 King James Version

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who
knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


They had knowledge of God but rebelled against it, thus God gave them over to a reprobate mind.

They knew the judgment of God—but rejected it.

So can atheists believe and not have faith, or The Faith—of course they can.

Devils believe, and tremble.

Or do you think devils have faith?


God bless.
As a rule, atheists don't believe, that's why they are called atheists ...

Also, Romans 8:7-8 makes the necessity of regeneration prior to faith vety clear.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
The Comforter is going to being conviction of sin to all unbelievers,

I think that's a misnomer, since He is not "Comforting" any unbelievers.

Sorry, that should have said "bring" instead of being. Sometimes I don't catch what auto-correct is doing.

Apparently, you do not understand what it means for God to be the "Comforter," so I will try to explain this a bit:



John 14:15-18 King James Version

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you
another...Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



There are two links there for you, I separated them in an attempt to make that clear to the reader.

And I would point out that when He is sent Jesus states "I will come to you." This is an important statement when we try to understand Who the Comforter is and what it is He will do.

Why is the Comforter, the Spirit of Truth, "another" Comforter?

Because Jesus Christ was the current Comforter, the One that was with them at the time of the teaching:


Luke 2:25-26 King James Version

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting
for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.



(See LINK)

As you rightly pointed out, one is walking when one goes on a walk. So too, the Comforter "comforts."

Doesn't necessarily mean that the "comforting" is very comforting: "Woe unto ye that are rich, for you have received your consolation."

So do we see this Comforter that Christ teaches will come similar to the Consolation of Israel? I'd say yes, because both performed a similar ministry. The Lord enlightened men to truth and with the Word of Truth brought about judgment on the hearts of those He ministered to. So too with the Comforter:


John 16:7-9 King James Version

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



Did Jesus the Consolation of Israel only minister to the elect? No.

In fact, despite the fact that He was sent unto the Lost Sheep of Israel only He ministered to Gentiles and Samaritans as well.

The point is, that the Comforter performs the convicting ministry on unbelievers. If you want to say that He does so only for the Elect, you have that right, but you aren't going to support that with Scripture.

Again, those who reject the Knowledge of the Truth, who do not like to retain God in their memory, will be held accountable to God for the very reason that they did know.

That is just a basic Bible Principle we see throughout Scripture and in every Age.

Pharoah heard the will of God and he hardened his heart against God's will. He would not have been guilty if God's will had not first been delivered to him.

And just to be clear, I am not, in any way, saying the natural man has an inherent ability in his natural condition. The natural man cannot receive nor perceive the spiritual things of God. They are dependent on God to enlighten their minds so that they have the opportunity to respond.


God bless.






 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
As a rule, atheists don't believe, that's why they are called atheists ...

Also, Romans 8:7-8 makes the necessity of regeneration prior to faith vety clear.

I am presenting my view and would be very happy for you to oppose it and present the Scripture you refer to.

God bless.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
but not all unbelievers will respond to the Ministry,

... because God doesn't give them faith.

No, because they reject the truth.

And they that reject the ministry of the Comforter will be judged more severely than those who rejected Moses' Law (God's will as formalized in the Covenant of Law):


Hebrews 10:26-29 King James Version

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



In view are the counterparts of those who reject Christ, His Blood, His Covenant, and the Spirit of Grace. Those who rejected God's will under the Law as delivered to them by Moses.

Why a more severe punishment?

Because of the revelation they are responding to. Because they are not rejecting type, figure, shadow, parable, or pictorial prophecy: they are rejecting Jesus Christ Himself.

Remember I said "I will come to you" is important? It is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost that is delivering the revelation of the Gospel Mystery to the hearts of men in this Age.

They aren't rejecting God's will delivered through Moses for temporal provision, they are rejecting God Himself speaking directly to them of Eternal Provision.

The Basic Principle of varying degrees of guilt is seen in Judgment throughout Scripture.


God bless.


 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Address the points. No need to get your feathers ruffled.

