1John 5:1 regeneration before faith

Why must you be so insulting?
Nobody's ignoring the "unless".



What "condition"?
You do realize that the "drawing" is what GOD does, right?

In our natural unregenerated state, no man can come.
The "unless" is for those whom God "draws", which is regeneration.
And those who are drawn WILL be raised up at the last day.
So unless you want to claim they can be raised up without coming, that means that all who were drawn DID come (which is the natural meaning of the term "draw" in the first place).
Yes God draws

He does so by revelation


John 6:45 (KJV 1900) — 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Thus those who believe the father believe Jesus

John 8:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
give a succint definition of "unless" and make up a sentence that shows how it is used

Why?
Do you reject the Merriam-Webster definition?
I'm not your secretary. If you need someone to look up definitions for you, hire yourself an assistant. If you want me to work for you, we're going to first have to discuss a salary.

If you have a point to make, use your words and make the point yourself.
I'm not interested in doing "chores" for you.
We've explained to you how we understand John 6:44, INCLUDING the part of "unless". SO unless you have a point you want to make, all you're doing is being unnecessariliy insulting.

The "unless" is the difference between those who are "drawn" (and who therefore come, since that is what "drawn" does), and those who are NOT "drawn".
 
John 8:47 (KJV 1900) — 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Thank you for this, as it refutes your view.
Being "of God" (by drawing/giving) comes PRIOR to "heareth God's words".
So "choosing" to hear is not how one BECOMES "of God."

As your verse teaches, those who are not of God cannot "hear".

Just as Scripture teaches elsewhere:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Those who were not appointed to eternal life, do not believe.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Those who are not (already) Christ's sheep, do not believe.

Kind of like John 6:44, "No one can come to me (ie. believe) unless the Father ... draws him".
 
Thank you for this, as it refutes your view.
Being "of God" (by drawing/giving) comes PRIOR to "heareth God's words".
So "choosing" to hear is not how one BECOMES "of God."

As your verse teaches, those who are not of God cannot "hear".

Just as Scripture teaches elsewhere:

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Those who were not appointed to eternal life, do not believe.

John 10:26 but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep.

Those who are not (already) Christ's sheep, do not believe.

Kind of like John 6:44, "No one can come to me (ie. believe) unless the Father ... draws him".
Good thing civic is here adding his 40 years of expertise on the topic.
 
Let's try it one more time... (After all, this poster seems to revel in infinite repetition...)

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me—

Now, some people seem to think there is only one interpretation, or they may even say "it doesn't even NEED an 'interpretation' " (which is a ludicrous comment). They think that "drawing" is mere "enablement", as if drawing a sword allows the "sword" to come out of the sheath, or drawing a net of fish allows the "fish" to come to shore. And yes, they'll bring up the idea of sentience, as if that's the least bit relevant (it isn't).

Seems Jesus believed it was enablement

John 6:65 (NIV) — 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He stated so on his commentary on John 6:44

Furether no lexixon imagines the drawing of God isc likev the drawing of amindless sword

W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1

• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].

• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].

• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].

• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)

• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].

• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]

• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]

When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether. Hence, the most accurate meaning of helkuo would be to draw – in the sense of God attracting and enabling people towards Christ. This fits perfectly with both chapter 6, and with 12:32, wherein all of the N.T. Greek lexicons and dictionaries collectively agree, removing any ambiguity or doubt to be considered. Of the theologians who have rendered John 6:44 to exclusively mean drag, they have demonstrated a clear lack of exegetical research and evidence to validate their conclusions. These individuals never appeal to multiple and varied lexical references; wherein, they consistently point to other verses (which we have previously cited) that categorically do not fit the context of John 6 and grossly violate the basic rules of grammar and syntax.

Further examination of the text brings us to the idea of God’s drawing upon men to be understood in the terms of irresistibility. The passage in question does not explicitly address this position, as it only states God’s will and action of drawing, without identifying the possibility of men being able to freely accept or reject God’s loving initiative to bring men unto Himself. A primary way to discover any insight into this investigation will be to see how helkuo is used in the Septuagint (LXX) in regards to YHVH’s past dealings with men in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T). We find in Nehemiah 9:30, “Many years you lasted (helkuo) with them and repeatedly warned them by Your Spirit by the hand of Your prophets, and they did not give ear…”3 The context of this passage within the LXX reveals that YHVH consistently drew and worked to bring Israel unto Himself, but they willfully resisted the helkuo. This gives us clear precedence that the gracious drawing of God can be and has been resisted by the will and actions of men. God could have made Israel irresistibly accept His drawing grace and force them to come and obey His voice, however Scripture demonstrates that He has sovereignly set His economy up to deal with mankind by their willful cooperation to either receive or reject His drawing and longsuffering patience to bring men to Himself.

