1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Everyone has a capacity to believe Christ or not. See what I wrote above about Mark 1:15. This knocks the hard and fast rule of regeneration before belief off its moorings. The gift of Faith, on the other hand, is a gift from God for those who repent and believe.
Okay, I'll explain...

Shouldn't people Believe before they Repent?
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Here are just 2 examples of many:

Mark 1:15: “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
That's when Christ exhorted everyone to repent and believe as the way into the Kingdom. In other words, belief precedes entering into the Kingdom of God.

Acts 2:38: "Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Here, the gift of the Holy Spirit is given out only to those who repent (a total turnaround of belief).

Neither of those verses even MENTIONS regeneration.
Care to try again?
 

David1701

Well-known member
Everyone has a capacity to believe Christ or not. See what I wrote above about Mark 1:15. This knocks the hard and fast rule of regeneration before belief off its moorings. The gift of Faith, on the other hand, is a gift from God for those who repent and believe.
Oh boy!

Belief is faith is belief is faith. They are synonyms. The same Greek word can be translated either "believe", or "have faith", with no difference in the meaning.

In the NT faith/belief (regarding salvation) is more than mere acceptance of the truth of something; it is a living, loving, trusting relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The unregenerate person has no capacity for this at all; in fact, his nature is diametrically opposed to it. He is hostile towards God (Rom. 8:7,8); he hates the Light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20 - contrast this with the one who is born again, verse 21); and he rejects the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Okay, I'll explain...

Shouldn't people Believe before they Repent?
Excellent question. I think, and I'm definitely no expert here, that repenting and belief are inextricably joined together. To believe is to repent of one's old evil ways. To repent is to believe the truth and no longer evil lies.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Excellent question. I think, and I'm definitely no expert here, that repenting and belief are inextricably joined together. To believe is to repent of one's old evil ways. To repent is to believe the truth and no longer evil lies.
That sounds good, but let me press a little more. Perhaps Repentance and Belief are Conjoined Twins; which was born first? I say that Belief is born before Repentance...

Do you agree?
 
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fltom

Well-known member
John 6:44, 10:26, among other verses refute your position.
NOWHERE does the Bible teach "everyone has a capacity to believe Christ".
All that is needed is revelation before a man can believe unless previously hardened

John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Romans 10:17 (KJV 1900) — 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 20:31 (KJV 1900) — 31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

1 Corinthians 15:1–11 (KJV 1900) — 1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

etc
 

Synergy

Well-known member
That sounds good, but let me press a little more. Perhaps Repentance and Belief are Conjoined Twins which was born first? I say that Belief is born before Repentance...

Do you agree?
That's very hard to say. Jesus mentioned Repent before Believe and I'm sure He had his reasons. I'll leave it at that.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
VelThat's very hard to say. Jesus mentioned Repent before Believe and I'm sure He had his reasons. I'll leave it at that.
Fair enough, you win...

I was going somewhere with you. I was going to ask you if Belief in the Truth comes before Faith?

I think it did for me...
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Neither of those verses even MENTIONS regeneration.
Care to try again?
Jesus told Nicodemus, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” (John 3:3). Regeneration and the Kingdom of God are intertwined together. To see the Kingdom of God you must be regenerated. Therefore, belief and repentance precede regeneration/Kingdom of God.

Do you care to try again?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
Oh boy!

Belief is faith is belief is faith. They are synonyms. The same Greek word can be translated either "believe", or "have faith", with no difference in the meaning.
James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!"

