1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

[Synergy]

Dr. Rob Plummer is a Greek scholar. He's written a grammar, he teaches Greek, and he has a daily video called, "Daily Dose of Greek", where he spends a couple of minutes each day parsing and translating a verse of the New Testament each day.

He's already gone through 1 John, and the page with the 1 John 5 verses translated can be found here:

1 John 5 Greek Readings | Daily Dose of Greek

In an effort to help you master New Testament Greek, we read 1 John 5 in one 2-minute video per verse. Enjoy!

dailydoseofgreek.com

Since his videos are intended to help keep students' translating skills sharp, he concentrates more on translation, but he does occasionally refer to interpretational nuances as they appear. As he translates "γεγεννηται" ("has been born"), he points out that it is in the perfect passive indicative, and contrasts that with "every one who is believing" being in the present tense.

In fact, at the one minute mark he states:

"Notice the shift in tenses here. We have the present, the person who believes, who evidences current belief, HAS been born, perfect tense, from God."

So Dr. Plummer thinks the shift in tenses (from completed past action, to present tense) is significant here. Further, he points out that "has been born" is passive, it is not something we do, it is something done to us.

Everyone who believes in Christ has been born of God. Belief is not confined only to the present. You can still believe a second, a month, a decade ago. You can even believe into the future.

Therefore in this discussion, the tenses are not as significant as to what is the cause and what is the effect. Whoever believes is born of God. Here, the cause is clearly belief and the effect is born of God. Belief precedes birth.

 

[Theo1689]

The cause is clearly belief and the effect is born of God. Belief precedes birth.

This is unBiblical.
And you probably know that, since you didn't even try to provide Scriptural support.

 

[Theo1689]

Everyone who believes in Christ has been born of God. Belief is not confined only to the present. You can still believe a second, a month, a decade ago. You can even believe into the future.

Therefore in this discussion, the tenses are not as significant as to what is the cause and what is the effect.

Translation: When the verb tenses contradict our theology, we can ignore them.

Funny thing how Arminians depend on tenses to try to prove that faith precedes regeneration.
Cherry-pick much?

, the cause is clearly belief and the effect is born of God. Belief precedes birth.

"You keep using dat word. I don't t'ink it means what you t'ink it means."
-- Inigo Montoya

 

[Synergy]

This is unBiblical.
And you probably know that, since you didn't even try to provide Scriptural support.

Are you seriously disputing that belief is not confined only to the present? Seriously? You are disputing that you can still believe a second, a month, a decade ago, and that you need biblical proof? Wow! Reformers are willing to bend reality in order to appease their doctrines at all costs.

 

[Theo1689]

Are you seriously disputing that belief is not confined only to the present? Seriously?

No.
I'm seriously disputing your arbitrary, self-serving, and anti-Biblical attempt to project faith prior to regeneration.

You are disputing that you can still believe a second, a month, a decade ago, and that you need biblical proof? Wow! Reformers are willing to bend reality in order to appease their doctrines at all costs.

Personal attack duly noted.

What I asked Biblical proof for is your claim that faith precedes, and causes, regeneration.
Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension before you start throwing out insults.
Just sayin'.

Merely claiming it's "clear" is not valid proof.

 

[Synergy]

No.
I'm seriously disputing your arbitrary, self-serving, and anti-Biblical attempt to project faith prior to regeneration.




Personal attack duly noted.

What I asked Biblical proof for is your claim that faith precedes, and causes, regeneration.
Maybe you should improve your reading comprehension before you start throwing out insults.
Just sayin'.

Merely claiming it's "clear" is not valid proof.

So, can we have it on record that belief can be past, present, and future? Or is that too much to ask of a Reformer?

 

[Theo1689]

So, can we have it on record that belief can be past, present, and future? Or is that too much to ask of a Reformer?

Would you mind losing the attitude?

Belief can be past, following regeneration...
Belief can be present, following regeneration...
Belief can be future, following regeneration...

Why do you keep dodging the issue?

 

[fltom]

This is unBiblical.
And you probably know that, since you didn't even try to provide Scriptural support.

actually it is quite biblical

1 Corinthians 4:15 (KJV 1900) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

Paul had begotten the Corinthians through the gospel

How did he do so

read his own words

1 Corinthians 15:1–11 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

James tells us

James 1:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

and Peter

1 Peter 1:23–25 (KJV 1900) — 23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

of course non belief in the gospel produces nothing

Hebrews 4:2 (KJV 1900) — 2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

so it is through faith in the gospel one is regenerated

 

[ReverendRV]

<snip>

Therefore in this discussion, the tenses are not as significant as to what is the cause and what is the effect. Whoever believes is born of God. Here, the cause is clearly belief and the effect is born of God. Belief precedes birth.

🤔

Would you say that Sola Scriptura suggests they are?

 

[fltom]

🤔

Would you say that Sola Scriptura suggests they are?

No

The verse is speaking of the current life of faith describing the characteristic of one born of God not how one first came to be born of God

 

[Synergy]

Would you mind losing the attitude?

Belief can be past, following regeneration...
Belief can be present, following regeneration...
Belief can be future, following regeneration...