There are no "points" for me to address.
First of all, you post random Scriptures without any exegesis, which is a waste of your time and mine. I don't need you to help me read Scriptures, I've studied them for decades.

Secondly, all you do is ask "questions". Questions are not valid arguments. And I would respectfully suggest that if you don't know the answers, then you have no business copping an attitude here.

And finally, you refuse to accept correction. "Pistis" and "pisteuo" refer to the same thing, and if you refuse to accept that, then we are at am impasse.


If you do not, then I will assume you cannot.

I see you're another one of those with a huge chip on his shoulder, goading people into arguments, and proclaiming a false "victory" if people can't be bothered with your nonsense.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
God gave the gift of Life to those who believed.

Do they become sheep because they believe?
Or do they believe because they are Christ's sheep?:

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

It's a given that those who do come to believe are sheep.

Just as it is a given that only the Elect will be saved, lol.

They are elect because their eternal destinies are known to God, as they are. That doesn't equate to a dogmatic position that God will withhold the revelation for which He will hold them accountable to.


God bless.


 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
There are no "points" for me to address.
First of all, you post random Scriptures without any exegesis, which is a waste of your time and mine. I don't need you to help me read Scriptures, I've studied them for decades.

Secondly, all you do is ask "questions". Questions are not valid arguments. And I would respectfully suggest that if you don't know the answers, then you have no business copping an attitude here.

And finally, you refuse to accept correction. "Pistis" and "pisteuo" refer to the same thing, and if you refuse to accept that, then we are at am impasse.




I see you're another one of those with a huge chip on his shoulder, goading people into arguments, and proclaiming a false "victory" if people can't be bothered with your nonsense.

I have a chip on my shoulder because I seek to goad you into further discussion?

There are several points already for you to respond to, and I will just give you one for now:

Do devils have faith?

;)


God bless.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member

S.T.Ranger said:
So, to make a long story short (I know, too late), Regeneration is dependent on one receiving the Gospel and believing it.

That is 100% completely unBiblical.
You will not find any passage ANYWHERE that teaches that regeneration is "dependent on", and "follows" believing.

So the demand to believe is meaningless?


Acts 16:29-31 King James Version

29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.



Did this man recognize that God was with Paul and Silas?

What is it that this man expresses when he asks what he must do to be saved?

Is the salvation he seeks eternal or temporal?


1 John 5:13 King James Version

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.



John seems to think that his writing will help people to believe.

Do you think John's writing was unnecessary?

Why write to people if what he writes will have no impact? How is detailed instruction not beneficial to the hearer/reader?


God bless.

 

Theo1689

Well-known member
So the demand to believe is meaningless?

Questions are not valid arguments.

Did this man recognize that God was with Paul and Silas?

Questions are not valid arguments.

What is it that this man expresses when he asks what he must do to be saved?

Questions are not valid arguments.

Is the salvation he seeks eternal or temporal?

Questions are not valid arguments.

Do you think John's writing was unnecessary?

Questions are not valid arguments.

Why write to people if what he writes will have no impact?

Questions are not valid arguments.

How is detailed instruction not beneficial to the hearer/reader?

Questions are not valid arguments.
 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
S.T.Ranger said:
I happen to agree with the statement: it's obvious that one born again is a believer, we simply aren't going to have one who is born again that isn't a believer.

As Dr. Plummer pointed out, our believing is the EVIDENCE that we have (already) been regenerated/born again.

Again, that is a given: because only those that believe are born of God.

All those that are born of God believe.

I will have to wait until I finish this post before I can know if you answered my question, but in the meantime I will ask again: do devils have faith?


God bless.


 

S.T.Ranger

Well-known member
Questions are not valid arguments.

Perhaps. But they are an exceptional training tool. And that is what makes you respond with emotion instead of reasoned argument: you cannot be taught anything, because you know everything, right?

Your position/s are the right way, and if someone has an opposing view they are infidels, Right?

Just respond to the points and Scripture. This is a debate forum, so how about doing a little debating?


God bless.
 
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