The Hebrew word from which helkuo is derived, is “masak.” Like the Greek word for draw, it has many meanings based upon its’ context. However, when it comes to YHVH specifically dealing with men, we find the same pattern which helps us to understand why the Greek lexical renderings, each by consensus, posited a gracious drawing – as opposed to the idea of men being dragged into the kingdom of God. We see it used in a clear representation of YHVH’s grace being poured out in declaring,

“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore, I have drawn (masak) you with lovingkindness” (Jer. 31:3).

Brian R With Editing and correcting

But their (mis-)interpretation of v. 45 DESTROYS the meaning of v. 44, since if their interpretation were true, then v. 44 would instead have to read, "EVERYONE can come to me, all they have to do is hear and learn!" But that's NOT what it says!

The CORRECT interpretation of v.45 is that Jesus is quoting from Isa. 54:13, describing HOW God will draw His people. He will draw them BY "being taught by God". Isa. 54 was not written to, or about Gentiles, it was written to Jews. And it even referenced the blessing to Noah and his family as the only chosen survivors of the flood, God's chosen people.
In case you did not realize it you are echoing just what i stated

with revelation they can come as v45 shows

John 6:45 (NIV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Seems this revelation may come from the scriptures

John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

they did not believe Christ because they did not believe God


John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
 
Now that we have seen that there are TWO ways of understanding v. 45 as it relates to v. 44, the reasonable one (Calvinism) and the destructive one "free will". But there is even more to consider. Let's go back a few verses...

John 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

God was giving to Jesus those that were his

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

those who did not believe the Father naturally do not believe Jesus

You are assuming God gave to Christ men unconditionally selected

but that is not what the bible teaches
you have rejected the bibles teaching for that of your theology





We have another term describing what the Father does, "giving".
And "giving" sounds a LOT like what Jesus describes in v. 44, God giving people to the Son by drawing them, and them coming as a result of the drawing (ie. the standard understanding of the term, "draw"). In fact, this verse is VERY much parallel to v. 44:

37a All that the Father gives me will come to me,
44a No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him.

Again those that were the Fathers not men unconditionally selected

You just ignored who it was that was given and assumed unconditionality which is contrary to the bible
 
Seems Jesus believed it was enablement

John 6:65 (NIV) — 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He stated so on his commentary on John 6:44

Furether no lexixon imagines the drawing of God isc likev the drawing of amindless sword

W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1

• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].

• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].

• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].

• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)

• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].

• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]

• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]

When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether. Hence, the most accurate meaning of helkuo would be to draw – in the sense of God attracting and enabling people towards Christ. This fits perfectly with both chapter 6, and with 12:32, wherein all of the N.T. Greek lexicons and dictionaries collectively agree, removing any ambiguity or doubt to be considered. Of the theologians who have rendered John 6:44 to exclusively mean drag, they have demonstrated a clear lack of exegetical research and evidence to validate their conclusions. These individuals never appeal to multiple and varied lexical references; wherein, they consistently point to other verses (which we have previously cited) that categorically do not fit the context of John 6 and grossly violate the basic rules of grammar and syntax.

Further examination of the text brings us to the idea of God’s drawing upon men to be understood in the terms of irresistibility. The passage in question does not explicitly address this position, as it only states God’s will and action of drawing, without identifying the possibility of men being able to freely accept or reject God’s loving initiative to bring men unto Himself. A primary way to discover any insight into this investigation will be to see how helkuo is used in the Septuagint (LXX) in regards to YHVH’s past dealings with men in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T). We find in Nehemiah 9:30, “Many years you lasted (helkuo) with them and repeatedly warned them by Your Spirit by the hand of Your prophets, and they did not give ear…”3 The context of this passage within the LXX reveals that YHVH consistently drew and worked to bring Israel unto Himself, but they willfully resisted the helkuo. This gives us clear precedence that the gracious drawing of God can be and has been resisted by the will and actions of men. God could have made Israel irresistibly accept His drawing grace and force them to come and obey His voice, however Scripture demonstrates that He has sovereignly set His economy up to deal with mankind by their willful cooperation to either receive or reject His drawing and longsuffering patience to bring men to Himself.

The Hebrew word from which helkuo is derived, is “masak.” Like the Greek word for draw, it has many meanings based upon its’ context. However, when it comes to YHVH specifically dealing with men, we find the same pattern which helps us to understand why the Greek lexical renderings, each by consensus, posited a gracious drawing – as opposed to the idea of men being dragged into the kingdom of God. We see it used in a clear representation of YHVH’s grace being poured out in declaring,

“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore, I have drawn (masak) you with lovingkindness” (Jer. 31:3).

