1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

Reformedguy

Well-known member
No actually it does not

there are verses in the greek Septuagint and apocrypha were it lacks such

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.



Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,



The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:

Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,

And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Song of solomon also

Song of Solomon 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Draw me, we will run after thee: The king hath brought me into his chambers: We will be glad and rejoice in thee, We will remember thy love more than wine: The upright love thee.


if the drawing move them why would they have to run after the king




Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) to denote influence
And off he goes. I woukd swear were discussing John 6:44
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
Again you are ignoring crucial words in the verse like "unless"

Why must you be so insulting?
Nobody's ignoring the "unless".

What does it mean you cannot come unless?
It means once that condition id met, then you can come

What "condition"?
You do realize that the "drawing" is what GOD does, right?

In our natural unregenerated state, no man can come.
The "unless" is for those whom God "draws", which is regeneration.
And those who are drawn WILL be raised up at the last day.
So unless you want to claim they can be raised up without coming, that means that all who were drawn DID come (which is the natural meaning of the term "draw" in the first place).
 

Theo1689

Well-known member
No actually it does not

there are verses in the greek Septuagint and apocrypha were it lacks such

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.



Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,



The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner

I don't care about the biased opinions of "Brian Wagner".

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,
Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:
Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:
Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,
And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Well, as your buddy Johnny would say, "the exception is not the rule".
But even so, you haven't demonstrated that your proof-text is valid.

First of all, it's a translation of the Hebrew into Greek.
And since words in different languages don't have the exact same semantic domains, you can't draw conclusions as reliable as you would like. As an example, Pepsi (I think) used to have a motto, "It refreshes your spirit!". When translated into Japanese, it came out as "It brings your ancestors back from the dead!"

Secondly, not only have you not shown "drawn but didn't come", but it EXPLICITLY says the result will be complete, "thou SHALL be built".

Song of Solomon 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Draw me, we will run after thee: The king hath brought me into his chambers: We will be glad and rejoice in thee, We will remember thy love more than wine: The upright love thee.

That's an imperative, not an indicative.
So there was no actual "drawing" there.

But even so, the imperative itself STILL teaches the 100% efficacy of the drawing:

"Draw me, we WILL RUN AFTER thee".

I mean, do you even READ your "proof-texts" before posting them?
All you do is embarrass yourself.

Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) to denote influence

Again, Maccabees was written in Hebrew, not Greek.
And if you are too lazy to even quote the verse, that means you haven't even checked the context, and so there's nothing for me to have to address.
 
G

guest1

Guest
No actually it does not

there are verses in the greek Septuagint and apocrypha were it lacks such

The same Greek word for “drawn” is used in the LXX in Neh 9:30… (esdras 19:30) and that group of Israelites, though drawn by God to the opportunity to obey Him, did not do it.



Nehemiah 9:30 (YLT)

30 `And Thou drawest over them many years, and testifiest against them by Thy Spirit, by the hand of Thy prophets, and they have not given ear, and Thou dost give them into the hand of peoples of the lands,



The Hebrew word for “drawn” used in Neh 9:30 is also used in Hos 11:4-5, which again is showing that Israel was “drawn” by God with love to Himself, but they refused Him. Brian Wagner

Jeremiah 31:3–4 (KJV 1900)

3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying,

Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love:

Therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel:

Thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets,

And shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.

Song of solomon also

Song of Solomon 1:4 (KJV 1900) — 4 Draw me, we will run after thee: The king hath brought me into his chambers: We will be glad and rejoice in thee, We will remember thy love more than wine: The upright love thee.


if the drawing move them why would they have to run after the king




Helko is also used at 4Macc 14:13; 15:11(8) to denote influence
Correct as you refuted the nonsense
 

Theo1689

Well-known member

Let's try it one more time... (After all, this poster seems to revel in infinite repetition...)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Now, some people seem to think there is only one interpretation, or they may even say "it doesn't even NEED an 'interpretation' " (which is a ludicrous comment). They think that "drawing" is mere "enablement", as if drawing a sword allows the "sword" to come out of the sheath, or drawing a net of fish allows the "fish" to come to shore. And yes, they'll bring up the idea of sentience, as if that's the least bit relevant (it isn't).

But their (mis-)interpretation of v. 45 DESTROYS the meaning of v. 44, since if their interpretation were true, then v. 44 would instead have to read, "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is hear and learn!" But that's NOT what it says!

The CORRECT interpretation of v.45 is that Jesus is quoting from Isa. 54:13, describing HOW God will draw His people. He will draw them BY "being taught by God". Isa. 54 was not written to, or about Gentiles, it was written to Jews. And it even referenced the blessing to Noah and his family as the only chosen survivors of the flood, God's chosen people.

Now that we have seen that there are TWO ways of understanding v. 45 as it relates to v. 44, the reasonable one (Calvinism) and the destructive one "free will". But there is even more to consider. Let's go back a few verses...

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

We have another term describing what the Father does, "giving".
And "giving" sounds a LOT like what Jesus describes in v. 44, God giving people to the Son by drawing them, and them coming as a result of the drawing (ie. the standard understanding of the term, "draw"). In fact, this verse is VERY much parallel to v. 44:

37a All that the Father gives me will come to me,
44a No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

These two are actually somewhat complementary...
No one can come unles the Father draws him.
But all those who are drawn/given WILL come.
There are no, "drawn but do not come".

37b and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44b And I will raise him up on the last day.

And these are definitely parallel iterations of the same teaching.
Even Arminians are agreed that those who are raised up are the ones who (allegedly "choose" of their own Libertarian Free Will to) come.

Now, I will do something the Arminians NEVER do. I will consider the opposing viewpoint to see if it holds any water. (Spoiler alert: It doesn't.). Arminians can't admit that "giving" and "drawing" refer to the same action by God, so they have to claim they mean different things. Since one (giving) invariably leads to them coming, but the other (drawing) is claimed not to guarantee coming, they must be different. And the giving must happen before the drawing. So let's see what this gives us:

Arminianism:

1) God "draws" (everyone?) v. 44a
2) Some "choose" to "come" by "deciding" to hear and learn (v. 45)
3) God "gives" ALL those who "choose" back to Jesus (v. 37)
4) They will all be raised up, and not cast out (v. 37)

But wait! Thoes who chose have ALREADY "come" to Jesus. They "chose" to come. So why and how does God have them to give them (back) to the Son?

Arminianism (Rev. 1):

1) God "draws" (everyone?) v. 44a
2) Some "choose" to "come" by "deciding" to hear and learn (v. 45)
3) Jesus gives those who came to Him, back to the Father. (cit. needed?)
4 3) God "gives" ALL those who "choose" back to Jesus (v. 37)
5 4) They will all be raised up, and not cast out (v. 37)

Does this make sense to anyone?
Not to me...

And all the extra complexity is a sign of false doctrines being added to Scripture.
 

Alexander the adequate

Well-known member
Why must you be so insulting?
Nobody's ignoring the "unless".



What "condition"?
You do realize that the "drawing" is what GOD does, right?

In our natural unregenerated state, no man can come.
The "unless" is for those whom God "draws", which is regeneration.
And those who are drawn WILL be raised up at the last day.
So unless you want to claim they can be raised up without coming, that means that all who were drawn DID come (which is the natural meaning of the term "draw" in the first place).
give a succint definition of "unless" and make up a sentence that shows how it is used
 
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