According to your "belief is faith" opinion, the demon belief mentioned in James 2:19 is faith! Oh boy!
In the NT faith/belief (regarding salvation) is more than mere acceptance of the truth of something; it is a living, loving, trusting relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ.
The unregenerate person has no capacity for this at all; in fact, his nature is diametrically opposed to it.
Romans 2:15 says otherwise. Everyone has been given a conscience that he/she is accountable for.
He is hostile towards God (Rom. 8:7,8); he hates the Light and will not come to it (John 3:19,20 - contrast this with the one who is born again, verse 21); and he rejects the things of the Spirit of God (1 Cor. 2:14).
Those are people who live according to the flesh. That means that they have seared their conscience and tossed out whatever good God has gifted to them. They were gifted with the tools to believe God (their God-given minds, for one) but they squandered them.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
For me, belief and repentance definitely came before faith. For sure!
I agree...


You say Belief can be different from Faith; and also say here that Belief comes before Faith. How does Belief in the Truth develop when the Bible says we cannot understand the things of God?

I'll give you my answer; it is by the power of the prevening Grace of God. Do you agree that Grace precedes Faith too? I do...

I also think that God's Grace precedes Belief in the Truth, which precedes our Faith. Since the things of God are Spiritually Understood, do you agree? Isn't it true that if you don't need Grace first, that you understand via your Graceless, Prevenient Discernment?
 
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Synergy

Well-known member
I agree...


You say Belief can be different from Faith; and also say here that Belief comes before Faith. How does Belief in the Truth develop when the Bible says we cannot understand the things of God?
Before regeneration, belief develops primarily through one's conscience and one's mind (Romans 2:15-16), both gifts from God. This is a foretaste of what lies ahead and one has to decide which path to take. Only after one is regenerated is one initiated into the Kingdom of God (or things of God, as you put it) (John 3:3).
I'll give you my answer; it is by the power of the prevening Grace of God. Do you agree that Grace precedes Faith too? I do...
I believe Grace is at all times present. Whether before, during, or after regeneration, Grace is always present. I don't mind if you put a fancy adjective like "prevenient" on Grace. That's ok but I think that it's common sense that everyone has been graced with a mind and conscience.
I also think that God's Grace precedes Belief in the Truth, which precedes our Faith. Since the things of God are Spiritually Understood, do you agree?
I agree.
Isn't it true that if you don't need Grace first,
I think one always needs Grace. We cannot do anything by one's self.
that you understand via your Graceless, Prevenient Discernment?
Discernment is a gracious gift from God and is never graceless.
 

ReverendRV

Well-known member
Before regeneration, belief develops primarily through one's conscience and one's mind (Romans 2:15-16), both gifts from God. This is a foretaste of what lies ahead and one has to decide which path to take. Only after one is regenerated is one initiated into the Kingdom of God (or things of God, as you put it) (John 3:3).

I believe Grace is at all times present. Whether before, during, or after regeneration, Grace is always present. I don't mind if you put a fancy adjective like "prevenient" on Grace. That's ok but I think that it's common sense that everyone has been graced with a mind and conscience.

I agree.

I think one always needs Grace. We cannot do anything by one's self.

Discernment is a gracious gift from God and is never graceless.
It seems we agree then; Belief exists through One's Conscience Mind; and this is the Prevenient Gift of God...

Isn't it true that no matter what we call God's Prevenient Gift, our Belief can never ever be Prevenient; since it is not of ourselves but is of the Gift?
 

fltom

Well-known member
It seems we agree then; Belief exists through One's Conscience Mind; and this is the Prevenient Gift of God...

Isn't it true that no matter what we call God's Prevenient Gift, our Belief can never ever be Prevenient; since it is not of ourselves but is of the Gift?
Who is believing for for if it is not of you?
 

Synergy

Well-known member
It seems we agree then; Belief exists through One's Conscience Mind; and this is the Prevenient Gift of God...

Isn't it true that no matter what we call God's Prevenient Gift, our Belief can never ever be Prevenient; since it is not of ourselves but is of the Gift?
The choice to believe the truth or not is of ourselves. That's our part and our responsibility but it's also part of God's Grace. God has graced us with the ability to choose truth or not.

If that doesn't answer your question then please explain the term "Prevenient" (it's new to me) and rephrase your question.
 
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