Brian R With Editing and correcting


In case you did not realize it you are echoing just what i stated

with revelation they can come as v45 shows

John 6:45 (NIV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Seems this revelation may come from the scriptures

John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

they did not believe Christ because they did not believe God


John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
It is enablement. Lol. The means of the drawing. Keep working at it.
 
Good thing civic is here adding his 40 years of expertise on the topic.

It's very bizarre... He only does 4 things now...

1) Posts in such a way as to get himself suspended with far greater frequency;
2) Acts like a cheerleader for his echo chamber ("amen!");
3) Acts like a heckler with pointless one-liners, followed by "oops";
4) presents straw-man arguments against Calvinism he KNOWS are bankrupt, since he has refuted them all himself in his prior life.
 
God was giving to Jesus those that were his

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

those who did not believe the Father naturally do not believe Jesus

You are assuming God gave to Christ men unconditionally selected

but that is not what the bible teaches
you have rejected the bibles teaching for that of your theology







Again those that were the Fathers not men unconditionally selected

You just ignored who it was that was given and assumed unconditionality which is contrary to the bible
The apostles were not pre selected?
 
I agree. You cannot come unless less. Unless God draws you. If and when He draws you you are raised on the last day. It's not that difficult
Apparently it is difficult as we have two streams of interpretation in this thread.
And a couple refusals to define terms in order to nail it down.
If you are comforatable with your interpretation, you should be willing to define "unless"
 
It's very bizarre... He only does 4 things now...

1) Posts in such a way as to get himself suspended with far greater frequency;
2) Acts like a cheerleader for his echo chamber ("amen!");
3) Acts like a heckler with pointless one-liners, followed by "oops";
4) presents straw-man arguments against Calvinism he KNOWS are bankrupt, since he has refuted them all himself in his prior life.
It's amazing the time and effort they put into attacking this verse. What choice do they have really? It cannot possibly mean what it says.
 
Apparently it is difficult as we have two streams of interpretation in this thread.
And a couple refusals to define terms in order to nail it down.
If you are comforatable with your interpretation, you should be willing to define "unless"
It means "except if". Hence no man except he be drawn.

What's next? What us the meaning of is?
 
Seems Jesus believed it was enablement

John 6:65 (NIV) — 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

He stated so on his commentary on John 6:44

Furether no lexixon imagines the drawing of God isc likev the drawing of amindless sword

W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1

• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].

• A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].

• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].

• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)

• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].

• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]

• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]

When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether. Hence, the most accurate meaning of helkuo would be to draw – in the sense of God attracting and enabling people towards Christ. This fits perfectly with both chapter 6, and with 12:32, wherein all of the N.T. Greek lexicons and dictionaries collectively agree, removing any ambiguity or doubt to be considered. Of the theologians who have rendered John 6:44 to exclusively mean drag, they have demonstrated a clear lack of exegetical research and evidence to validate their conclusions. These individuals never appeal to multiple and varied lexical references; wherein, they consistently point to other verses (which we have previously cited) that categorically do not fit the context of John 6 and grossly violate the basic rules of grammar and syntax.

Further examination of the text brings us to the idea of God’s drawing upon men to be understood in the terms of irresistibility. The passage in question does not explicitly address this position, as it only states God’s will and action of drawing, without identifying the possibility of men being able to freely accept or reject God’s loving initiative to bring men unto Himself. A primary way to discover any insight into this investigation will be to see how helkuo is used in the Septuagint (LXX) in regards to YHVH’s past dealings with men in the Hebrew Scriptures (O.T). We find in Nehemiah 9:30, “Many years you lasted (helkuo) with them and repeatedly warned them by Your Spirit by the hand of Your prophets, and they did not give ear…”3 The context of this passage within the LXX reveals that YHVH consistently drew and worked to bring Israel unto Himself, but they willfully resisted the helkuo. This gives us clear precedence that the gracious drawing of God can be and has been resisted by the will and actions of men. God could have made Israel irresistibly accept His drawing grace and force them to come and obey His voice, however Scripture demonstrates that He has sovereignly set His economy up to deal with mankind by their willful cooperation to either receive or reject His drawing and longsuffering patience to bring men to Himself.

The Hebrew word from which helkuo is derived, is “masak.” Like the Greek word for draw, it has many meanings based upon its’ context. However, when it comes to YHVH specifically dealing with men, we find the same pattern which helps us to understand why the Greek lexical renderings, each by consensus, posited a gracious drawing – as opposed to the idea of men being dragged into the kingdom of God. We see it used in a clear representation of YHVH’s grace being poured out in declaring,

“I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore, I have drawn (masak) you with lovingkindness” (Jer. 31:3).

Brian R With Editing and correcting


In case you did not realize it you are echoing just what i stated

with revelation they can come as v45 shows

John 6:45 (NIV) — 45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Seems this revelation may come from the scriptures

John 5:46 (KJV 1900) — 46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

they did not believe Christ because they did not believe God


John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
Amen brother!

