1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

fltom

Well-known member
Knowing God exists is knowledge, not faith. You can come to that conclusion, as many unbelievers have, from studying creation and realising that there must be a creator God, due to irreducible complexity in nature. This requires precisely zero faith.

Repentance is a change of mind, which requires a new nature if this change is to turn from sin to God, since the fallen nature loves sin and hates God. As far as I recall, Jesus always put repentance before faith, since a change of mind regarding sin and God is a pre-requisite for a trusting relationship (faith) with him.
repentance is unto life i.e. regeneration

Acts 11:18 (KJV 1900) — 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
 

Howie

Well-known member
Look again and see where he posted not of you

"Isn't it true that no matter what we call God's Prevenient Gift, our Belief can never ever be Prevenient; since it is not of ourselves but is of the Gift?"
I agree with him. Without faith in you, you must wait until faith is given you to excercise the faith.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I agree with him. Without faith in you, you must wait until faith is given you to excercise the faith.
you ignored the point

the not of you

if it is not your faith whose faith is it

if its not you believing who is believing for you
 

Howie

Well-known member
you ignored the point
I read and understood what RevRV said
the not of you
You and I went through this the other day. Grace and all of salvation is, ouk ek humon, not outta you! It's all a gift, not of works.

if it is not your faith whose faith is it
When God gives the sinner the gift of faith, to whom does the faith belong?

if its not you believing who is believing for you
See above. The sinner believes.
 

fltom

Well-known member
I read and understood what RevRV said

You and I went through this the other day. Grace and all of salvation is, ouk ek humon, not outta you! It's all a gift, not of works.


When God gives the sinner the gift of faith, to whom does the faith belong?


See above. The sinner believes.
Sorry unless someone is believing for you by proxy the believing is of you
 

fltom

Well-known member
Grace and faith are components of salvation, thus, by grace, have been ssved, through faith are ouk ek humon, "not out of you." Eph 2:8
God supplies the grace

you have to supply the faith

The salvation is not of you

The faith has to be of you or you are not saved
 

Howie

Well-known member
God supplies the grace

you have to supply the faith

The salvation is not of you

The faith has to be of you or you are not saved
I've been over this with more than one times.

Please, believe whatever you'd like to believe.
 

Synergy

Well-known member
You don't understand.

Firstly, this (Jas. 2:19) is only belief in the fact that there is one God. This has never saved anyone.

Secondly, words have a semantic range. As an example, "I believe so.", could mean anything from unwavering conviction, to mild opinion and everything in between.

Thirdly, none of this changes the fact that, as I stated, belief and faith are synonyms and are used to translate the same Greek word.
So then your "belief is faith" argument falls by the way side. There can be a difference between belief and faith. That accounts for the fact that the everyone (unregenerate people included) has the capacity to believe as Jesus demonstrated in Mark 1:15.
Here is what I posted, to which the above was your response, "In the NT faith/belief (regarding salvation) is more than mere acceptance of the truth of something; it is a living, loving, trusting relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. The unregenerate person has no capacity for this at all; in fact, his nature is diametrically opposed to it."

Here is Rom. 2:11-16 (MKJV)
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as sinned without Law will also perish without Law. And as many as have sinned within Law shall be judged through Law.
13 For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when the nations, who do not have the Law, do by nature the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves;
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and the thoughts between one another accusing or even excusing one another,
16 in a day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

This is, as everyone can see clearly, about being judged according to your works; either by law, or by conscience (if you are ignorant of God's law). It is only unbelievers who are judged in this way and all are guilty before God. Notice also that even doing what is according to your conscience won't help you (not that anyone does this perfectly anyway), because whatever is not of faith is sin, in God's eyes.

The above passage is nothing to do with salvation by grace through faith, except to show the need for it, so it is in no way an answer to what I posted.
I never said that this is a passage for grace through faith. What Romans 2:15 does get across is that the unregenerate man is not at a total loss for believing God. He does have his conscience that can guide him towards choosing to follow God.
This fiction, pure and simple. I'm not surprised that you have been unable to provide any scriptural evidence for it.
Stop calling the Bible fiction.

If you would just look 2 verses before the passages you recommended (Rom 8:7,8), you would have seen that I was right when I said that "those are people who live according to the flesh":

5 Those who live according to the flesh have their minds set on what the flesh desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires.
6 The mind governed by the flesh is death, but the mind governed by the Spirit is life and peace.
7 The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8 Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.

My point still stands. Those are people who live according to the flesh. That means that they have seared their conscience and tossed out whatever good God has gifted to them. They were gifted with the tools to believe God (their God-given minds, for one) but they squandered them.
 

fltom

Well-known member
If He determines all things and all means all right ? 2+2 is 4 even where you are going yo school
The bible does not say God determines all things

in fact it lists things God did not determine

James 1:13-14; 1John 2:16; Jer 32:35; Isa 30:1; Gal 5:7-8; 1Cor 14:33; 1Cor 10:13
 

Reformedguy

Well-known member
The bible does not say God determines all things

in fact it lists things God did not determine

James 1:13-14; 1John 2:16; Jer 32:35; Isa 30:1; Gal 5:7-8; 1Cor 14:33; 1Cor 10:13
It does not say I did not determine this. Lol

Ephesians 1:11 "who works all things according to His will" . All still mean all??
 

TibiasDad

Well-known member
1John 2:29 ... everyone who practices righteousness has been born of him.

Or maybe our practicing righteousness "causes" our regeneration?

1John 4:7 ... and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.

Or maybe our loving others "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:1 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God,

Or maybe our believing "causes" our regeneration?

1John 5:4 For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

Or maybe our overcoming the world "causes" our regeneration?
... ὁ μὴ πιστεύων τῷ Θεῷ ψεύστην πεποίηκεν αὐτόν, ὅτι οὐ πεπίστευκεν...
...the one that is not a believer (present tense) has, and still is at this point in time, made God to be a liar (perfect tense) because he has not and continues to not believe (perfect tense)....

Not believing is the cause of God being made a liar. God is made to be a liar because we do not presently believe. The act of not believing is the grammatical precedent and foundational condition of the result of making God to be a liar.

Doug
 

fltom

Well-known member
It does not say I did not determine this. Lol

Ephesians 1:11 "who works all things according to His will" . All still mean all??
Read the verses it is only possible conclusion

James 1:13-14; 1John 2:16; Jer 32:35; Isa 30:1; Gal 5:7-8; 1Cor 14:33; 1Cor 10:13
 
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