Why do you keep dodging the issue?

You have not proven any of your 3 assumptions. You just stated what you've been indoctrinated to say.

Now, let's focus in on and analyze 1 John 5:1. Whoever believes in God (A) is born of God (B). In other words, whoever is A is B. What you're trying to do is to force 1 John 5:1 in saying B proceeds and causes A. The verse simply does not do that. Reformer revisionism will not stand.

 

[Theo1689]

You have not proven any of your 3 assumptions. You just stated what you've been indoctrinated to say.

"Indoctrinated"?
Why must you constantly be so insulting?
It was the BIBLE and the Holy Spirit who convinced me of my beliefs.
If you consider that "indoctrinated", you have a problem.

Mow, let's focus in on and analyze 1 John 5:1. Whoever believes in God (A) is born of God (B).

Wrong. Whoever believes in God (present) HAS BEEN BORN (past tense) of God.

In other words, whoever is A is B. What you're trying to do is to force 1 John 5:1 in saying B proceeds and causes A. The verse simply does not do that. Reformer revisionism will not stand.

You have not proven that faith precedes and "causes" regeneration.
YOUR "indoctrination" will not stand.

 

[David1701]

You have not proven any of your 3 assumptions. You just stated what you've been indoctrinated to say.

Now, let's focus in on and analyze 1 John 5:1. Whoever believes in God (A) is born of God (B). In other words, whoever is A is B. What you're trying to do is to force 1 John 5:1 in saying B proceeds and causes A. The verse simply does not do that. Reformer revisionism will not stand.

It is: Everyone who believes (present tense), has been born of God (Greek perfect tense, denoting something that happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present). Apply that to the first moment of faith and you will see clearly that having been born of God precedes faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Theo1689]

It is: Everyone who believes (present tense), has been born of God (Greek perfect tense, denoting something that happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present). Apply that to the first moment of faith and you will see clearly that having been born of God precedes faith in Jesus Christ.

1John 2:29 ... everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Or maybe our practicing righteousness "causes" our regeneration?

1John 4:7 ... and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Or maybe our loving others "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,

Or maybe our believing "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

Or maybe our overcoming the world "causes" our regeneration?

 

[fltom]

1John 2:29 ... everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Or maybe our practicing righteousness "causes" our regeneration?

1John 4:7 ... and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Or maybe our loving others "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,

Or maybe our believing "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

Or maybe our overcoming the world "causes" our regeneration?

all describe truths about the one born again

Not one of them is discussing how one was born of God

 

[Synergy]

"Indoctrinated"?
Why must you constantly be so insulting?
It was the BIBLE and the Holy Spirit who convinced me of my beliefs.
If you consider that "indoctrinated", you have a problem.

What caused you to insert the word "following" into the passage?

Wrong.

It's wrong to say that whoever believes in God is born of God?!? Tell me how that can possibly be wrong.

Whoever believes in God (present) HAS BEEN BORN (past tense) of God.

That's correct. So now it's established that you can be both born of God in both the past and present sense. In summary, belief can be past, present, and/or future and born of God can be past and/or present. These facts causes your tense argument to crash and burn.

You have not proven that faith precedes and "causes" regeneration.

I see that you have a propensity to revise other people's words. I never said faith precedes regeneration. I said belief precedes regeneration.
Also, I never said that faith causes regeneration. Regeneration is a gift of the Holy Spirit to those who believe and repent.

YOUR "indoctrination" will not stand.

Here are just 2 examples of many:

Mark 1:15: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
That's when Christ exhorted everyone to repent and believe as the way into the Kingdom. In other words, belief precedes entering into the Kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Here, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given out only to those who repent (a total turnaround of belief).

 

[Synergy]

It is: Everyone who believes (present tense), has been born of God (Greek perfect tense, denoting something that happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present). Apply that to the first moment of faith and you will see clearly that having been born of God precedes faith in Jesus Christ.

Everyone has a capacity to believe Christ or not. See what I wrote above about Mark 1:15. This knocks the hard and fast rule of regeneration before belief off its moorings. The gift of Faith, on the other hand, is a gift from God for those who repent and believe.

 

[ReverendRV]

Everyone has a capacity to believe Christ or not. See what I wrote above about Mark 1:15. This knocks the hard and fast rule of regeneration before belief off its moorings. The gift of Faith, on the other hand, is a gift from God for those who repent and believe.

Synergy, that sounds turned around to me...

 

[fltom]

It is: Everyone who believes (present tense), has been born of God (Greek perfect tense, denoting something that happened in the past, with the result continuing in the present). Apply that to the first moment of faith and you will see clearly that having been born of God precedes faith in Jesus Christ.

all that says is being born again precedes the current life of faith

John is extoolling the characteristics on one who is bornn again in a number of verses

They are not stating how one is born again

if you want to see that

It is through faith in the gospel

James 1:18 (AV) — 18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.

1 Peter 1:18–21 (AV) — 18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, 21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

1 Corinthians 4:15 (AV) — 15 For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.

 

[Synergy]

Synergy, that sounds turned around to me...

Please explain.