Preach it

I love being able to read your response to the ignored one that doesn’t show up 😂
 
Seems Jesus believed it was enablement

John 6:65 (NIV) — 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Translation shopping again?
We've already addressed "helkuo", and what it means.
And it DOESN'T mean "enable".

He stated so on his commentary on John 6:44

Furether no lexixon imagines the drawing of God isc likev the drawing of amindless sword

Nice straw-man.
Nobody has said it means "drawing of a mindless sword".

W.E. Vine This less violent significance, usually present in helkō, but always absent from surō, is seen in the metaphorical use of helkō, to signify drawing by inward power, by Divine impulse, John 6:44; 12:32. So in the Sept., e.g., S. of S., 1:4, and Jer. 31:3, “with lovingkindness have I drawn thee1

Another straw-man, since nobody has claimed the drawing required "violence".

• Spiros Zodhiates, Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible, “Helkuo is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids].

Red herring.... Whether it was drawing by love, or force, it is STILL "drawing".
And straw-man, since nobody has claimed God draws by "force".

* A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature: Helkuo – “to draw or attract a person in the direction of values for inner life” attract J 6:44″ [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker].

Amen!
Perfectly consistent with Calvinism.
What's your point?

• The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament: helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce].

Amen!
Perfectly consistent with Calvinism.
What's your point?

• Theological Dictionary of the New Testament: “There is no thought here of force or magic.

Straw-man. Nobody claimed the drawing was "of force or magic".

The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God or Christ which goes out to all (12:32) but without which no one can come (6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic” [Kittel, one-vol., abridged)

I guess your "Free-will-coloured goggles" caused you to be blind to the word, "compulsion". You make our point for us!

• The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament: “met., to draw, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie].

Amen!
Perfectly consistent with Calvinism.
What's your point?

• The Complete Word Study Dictionary New testament: Helkuo – “To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force… Is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh 6:44; 12:32, to draw or induce to come) [Spiros Zodhiates]

Straw-man.
Nobody claims the drawing was by "force".

• The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament: “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)”. [Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller]

Amen!
Perfectly consistent with Calvinism.
What's your point?

When helkuo is examined by the best attested Greek scholarship, as used in John 6, we find that the consistent rendering does not in any way determine its usage to mean “drag” or “force”, and actually militates against that meaning altogether.

Staw-man.
No Calvinist claims the drawing in 6:44 means "drag" or "force".

John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

And once again, you quote Scripture which refutes your view.
 
God was giving to Jesus those that were his

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:11 (KJV 1900) — 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

those who did not believe the Father naturally do not believe Jesus

You are assuming God gave to Christ men unconditionally selected

but that is not what the bible teaches
you have rejected the bibles teaching for that of your theology

Again those that were the Fathers not men unconditionally selected

You just ignored who it was that was given and assumed unconditionality which is contrary to the bible
Go Brother it's your birthday... 🕺...you got this 📣Cheer-Cheer
 
pt3


These two are actually somewhat complementary...
No one can come unles the Father draws him.
But all those who are drawn/given WILL come.
There are no, "drawn but do not come".

37b and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
44b And I will raise him up on the last day.

And these are definitely parallel iterations of the same teaching.
Even Arminians are agreed that those who are raised up are the ones who (allegedly "choose" of their own Libertarian Free Will to) come.

Now, I will do something the Arminians NEVER do. I will consider the opposing viewpoint to see if it holds any water. (Spoiler alert: It doesn't.). Arminians can't admit that "giving" and "drawing" refer to the same action by God, so they have to claim they mean different things. Since one (giving) invariably leads to them coming, but the other (drawing) is claimed not to guarantee coming, they must be different. And the giving must happen before the drawing. So let's see what this gives us:

Arminianism:

1) God "draws" (everyone?) v. 44a
2) Some "choose" to "come" by "deciding" to hear and learn (v. 45)
3) God "gives" ALL those who "choose" back to Jesus (v. 37)
4) They will all be raised up, and not cast out (v. 37)

Remember these are those that are the Father's not men unconditionally selected

John 17:6 (KJV 1900) — 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

those who hear and learn from the Father come to Jesus

those who do not believe the father do not come


John 8:45–47 (KJV 1900) — 45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

now to correct your false Arminian scenario

Arminianism:

1) God "draws" (everyone?) v. 44a
2) Some "choose" to "come" by "deciding" to hear and learn (v. 45)
3) God "gives" ALL those who "choose" back to Jesus (v. 37)
tilt

God draws by revelation check

2 some believe the father check - they hear and they learn

3 those who believe the father come to jesus - these are those given

4 jesus raises them up on the last day
 
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